Just How Restrictive Is It To Work In Thailand?

[Tomtomtom69]

Thailand is so restrictive on employment,That if A farang owns the bar he is not allowed to sweep the floor.

Yes that's sad but true. I always get a kick when I see a westerner work in a bar in Cambodia, Vietnam, Laos or China. But in all of those countries it's perfectly legal! In fact, it's even kind of expected. If you go to a western style bar and restaurant in say China and no westerners are visible, people would think it's a scam!

[Tomtomtom69]

OK we are talking about galleries here but the only other possibility to avoid the whole Thai company and employees requirement is to open something inside an industrial estate. You could employ not a single Thai, do whatever you want but essentially industrial estates are usually used for manufacturing something for export. However, an industrial estate still allows you to sell to the local market with minimal restrictions - however you're looking at a minimum monthly rental of around 100,000 Baht here. In a free zone, everything is for export so that's a bit more restrictive.

[Tomtomtom69]

Is all volunteer work in thailand subject to a work permit? I know several Tourist police and police volunteers who do this work without obtaining a work permit also have never been asked buy the stations they work at to produce one

Maybe these people actually have another day job and only do the volunteering thing on the side. The only full time "volunteer" that I know of (although I'm sure he's not the only one in Thailand) is this New Zealand guy who runs the Ruam Katanyu ambulance service. He's known as a "body snatcher" Marko Cunningham is his name and I've met him in person at an international Chamber of Commerce networking evening. However, he's not doing well financially these days, in fact, I think he had to get rid of his pickup because the donations he was getting were not enough to keep running the service. Poor guy, but I think he is still in Thailand but racing around by motorcycle instead!

[asiaexpat]

If the OP is an American then an Amity Treaty sole proprietorship is in theory and option, as well as any other US form of business. It can be done without a lawyer, but without a mentor (Thai with influence)getting registered would be difficult. Thai lawyers have help make Amity Treaty company registration difficult and time consuming for their own reasons. I managed to get registered without a lawyer, but it took several years and a Thai mentor to get it done. Not really worth it for the OP if a local gallery likes the work and will provide support.

[Mario2008]

Is all volunteer work in thailand subject to a work permit? I know several Tourist police and police volunteers who do this work without obtaining a work permit also have never been asked buy the stations they work at to produce one

Maybe these people actually have another day job and only do the volunteering thing on the side. The only full time "volunteer" that I know of (although I'm sure he's not the only one in Thailand) is this New Zealand guy who runs the Ruam Katanyu ambulance service. He's known as a "body snatcher" Marko Cunningham is his name and I've met him in person at an international Chamber of Commerce networking evening. However, he's not doing well financially these days, in fact, I think he had to get rid of his pickup because the donations he was getting were not enough to keep running the service. Poor guy, but I think he is still in Thailand but racing around by motorcycle instead!

As siad, all volunteer work requires a work permit. Even if it is just for 4 hours a week.

[Soutpeel]

Can a foreigner just turn up and work legally for themselves without registering a company in your own country ?

If they're in the country legally... - It will depend.

i.e. In the UK, if you're there on a settlement visa (i.e. spouse), then yes, you'd be allowed to work. (Your visa says whether you can work or not - you don't need a separate work permit).

For people on student visas, it will depend on when they were originally issued. i.e. A couple of years ago, there was an issue with "students" never attending classes and only working, so new student visas generally don't allow working, but if you originally got your visa when working was allowed, you're grandfathered in...

For people on holiday visas, you're generally not allowed to work.

If you're working for yourself and have no employees, then yes, you can be a sole trader, and you don't have to set up a company or anything. You're simply allowed to trade on your own behalf.

There are some caveats:

If your turnover is high enough, or expected to be high enough, you would have to register for VAT.

In the 70s, they introduced rules that stated that if you work through an agency you could no longer be a sole trader, and had to either be an employee of the agency, or employed through your own company, so would have to set up a company. But even there, you can own the company outright, there's no rules on foreign ownership.

Also, in the UK, work isn't as severely regulated as it is here. - i.e. Nobody would consider sitting painting landscapes as working (except if it was on commission, so there was a payment involved at the time). Similarly, does Thailand even have the concept of Pick Your Own, where a farmer will let members of the public onto his fields to collect fruit that they then pay for. (They get REALLY fresh fruit at a decent price - he doesn't have to pay people to pick it, or pay a middle man). i.e. That wouldn't be considered work in the UK (as you're not getting paid for it), but I'm pretty sure it would be illegal in Thailand if the farmer were to let a foreigner pick fruit.

