U S: Six Dead In Santa Monica Shooting Rampage

[sustento]

California Shooter -- Arabic family name Zawahiri

http://www.latimes.c...0,4640970.story

Firefighters later found the bodies of two men inside the house. Police

sources, who requested anonymity because of the ongoing investigation,

said the men were Samir Zawahri, 55, the owner of the house, and one of

his adult sons. A second son is suspected of being the shooter, the

sources said.

It also says that law enforcement sources believe that the shooting is tied to a family dispute so I'm not quite sure what surnames have to do with it?

[snarky66]

My solution would be to allow concealed carry in every state and the District of Columbia. These nutjobs pray on the the weak. They search for gun free zones to commit their heinious acts. The idea of being encountered by resistance scares the pants off of them.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I777 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[JDGRUEN]

I'd like to ask the pro-gun lobby a serious question. Assuming that the number of guns in the USA remains as as it is and the 2nd Amendment remains unamended what would YOU do to decrease the rate at which these random shootings occur? What realistic and practical steps would you take to attempt to stop them happening?

Remove legal barriers contained in many state laws that prevent the long term commitment and confinement of mentally disturbed people. Considering that the recent shooters of the last ten years have all had track records of mental instability documented PRIOR to the shooting - seems like a good place to start. And - work on a real screening program to cut short jihadies before they get to their mission target - whether as a part of an international plan or whether lone wolf jihadies ... Remove political correctness from both these efforts.

Are you not able to confine people with mental health problems who are dangerous to themselves and others in the US?

You would be amazed at the legal hurdles. It varies by state. But very often even family members armed with psychiatric diagnoses and document acts of violence cannot get another family member committed beyond 72 hours. Also - the legal liability of lawsuits from those who have been attempted to be committed keep many professionals - school teachers - school officials - psychologist from getting involved. The subject is too complex to discuss in a nutshell but by in large one has to be a raving maniac like in England cutting off a person's head with a meat cleaver - recorded live with blood on their hands screaming about space aliens talking in their ears before much of anything will be done... Just go read up about the headline mass shooters of the last ten years - read about their backgrounds - Nuttier than fruitcakes all - warnings given - but nothing done

[JDGRUEN]

California Shooter -- Arabic family name Zawahiri

http://www.latimes.c...0,4640970.story

Firefighters later found the bodies of two men inside the house. Police

sources, who requested anonymity because of the ongoing investigation,

said the men were Samir Zawahri, 55, the owner of the house, and one of

his adult sons. A second son is suspected of being the shooter, the

sources said.

It also says that law enforcement sources believe that the shooting is tied to a family dispute so I'm not quite sure what surnames have to do with it?

Perhaps after a thorough investigation we will find that the family dispute had to do with committing acts of violence in the name of Jihad. Of course family names and brother relationships and RELIGION had nothing to do with the Boston Bombing did it ? / sarcasm off

Edited June 8, 2013 by JDGRUEN

[NeverSure]

California. Assault type weapons with high capacity (more than ten rounds) magazines are already illegal there. Of course laws don't stop criminals.

The police believe more than one person was involved. A rifle and a shotgun were heard. One is dead, another in custody.

Two guys plan this? I'll wait until I hear what their backgrounds are. At the least if they have a criminal history they aren't allowed to own guns. At the worst they could wind up with strange last names and associates.

I want the rest of the story.

California Shooter -- Arabic family name Zawahiri

http://www.latimes.c...0,4640970.story

Firefighters later found the bodies of two men inside the house. Police

sources, who requested anonymity because of the ongoing investigation,

said the men were Samir Zawahri, 55, the owner of the house, and one of

his adult sons. A second son is suspected of being the shooter, the

sources said.

California Shooter -- Arabic family name Zawahiri

http://www.latimes.c...0,4640970.story

Firefighters later found the bodies of two men inside the house. Police

sources, who requested anonymity because of the ongoing investigation,

said the men were Samir Zawahri, 55, the owner of the house, and one of

his adult sons. A second son is suspected of being the shooter, the

sources said.

