Ppr Piping In Krabi

[reflectionx]

Does anyone know plumbers in Krabi that can properly install PPR pipes? Looking for someone who has good experience. Our builder has only installed them once in a house, and he used the regular PVC glue, WTH

Thanks

[fdimike]

I'm in Udon Thani so I cannot help with a plumber. However, our local Home Mart has this type of pipe available and will provide the necessary heat tool to join the pipe. They may also be a good source for a local plumber.

[fdimike]

I meant to say your local Home Mart may also have the correct equipment (like ours here in Udon Thani) to install this kind of pipe.

[reflectionx]

Well, I would've done it myself, but I won't be there for another few months, and the piping has to be done soon. We are now trying to find people who do commercial (hotel) construction, as many hotels use hot water pipings

[fdimike]

Understand. I thought you were here in Thailand.

If you have not already bought the pipe here is a great alternative which is super easy to install.

http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/743519072/pex_al_pex_pipe_for_hot.html

We used the orange (hot water) colored pipe to install a central hot water system in our large 2 story home. The pipe is flexible which means fewer fittings and anyone can install the stuff with normal tools/skills. The stainless steel fittings come in both compression (removable) and crimped (non-removable) styles. The fittings come with double "O" rings to ensure a leak free installation. The pipe is available in Bangkok. Just a thought.

[reflectionx]

Ha, I thought PEX was not available in Thailand. That's what I have in Canada, and I love it because I can fix it myself (plumbing services are hyper expensive, just to show up they charge $100ish). Well, having drywall does help with piping repairs though - easier to cut than to brake the wall ...

But again, I need someone who knows his stuff, so I don't have to break wall if it's not done properly and starts leaking! I don't really care about the piping type as long it won't starting leak due to poor installation ...

[fdimike]

Pipe Catalog.pdfPipe Catalog.pdfI

Here it's called PAP. I guess that's the same thing you refer to. It's a sandwich affair of PEX, Aluminum, PERT, PEX (hot water). Large radius bends are no problem (it's supplied in a 100m coil). Tighter bends require a pipe bender to avoid kinks.

Installation is a snap even for the less than capable laborers we have up here in Isaan. My builder would only use the crimp on fittings for fear of leaks. The fear is really unfounded as I used a compression fittings to refit the inadequate 1/4" supply lines from the hot water tank heater without any problems. All fittings come with a double "O" ringI believe even a child could install this stuff with crimping help from an adult. There's absolutely nothing to it and the number of fittings are way down due to flexible nature of the pipe.

We used a simple standard pipe cutter (the kind with the cutting wheel inside) to make the cuts which were a breeze.

What I'm getting is you don't really need any special skills to install this stuff.

BTW: Drywall is also available here. We used Superblock (lightweight aerated concrete block) for the walls and SHOULD have used drywall inside but my wife was afraid it would attract termites which are a big problem in this part of the world. We did use it in a couple of places and installed double Superblock walls in others.

For what's it's worth fiberglass ceiling insulation is also available here in both 3" and 6". However, even using the fiberglass with a blown foam barrier under the roof tiles is only partially effective without adequate attice ventilation which for the most part is unheard of here unless you install a peak roof. Hip style roofs normally go unventilated except under the eves. We used an Australian product called Dry Tech to seal the roof peaks. The stuff allows air to pass through but not water. If I had my way I would install a solar powered roof ventilation like we used in Florida to get rid of the heat which is significant.

Sorry I didn't mean to bore you with all this. I'm going to try an attach the pipe catalog for your use.

[reflectionx]

Pipe Catalog.pdfPipe Catalog.pdfI

Here it's called PAP. I guess that's the same thing you refer to. It's a sandwich affair of PEX, Aluminum, PERT, PEX (hot water). Large radius bends are no problem (it's supplied in a 100m coil). Tighter bends require a pipe bender to avoid kinks.

Installation is a snap even for the less than capable laborers we have up here in Isaan. My builder would only use the crimp on fittings for fear of leaks. The fear is really unfounded as I used a compression fittings to refit the inadequate 1/4" supply lines from the hot water tank heater without any problems. All fittings come with a double "O" ringI believe even a child could install this stuff with crimping help from an adult. There's absolutely nothing to it and the number of fittings are way down due to flexible nature of the pipe.

We used a simple standard pipe cutter (the kind with the cutting wheel inside) to make the cuts which were a breeze.

What I'm getting is you don't really need any special skills to install this stuff.

BTW: Drywall is also available here. We used Superblock (lightweight aerated concrete block) for the walls and SHOULD have used drywall inside but my wife was afraid it would attract termites which are a big problem in this part of the world. We did use it in a couple of places and installed double Superblock walls in others.

For what's it's worth fiberglass ceiling insulation is also available here in both 3" and 6". However, even using the fiberglass with a blown foam barrier under the roof tiles is only partially effective without adequate attice ventilation which for the most part is unheard of here unless you install a peak roof. Hip style roofs normally go unventilated except under the eves. We used an Australian product called Dry Tech to seal the roof peaks. The stuff allows air to pass through but not water. If I had my way I would install a solar powered roof ventilation like we used in Florida to get rid of the heat which is significant.