In Thailand the rules for what's considered work are so ridiculous that simply mowing my own (wife's) lawn is apparently breaking the law as it's written.

All this is correct, but isnt one of the key differences between the UK and Thailand is that the UK is realivity difficult to get a long term legal visa ie they are very selective who they let in and in Thailand they will just about let anyone in....If you imposed the rules imposed in the UK in Thailand, you would most likely find large number of people currently living here and complaining about the work rules being unfair, wouldnt even qualify for a visa in the first place to live in Thailand long term

Having been through work permit/visa processes in many countries over the years due to nature of the job I do, Thailand is actually one of the easier ones to work legally if you qualify

[Soutpeel]

Can a foreigner just turn up and work legally for themselves without registering a company in your own country ?

Indeed. People expect that work permits in their home countries are somehow easier.

Work in the USA .. Not legally - but in the USA we have about 20 million illegal aliens who are working and owning businesses and property. They ignore almost all the laws. Basically - if you a bit cunning - no matter where you come from - if you want to live and work in the USA Illegally - you can and you will likely to get away with it for years and years If caught nothing much happens.

Getting a proper legal "work permit" in the US takes a lot of time, a significant amount of money and lawyers are involved at every stage of the process...know this as a fact as went through this some years back when I worked there, from start to finish the whole process took nearly 4 -5 months to sort out and and think the company I was working for spent around US$ 5000-8000 getting everything in place

[Soutpeel]

The ability to freelance in any field of endeavor in Thailand is very limited. I suggest you find a Thai owned gallery and make an arrangement with the to employ you and support a work permit.

Ok but let me ask this question...why should someone who is neither a legal migrant/PR or citizen of country be allowed a free lance WP in the first instance ? In the case of the OP if he found a Thai gallery as suggested, getting a temporary WP (14 days validity) should be realtively easy to get....

[GottaGo]

Lots of silly stuff keeps coming up here.

Yes in theory required. In practice go ahead and show your work and you most likely won't have a problem, worst case you get deported so what?

Convincing a gallery to go to the trouble and expense of getting you a WP is unrealistically hard even if you're an internationally famous artist ain't gonna happen unless the owner is a close personal friend or you make it worth their while with megabucks.

Anyone who already has a work permit can volunteer or freelance whatever without concern, subject to the caveats I posted earlier.

In practice genuine volunteering on an informal basis won't be a problem either except for tourist-infested areas where the cops look for backhanders upcountry not an issue at all.

And all the comparisons with "back home", getting married and having that-country-citizen children always guarantees the right to work and operate a business, just takes a while to get the paperwork done. Not the case here, so yes much more restrictive.

Thailand just isn't willing to open its doors to foreigners, and to that extent it's fair to call it a xenophobic culture.

[Kalbo]

What about my head office sending me to do some work in a subsidiary based in Thailand? Do I still need a different visa? So far I have been using tourist visa.

100% illegal. You need a Non- Immigrant visa plus work permit

[arthurwait]

I don't think you can freelance on the side if you have a work permit as an employee for a company.

And I doubt very much the OP would get bothered for just painting without selling.

[Soutpeel]

Lots of silly stuff keeps coming up here.

Yes in theory required. In practice go ahead and show your work and you most likely won't have a problem, worst case you get deported so what?

Convincing a gallery to go to the trouble and expense of getting you a WP is unrealistically hard even if you're an internationally famous artist ain't gonna happen unless the owner is a close personal friend or you make it worth their while with megabucks.

Anyone who already has a work permit can volunteer or freelance whatever without concern, subject to the caveats I posted earlier.

In practice genuine volunteering on an informal basis won't be a problem either except for tourist-infested areas where the cops look for backhanders upcountry not an issue at all.

And all the comparisons with "back home", getting married and having that-country-citizen children always guarantees the right to work and operate a business, just takes a while to get the paperwork done. Not the case here, so yes much more restrictive.

Thailand just isn't willing to open its doors to foreigners, and to that extent it's fair to call it a xenophobic culture.

"Convincing a gallery to go to the trouble and expense of getting you a WP is unrealistically hard even if you're an internationally famous artist ain't gonna happen unless the owner is a close personal friend or you make it worth their while with megabucks"

A temporary WP is issued free and good for 14 days and very little trouble as regards application..a single page application only

[Soutpeel]

I don't think you can freelance on the side if you have a work permit as an employee for a company.

And I doubt very much the OP would get bothered for just painting without selling.

You cant unless the company agrees to it, and if you did without their agreement you could also be in line for automatic termination if your "freelance" activites are in the same business area as the company your working for...