It also says that law enforcement sources believe that the shooting is tied to a family dispute so I'm not quite sure what surnames have to do with it?

Well, on the first page of this thread in the 7th post, I said the above - first quote. Something didn't ring right with me.

Now we still don't know and I'm still waiting, but it gets curiouser and curiouser, innit?

We'll have to wait and see.

[NeverSure]

California Shooter -- Arabic family name Zawahiri

http://www.latimes.c...0,4640970.story

Firefighters later found the bodies of two men inside the house. Police

sources, who requested anonymity because of the ongoing investigation,

said the men were Samir Zawahri, 55, the owner of the house, and one of

his adult sons. A second son is suspected of being the shooter, the

sources said.

It also says that law enforcement sources believe that the shooting is tied to a family dispute so I'm not quite sure what surnames have to do with it?

You've never heard of Muslim honor killings? I'm not predicting anything, but they happen.

[sustento]

California Shooter -- Arabic family name Zawahiri

http://www.latimes.c...0,4640970.story

Firefighters later found the bodies of two men inside the house. Police

sources, who requested anonymity because of the ongoing investigation,

said the men were Samir Zawahri, 55, the owner of the house, and one of

his adult sons. A second son is suspected of being the shooter, the

sources said.

It also says that law enforcement sources believe that the shooting is tied to a family dispute so I'm not quite sure what surnames have to do with it?

You've never heard of Muslim honor killings? I'm not predicting anything, but they happen.

Yes I've heard of Muslim 'honour' killings but I don't make assumptions about people based on their name.

[JDGRUEN]

"A law enforcement source with knowledge of the investigation told CNN on Saturday that the gunman had suffered mental health issues. A couple of years ago, he was hospitalized for treatment after allegedly talking about harming someone, according to the official."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/08/us/california-college-gunman/index.html

Note: He WAS hospitalized ... not kept confined - not committed

Edited June 8, 2013 by JDGRUEN

[sustento]

"A law enforcement source with knowledge of the investigation told CNN on Saturday that the gunman had suffered mental health issues. A couple of years ago, he was hospitalized for treatment after allegedly talking about harming someone, according to the official."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/08/us/california-college-gunman/index.html

Note: He WAS hospitalized ... not kept confined - not committed

In the UK you can be 'sectioned' (detained against your will) if it's believed that you might be a danger to yourself or others.

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/expertadvice/problemsdisorders/beingsectionedengland.aspx

[NeverSure]

"A law enforcement source with knowledge of the investigation told CNN on Saturday that the gunman had suffered mental health issues. A couple of years ago, he was hospitalized for treatment after allegedly talking about harming someone, according to the official."

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/08/us/california-college-gunman/index.html

Note: He WAS hospitalized ... not kept confined - not committed

In the UK you can be 'sectioned' (detained against your will) if it's believed that you might be a danger to yourself or others.

http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/expertadvice/problemsdisorders/beingsectionedengland.aspx

I read it all. It's almost identical to my state in the US, right down to the forced 72 hours initially. Any police officer can forcibly take you without a warrant to a ward for that purpose. Within the 72 hours you would be evaluated by at least 2 mental health professionals. You could be released, or committed for much longer. The problem is a lack of space. There is no effort made to increase the limited space available, so too many are put back out on the street or released to relatives. But the process is there.

[KuhnPaen]

America is a gun CULTURE. Even if you banned every gun, and went door to door and took every gun away. There are enough people who know how to manufacture them and they would just make their own. A new black market would start importing them, and you would have Al Capone types dealing Smith and Wessons instead of booze. The Wild West is alive and well, and probably won't die out any time soon. Just expect more stories like this. Probably a lot more.

BTW, Chicago has banned hand guns for decades and is the murder capital of the USA right now...yep--death by hand guns.

Bans don't work.

You have to change the culture, and that probably won't happen.