Sorry I didn't mean to bore you with all this. I'm going to try an attach the pipe catalog for your use.

Appreciated. Would it be possible to run the pipes without any fittings inside the walls? If so, I might have the builder run larger PVC pipes, and the run the PEX inside the PVC. It would also be easier to replace if needed. What is the cost of the 1/2" hot and cold pipes and fittings?

We were able to find few plumbers that claim to have experience with PPR; now need to figure out who is telling the truth and does good job

[fdimike]

I can't help you with the cost for PAP because we installed the system about 6 years ago. The supplier's name and phone number are on the back of the catalog I sent you. We ran

1/2" hot water line throughout the house from the main tank thereby providing hot water at all the sinks. We also wrapped the hot water line with black foam insulation which they use for the a/c lines. All our lines run through the ceilings on the first floor and inside the wall as necessary. The line then goes through the 2nd floor to the sinks, tub etc. We used schedule 13.5 PVC for all the cold water supply lines. 13.5 is more than capable of hgandling the pressures. It's not perfect but ok.

I'm not sure why you would want to run the PAP inside a larger PVC unless you're worried about someone driving a nail or screw through it. However, be that as it may you certainly could do one inside the other.

If I was to do it all over again (perish the thought) I would install sheetrock inside or use double Superblosck outside walls and run the water/electrical lines through the space between the walls. I would also ditch the standard PVC for the white cold water PAP lines.

[reflectionx]

I'm not sure why you would want to run the PAP inside a larger PVC unless you're worried about someone driving a nail or screw through it. However, be that as it may you certainly could do one inside the other.

.

If he runs the PVC while I am not there, I would be able to run the PEX by myself when I get there later on Also, it would make it much easier to replace piping in the future

Not worried about insulation as Krabi is hot all year round

[fdimike]

If I understand you right the builder will run the PVC line (hot & cold) and you will run the PEX by yourself later? I don't think that would be possible because the PEX is not that flexible to make small radius turns (90deg) while inside the PVC. You will need access to the bare walls/ceilings in order to run the lines. Once the PEX is installed/hung you can then install your drywall/ceilings. I think you will have to make a decision as to what type piping to use before the inside walls/ceilings are installed.

Additionally, Thai builders are not in the habit of pressure testing the lines so unless you're a gambler and like to play craps I would suggest you insist on them pressure testing the system before installing the inner walls/ceilings with someone you trust monitoring the tsting. My builder's idea of testing was a 5 minute affair which I quickly corrected to 1 day.

You should also understand that most builders do NOT know a thing about using acetone to clean PVC pipe before joining/gluing. Acetone is also difficult to find around here. I managed to locate some at a beauty supply shop in pint size bottles (used to remove nail polish) and then I had to stand over them to make sure they used enough of the stuff to properly clean the pipe and fittings. I have since located large quantities through a local college which uses it to clean lab equipment.

I'm not sure I understand your comment re: insulation. I understand Krabi is hot however if you plan to run your lines between the outter wall and inner wall you will face a significant temperature difference assuming you use aircon on the inside of the house. The difference in temps will lead to condensation forming on the lines (very high humidity) and also a loss in temperature (hot water line). This is especially true if you intend to use the ac all the time as we did in Florida and do here now. We have a large 2 story house and run the ac daily throughout.

I don't know what materials you used on the outter walls so it's hard to make a call regarding insulation on the water lines/ceilings/attic/roof.

[reflectionx]

Ok did some more research. It seems that the most widely available is the "pimaflex" pipe, which turned out to be PERT-AL-PERT pipe. Similar to PEX-AL-PEX. The PERT advantage seems to be greater flexibilty.

My understanding is that the "AL" layer is not neccessary for hot/cold water system unless used for heating system. But it does not hurt to have it (just paying more for feature that is not really needed).

PERT-AL-PERT pipe goes for about 90 baht. comes with 2 types of fittings - press and push. The push fittings are DIY, and I am reluctant to use them. The press fittings require special tool, which is sold for 15 000 baht. So I won't go this road.

I have few questions about your PAP experince. The fittings on the catalog you've attached seem to be the "press" style. Did you have to purchase crimping tool for the fittings?

Also, what is the max bend radius? I don't want to have any fittings inside walls as I'd rather have straight end-to-end run (e.g. manifold to mixer)

Do you remember if the pipe was made in Germany or Europe?

Thanks

[fdimike]

The pipe we used was made/supplied from China to the best of my knowledge. The company uses German made machinery/technology in the production. Here's the web site:

http://www.ginde.com/en/zhanshi2f0.asp

We bought it through supplier in Bangkok after seeing it displayed at a Home Show there. Once I saw it I knew that it answered all our needs to run the hot water throughout the house. I think this may be a good phone number for the supplier: 66 2 714 4299 (8 lines), 66 2 714 4121 66 2 714 4122. Fax: 662 714 4134

I believe I sent you the entire catalog which shows 2 kinds of fittings: 1. Press Fittings (crimp on) pgs 5-7, 2. Compression Fittings pgs 8 - 9.