[samran]

The ability to freelance in any field of endeavor in Thailand is very limited. I suggest you find a Thai owned gallery and make an arrangement with the to employ you and support a work permit.

Ok but let me ask this question...why should someone who is neither a legal migrant/PR or citizen of country be allowed a free lance WP in the first instance ? In the case of the OP if he found a Thai gallery as suggested, getting a temporary WP (14 days validity) should be realtively easy to get....

Soutpeel,

You've spoken of these 14 day work permits a few times. Any chance of providing a link to these and perhaps your experience in getting them? By the sounds of it, might be useful to the wider community and the certainly seems to be a demand for them.

[Soutpeel]

The ability to freelance in any field of endeavor in Thailand is very limited. I suggest you find a Thai owned gallery and make an arrangement with the to employ you and support a work permit.

Ok but let me ask this question...why should someone who is neither a legal migrant/PR or citizen of country be allowed a free lance WP in the first instance ? In the case of the OP if he found a Thai gallery as suggested, getting a temporary WP (14 days validity) should be realtively easy to get....

Soutpeel,

You've spoken of these 14 day work permits a few times. Any chance of providing a link to these and perhaps your experience in getting them? By the sounds of it, might be useful to the wider community and the certainly seems to be a demand for them.

They are availible at all the DOL's, the company applying for one needs to be a Thai registered entity obviously, its a single form to fill in and the turn around is about 24 hours, you dont get a blue book, but a letter giving the dates of validity.

The company I work for uses them quite a lot bringing people in for emergency repairs for O&G although I am not directly involved in the applications, but from what I have seen a very quick process.

The company concerned sends a letter of invitation to the DOL...ie person XyZ is required in Thailand for a period not exceeding 14 days to carry out XXXXX...etc, single page form filled in and faxed to the appropriate DOL...return fax is the temporary WP...."person XYZ, passport number is permitted to work in the Kingdom for a period not exceeding 14 days for the purposes of......"

From what I understand the person needs to be on a non-imm type visa, either O (not retirement) or a B and you can only be issued 1 temporary WP a year, but with that being said know of people who have had multiples in a single year, so the number issued to a single person may have something to do with who is asking for it, ie the standing of the company concerned and why they need it

I will see if I can find an official link to temporary WP's and post

[CHRISTIANa9]

You should have a non immigrant B visa for any company type business and doing work would require a work permit - even if only a temporary emergency type permit.

Humm looks like my sub in Thailand got to do some work for me. Thanks for the info.

[samran]

The ability to freelance in any field of endeavor in Thailand is very limited. I suggest you find a Thai owned gallery and make an arrangement with the to employ you and support a work permit.

Ok but let me ask this question...why should someone who is neither a legal migrant/PR or citizen of country be allowed a free lance WP in the first instance ? In the case of the OP if he found a Thai gallery as suggested, getting a temporary WP (14 days validity) should be realtively easy to get....

Soutpeel,

You've spoken of these 14 day work permits a few times. Any chance of providing a link to these and perhaps your experience in getting them? By the sounds of it, might be useful to the wider community and the certainly seems to be a demand for them.

They are availible at all the DOL's, the company applying for one needs to be a Thai registered entity obviously, its a single form to fill in and the turn around is about 24 hours, you dont get a blue book, but a letter giving the dates of validity.

The company I work for uses them quite a lot bringing people in for emergency repairs for O&G although I am not directly involved in the applications, but from what I have seen a very quick process.

The company concerned sends a letter of invitation to the DOL...ie person XyZ is required in Thailand for a period not exceeding 14 days to carry out XXXXX...etc, single page form filled in and faxed to the appropriate DOL...return fax is the temporary WP...."person XYZ, passport number is permitted to work in the Kingdom for a period not exceeding 14 days for the purposes of......"

From what I understand the person needs to be on a non-imm type visa, either O (not retirement) or a B and you can only be issued 1 temporary WP a year, but with that being said know of people who have had multiples in a single year, so the number issued to a single person may have something to do with who is asking for it, ie the standing of the company concerned and why they need it

I will see if I can find an official link to temporary WP's and post

thanks. Very interesting, including for me.

[alanferdi]

As you can tell from the reply from the Phuket Provincial Employment, pretty restrictive....................

In thailand you are expected to be Thai.... old and sit around till death, keeping yourself occupied is not morally correct in thailand...Just look at the lengths you would have to go just to be an artist...Open a company.. invest money in thailand and then paint a few pictures and kick the bucket....thats Thais retirement plan for foreigners wishing to retire here... put your money in our banks... 800.000 - ca. 20.000 Euros get almost peanuts on 9interest.... and watch it dwindle away slowly....Be realistic...this is not a retirement haven ....unless you prefer to have a second spring and be a sugar daddy.... For an intellectual its a rip off!