[JDGRUEN]

California Shooter -- Arabic family name Zawahiri

http://www.latimes.c...0,4640970.story

Firefighters later found the bodies of two men inside the house. Police

sources, who requested anonymity because of the ongoing investigation,

said the men were Samir Zawahri, 55, the owner of the house, and one of

his adult sons. A second son is suspected of being the shooter, the

sources said.

Shooter ... (IMO) Mentally Deranged Jordanian Christian - not Muslim it would seem ... My inference that the shooter was Muslim was incorrect based on this information at the link further below. More information is obviously needed to establish a motive.

Shooting the father and brother in a family argument is one thing .... donning a bullet proof vest - dressing in black, hijacking a car, shooting randomly in the streets, shooting at the college ... Sounds much more complicated than just a family argument.

**************************************************************

EXCERPTS:

The family is Jordanian, members of the "Antiochian Orthodox Christian Church" (unverified)

Both of the sons were born in the 1980's in Los Angeles. The family has connections in Akron, Ohio.

http://thespiritoftr...wahri-name.html

[NeverSure]

You're right. This thread is about yet another massacre in a state where they have strict gun control laws. The criminals are not stupid, they know where to go to commit these crimes unchallenged. New Jersey, Ney York, California and Illinois are those states with the highest crime rate and the stricter gun laws.

As for the way of killing somebody, it is irrelavant to know which tool they used to commit their crimes. What if I ask you which way would you prefere to be a victim, with a knife, a baseball bat or a gun? At the end, you don't want to be a victim or, at least, you would like to be able to defend yourself. A crime is as violent using a knife or a gun, that is the point. UK are number one in violent crime rate while US are 26th. Switzerland is the safest country in the world when everybody owns a gun. Why Switzerland is the safest country with so many guns? With your arguments, it is clear that everybody would shoot at each other. That's not the case and you know why? Because the criminal knows there are too many armed honnest people around him.

I went to both Houston and New York City. I even took a walk in Harlem. You know what? I feel a way safer in Houston than NYC. UK mmmmm... I wouldnt want to be the next man being butchered in the street while being watch by dozens of unarmed people that can't do anything except looking at me being killed.

Couldn't have said it better myself. A ball peen hammer can be used as a weapon to kill. Any progressives want to outlaw ball peen hammers?

Progressives libs whatever hate guns. They are afraid of guns. I invite all my lib friends not to own guns.

Allow me to connect the dots.

By the time the progressives get done trashing the constitution they will not want to face armed opposition.

So confiscation will be their goal.

Well, here's how I look at it.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies deleted.

[Morden]

Gun laws to be effective need to be FEDERAL. Duh. Thank you Australia for showing the way. Too bad the USA has become retarded in attempting such basic and helpful changes to save the lives of their OWN citizens.

The US is a republic of states. All powers not expressly given to the federal government in the constitution are reserved for the states. That's why laws vary state to state.

As for federal, it is bound by the constitution which demands that citizens be allowed to keep and bear arms. So are the states bound by that constitution.

This topic isn't about Australia.

Haha, gun laws in Australia are governed at state level. They just managed to get their crap together and bought laws into line.

As for refering to the the constitution. What a cop out! It isn't an infallible document. If they had the lobby groups they have today two centuries ago, I'm sure negro's would still be counted as 3/5 of a white person, given the argument used by NRA types that you can't dare strike out an antiquated piece of text written for different times,

The Constitution has already been amended by laws so there's no reason why it shouldn't be done again. The NRA and its followers use several red herrings and the sin of amending or clarifying parts of the Constitution is one of them.

[TexasRanger]

When crazy people get a notion to kill it will happen by whatever means necessary. I seem to remember a few aircraft being used to devastating effect. My professional career was weapons for many years, still wouldn't have one in my house though. Too many negative downsides. I know plenty of people in Thailand that want one and I am glad they don't have easy access to buy them.

[Morden]

The speculation is starting in advance of clear information. Even the news reporters on the scene are confused about the detail.

CNN has said this morning:

1. According to a woman on the bus, the killer was of very white complexion.

2. The other person arrested is said 'to be of interest' and 'Asian in appearance'. No-one other than a few reporters has yet connected this person with the killer.