The builder insisted on using the press fittings because he was afraid of a leak. However, both "Press On" (crimp style) and Compresion style feature double "O" rings for security. I would have no problem installing Compression style fittings through the house. As I've already used them (compression DIY) to install the hot water tank into the system.

The crimping tool the builder used was not new. I suspect he may have obtained it on loan from the supplier.

Bends: You can easily bend the 1/2" hot water line to 90 deg. (90 deg Electrial bend as opposed to a 90 deg water bend). It's best to use a pipe bender to avoid kinks especially when try to bend to 90 deg.

We used a minimum of fittings choosing to bend the pipe instead. We used fittings when exiting the wall for connection to sinks etc and going up to the second floor etc. I can tell you ALL the fittings were of high quality heavy duty brass with what appears to be a stainless steel plating

I can only tell you what we were told by the rep at the Home Show. Both hot and cold water lines have AL in the sandwich with the difference being the plastic ( PERT/PEX -hot, HDPE/PEX - cold).

I don't know where you're getting your pricing from but I would check with the supplier in Bangkok to determine the current price here in Thailand from Ginde.

I hope this helps.

Regards

Mike

[reflectionx]

The pricing I gave above was for the pimaflex multipipe, which in fact is PERT-AL-PERT pipe (http://www.pimatec.com/pipe_en.htm). The difference with the pipe you used is that the outer layer PERT, thus it's more flexible. Also, it's made in Germany.

I contacted the company on the calatog you provided, and was quoted the following prices:

hot water pipe, 1/2" - 82 baht

cold water pipe, 1/2" - 68 baht.

Pipe installation tools

1. Reamer / Beveller => metal - Baht 320.-/pc. , plastic - Baht 70.-/pc.

2. Pipe cutter - Baht 337.-/pc.

3. Press Clamp (for installing press fittings)

- for 1/2" - Baht 1,750.-/pc

Still waiting for them to get back to me with a quote on fittings/manifolds.

[fdimike]

The pipe we used is from Ginde. I know because I still have some left over clearly marked Ginde Made in China. If you look at the Ginde site I sent you and click on the pipe section you'll see that the pipe is made in China using German machinery and technology. Now that's the pipe we used. I don't know what the supplier is importing these days.

We used a standard "C" shaped pipe cutter (with a cutting wheel) which comes with a reamer to handle the cuts. The workers used a standard pipe bender to do the 90 deg bends.

I assume the press clamp you're referring to is what we Yanks call a crimping tool. The prices seems very reasonable.

I assume the pipe price is per meter.

I looked at the site you sent me and it seems like similar pipe. It looks like it's being made here in Thailand with German machinery & technology. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. What's the rpice for the Pimatec pipe?

Mike

[reflectionx]

The pipe we used is from Ginde. I know because I still have some left over clearly marked Ginde Made in China. If you look at the Ginde site I sent you and click on the pipe section you'll see that the pipe is made in China using German machinery and technology. Now that's the pipe we used. I don't know what the supplier is importing these days.

I assume the press clamp you're referring to is what we Yanks call a crimping tool. The prices seems very reasonable.

I assume the pipe price is per meter.

I looked at the site you sent me and it seems like similar pipe. It looks like it's being made here in Thailand with German machinery & technology. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. What's the rpice for the Pimatec pipe?

Mike

Press clamp is a bit different than crimping tool, which is used for crimp type of fittings. On multilayer pipes (e.g. PAP), there are only 2 types of fittings - press and push. For regurlar PEX, there are more: http://www.pexsupply.com/PEX-Fittings-525000

As I said, the main difference between the "pimaflex" and the Ginde pipe is the outer layer - PE-RT for pimaflex, PEX for GInde. Also, there is no difference for hot and cold water as they only have one version - PE-RT. The pimaflex importer claims that the pipe is made in and imported from Germany.

As with the Ginde pipe, there are 2 types of fittings - press and push. The "push" fittings are made in Thailand, whereas the "press" are imported from Germany. The pipe and press fittings are availabe in many plumbing shops, but the press fittings are mainly ordered directly from the importer from Bangkok.

The pimaflex press tool seems quite expensive compared to the Ginde press tool - almost 10 times more (more than 15 000 baht). But the importer offers it for rent - 300 baht/per day, which is great.

I am attaching the price catalog I've received from the importer - one for the DIY press fittings, and one for the pro press fittings.

The pipe is quite reasonably priced at 70 baht/meter for the 1/2". The fittings are quite expensive at 5-6$ each. I've calculated that I will need about 50 for all the fixtures - 3 bathrooms and a kitchen. (still waiting for a quote from the Ginde exporter on their fittings). Overall, it would probably cost me around $500 to do both cold and hot water with this type.

01.01.2012 - Pimaflex Multipipe Price list.pdf

01.02.2013 - MULTITUBO PL Pimatec.pdf