[alanferdi]

Working in Thailand.

First you need to enter this country on a business visa or on a tourist visa, pension visa etc etc and then exchange it for a non immigrant B visa.

Then you need a company that will work out your work permit. The minimum payment for an European is1000 Euros. You have to pay tax on this which works out in a year somewhere between 37.000 - 40.000. Then every year you need to renew your work permit, and your legal status... the proper way is cheap...but you get harrassed in a jungle of legal papers and definitions that seem to be redifined with each meeting. Leaving you to go to a visa one stop office... ypu pay more to have it done and thus providing Thailand with jobs! if you can call this one.... it only proves the system is not workable....and hence someone who understands Thai needs to do it for you.....

Looking for a place to work - Choose Singapore or Malaysia...they have their rules...but they work! no stories and endless running around with a tail.

[pete66]

Like people say, its a risk. If you have reasons you want/need to stay in this country, then don't do it, as it only takes one "enemy" to snitch on you, and you'll end up being booted out of the country, or paying so much to stay you'll wish you hadn't considered the idea in the first place.

Having said that .... as others have mentioned, you could easily team up with a Thai to actually do the business side. Just depends if you know any Thais you would trust with that ........... certainly nobody that could ever turn into an "enemy".

In my case, the list always somehow reduces down to my children, your mileage may vary

[kristophon]

is this for real?

[retell]

Yes, you need to have a work permit. Whether your work is full time,

part time, paid, or unpaid, you need a work permit to do it.

Even if you want to exhibit your paintings in a gallery without selling them, you need a work permit.

Talk about a repressive, xenophobic society. The fact that one can not even do something for FREE in Thailand without a work permit shows you just how much they really hate foreigners. You can spin it anyway you want if it helps you sleep at night, but not allowing someone to do something they love (a hobby) for free is repressive and stems from pure hatred and fear that you may do it better than they can.

I remember reading that immigration in Phuket arrested some volunteers who came to help during the tsunami because they didn't have work permits to help in that time of desperate need. That is both unbelievable and shameful.

This and your next post are talking about 2 cities with a very corrupt reputation and you are tarring all Thais with the same brush and you are calling others xenophobic.

How does anyone know if you are doing this work/ hobby for free or actually recieving money for it ?

He can paint as a hobby without a work permit, but he can't make money from it or maybe do it for someone else, but if it's a business or looks like it might be a business he can't. As said an honest immigration officer would just tell him to get on with it.

he can paint as a hobby but he cannot sell or even give away to a foreigner or thai inside thailand

[Soutpeel]

Working in Thailand.

First you need to enter this country on a business visa or on a tourist visa, pension visa etc etc and then exchange it for a non immigrant B visa.

Then you need a company that will work out your work permit. The minimum payment for an European is1000 Euros. You have to pay tax on this which works out in a year somewhere between 37.000 - 40.000. Then every year you need to renew your work permit, and your legal status... the proper way is cheap...but you get harrassed in a jungle of legal papers and definitions that seem to be redifined with each meeting. Leaving you to go to a visa one stop office... ypu pay more to have it done and thus providing Thailand with jobs! if you can call this one.... it only proves the system is not workable....and hence someone who understands Thai needs to do it for you.....

Looking for a place to work - Choose Singapore or Malaysia...they have their rules...but they work! no stories and endless running around with a tail.

so many inaccuracies in this post..where to start ?

1. A business visa and a non-imm B are one and the same thing, futher one doesnt have to be on a non-imm B to be issued a WP, a Non-imm O for marriage also is acceptable, "Retirement visa's" are not

2. there is no minimum payment specified to be issued a WP...your talking about the extension of stay which is an immigration requirement not a DOL requirement

3. The "one stop" office is not any more expensive than normal listed prices

The system is workable, as is proven by the numbers of farangs who actually do have WP's and have done so for many years, in comparision with some other countries I have worked in the Thai system is pretty easy and straight forward, once you understand how the system works

[Tatsujin]

You can do anything you want in this country if you make the choice not to follow the law and are aware of the potential consequences. Son nom na.

[sirchai]

Couldn't the foreigner just get employment, working for a Thai doing a similar business? Guess there's always a hole in the fence, called Thailand.-

[chrisartist]

I suggest that you just paint your pictures and keep a low profile (no talking about it and showing off the art to the neighbours.) Then, when you've got enough good stuff, cart it all off to Hong Kong and have an exhibition, where you will get top rate for your work if it's any good (and if it's not, there's no point having an exhibition.) Finally, if the exhibition goes well, (i) cultivate contacts in Hong Kong who will promote your work and find buyers so that you can paint here and send the paintings over there, and (ii) set up a bank account in your home country, set up a website in your home country, sell your work on the internet and have your patrons pay into the bank account in your home country.

The Thai attitudes to work show clearly that they want you to either work for them as a slave for peanuts, or not work, spend money and be a vegetable. So ignore them, do what you like as long as it's reasonable (e.g. painting pictures or doing academic research) and don't tell anybody about it.

[slipperx]

Can a foreigner just turn up and work legally for themselves without registering a company in your own country ?

No but I suspect they could spend their spare time painting if they so choose. Maybe he can take his paintings and sell them in Vietnam or somewhere as long as he employs someone to lift them and transport them for him - mind you with the transport costs in Phuket, probably better just to burn them - hmm - wonder if he needs a work permit to do that.

As for him getting a work permit and starting a Thai company to do it and then giving half of it to some other Thai person and employing five more Thais to assist him hold his brushes and paints - well I guess he had better be a pretty good painter.

"Hey, how do you spend your spare time now you have retired after a lifetime of slog and paying taxes?"

"Why, I just paint!"

"Wow - can I have a look?"

"Oh sorry, not allowed I need a work permit to exhibit!"

"Oh"

"Yes - Oh!"

Edited June 4, 2013 by slipperx

[slipperx]

Couldn't the foreigner just get employment, working for a Thai doing a similar business? Guess there's always a hole in the fence, called Thailand.-

As long as the Thai employs five other Thais and is willing to go through the whole work permit procedure - yes! They don;t even bother doing that for a lot of the foreign teachers here and they need them a lot!

[slipperx]

Can a foreigner just turn up and work legally for themselves without registering a company in your own country ?

If they're in the country legally... - It will depend.

i.e. In the UK, if you're there on a settlement visa (i.e. spouse), then yes, you'd be allowed to work. (Your visa says whether you can work or not - you don't need a separate work permit).

For people on student visas, it will depend on when they were originally issued. i.e. A couple of years ago, there was an issue with "students" never attending classes and only working, so new student visas generally don't allow working, but if you originally got your visa when working was allowed, you're grandfathered in...

For people on holiday visas, you're generally not allowed to work.

If you're working for yourself and have no employees, then yes, you can be a sole trader, and you don't have to set up a company or anything. You're simply allowed to trade on your own behalf.

There are some caveats:

If your turnover is high enough, or expected to be high enough, you would have to register for VAT.

In the 70s, they introduced rules that stated that if you work through an agency you could no longer be a sole trader, and had to either be an employee of the agency, or employed through your own company, so would have to set up a company. But even there, you can own the company outright, there's no rules on foreign ownership.

Also, in the UK, work isn't as severely regulated as it is here. - i.e. Nobody would consider sitting painting landscapes as working (except if it was on commission, so there was a payment involved at the time). Similarly, does Thailand even have the concept of Pick Your Own, where a farmer will let members of the public onto his fields to collect fruit that they then pay for. (They get REALLY fresh fruit at a decent price - he doesn't have to pay people to pick it, or pay a middle man). i.e. That wouldn't be considered work in the UK (as you're not getting paid for it), but I'm pretty sure it would be illegal in Thailand if the farmer were to let a foreigner pick fruit.

In Thailand the rules for what's considered work are so ridiculous that simply mowing my own (wife's) lawn is apparently breaking the law as it's written.

Wasn't there some guy arrested and carted off for painting his fence not long back?

[chrisartist]

Can a foreigner just turn up and work legally for themselves without registering a company in your own country ?

No but I suspect they could spend their spare time painting if they so choose. Maybe he can take his paintings and sell them in Vietnam or somewhere as long as he employs someone to lift them and transport them for him - mind you with the transport costs in Phuket, probably better just to burn them - hmm - wonder if he needs a work permit to do that.

As for him getting a work permit and starting a Thai company to do it and then giving half of it to some other Thai person and employing five more Thais to assist him hold his brushes and paints - well I guess he had better be a pretty good painter.

"Hey, how do you spend your spare time now you have retired after a lifetime of slog and paying taxes?"

"Why, I just paint!"

"Wow - can I have a look?"

"Oh sorry, not allowed I need a work permit to exhibit!"

"Oh"

"Yes - Oh!"

No problem with transport. Just roll the paintings up, put them in a tube and carry them on your back. Get them mounted and framed at the destination. Alternatively, send them by air mail. Again, not expensive if you have them framed at the destination.