3. The gun is said to be an AR15.

However, given the present confusion, we don't know whether any of this is correct or what the background of the dead killer and the 'Asian' might be.

All that seems to be established publicly is that there has been yet another gun rampage with significant loss of life involving a long barrelled gun.

On a general note, the more legal guns there are around, the more illegal guns there will be. I can't understand why there is still so much support in the US for open gun laws amongst people who seem to have no compassion for the victims or their families.

The AR15 is one of the most common semi-automatic rifles in America. It's used for competition, sports shooting, target practice, and hunting. But it's only one of many semi-automatic rifles sold. But the media loves to demonize it because it looks like a fully-automatic M16. It isn't. An the media is simply fear-mongering.

Educate yourself: http://www.assaultweapon.info.

Also, gun advocates are generally individuals with conservative values: like the love of family. We have immense compassion for the victims of gun related crimes. We arm ourselves so we (and our families) do not become victims of gun related crimes. And I reiterate...since 1993 gun related homicide in the United States has decreased 49%.

I concur, we always have compassion and proper justice for the victims of gun related crimes unlike other countries where justice for gunmen can be based on money and status. Make no mistake we have problems with gun related homicides but we do not lead the pack worldwide, Thailand for example exceeds us in this category and it seems that weapons are banned but pretty common regardless. We have a proud history of civil rights that allows us certain freedoms like choice of religion, free speech, right to assemble, right to vote and right to keep and bear arms. Many of these simple freedoms are no longer available in many countries of the world especially the second amendment of the right to keep and bear arms. Personally I believe that the less control the government has on it's people the more freedoms you can enjoy. Guns never kill people but people do and they will find whatever weapon they can to accomplish their goal. Making weapons illegal for law abiding citizens will never prevent criminals or whackos from finding guns to kill people. I have a shotgun at home for defense in the house and feel quite secure at night. Just an opinion I could be wrong.

Sorry but this thread is about yet another gun massacre in the US. It's not about gun or other violent crime in other countries.

If I understood a report on CNN correctly, one of the freedoms in the US is that injured victims of a gun massacre have to pay their own medical bills. There seems to be no State or Federal provision to help them and no crime compensation law. Is that correct, because those victims are having to beg for money on the internet?

I think that some people confuse freedom with selfishness. That would explain the determination of some to resist any change to their freedom to carry almost any gun when there is very clear evidence to suggest that it's needed. It would also explain why injured victims have to beg for money on the internet. Every man for himself!

[Morden]

I'd like to ask the pro-gun lobby a serious question. Assuming that the number of guns in the USA remains as as it is and the 2nd Amendment remains unamended what would YOU do to decrease the rate at which these random shootings occur? What realistic and practical steps would you take to attempt to stop them happening?

Remove legal barriers contained in many state laws that prevent the long term commitment and confinement of mentally disturbed people. Considering that the recent shooters of the last ten years have all had track records of mental instability documented PRIOR to the shooting - seems like a good place to start. And - work on a real screening program to cut short jihadies before they get to their mission target - whether as a part of an international plan or whether lone wolf jihadies ... Remove political correctness from both these efforts.

I don't think it would be correct to suggest that they all had mental health records. After the event, they were found to have shown signs of mental issues but I don't think that all had records that would come to the attention of those vetting a permit application. The Sandy Hook killer is obviously a slice short of a loaf but he didn't own the guns he used.

[Scott]

A lot of off-topic posts and replies have been removed. One poster is on suspension and I suspect others will follow shortly.

[Morden]

America is a gun CULTURE. Even if you banned every gun, and went door to door and took every gun away. There are enough people who know how to manufacture them and they would just make their own. A new black market would start importing them, and you would have Al Capone types dealing Smith and Wessons instead of booze. The Wild West is alive and well, and probably won't die out any time soon. Just expect more stories like this. Probably a lot more.

BTW, Chicago has banned hand guns for decades and is the murder capital of the USA right now...yep--death by hand guns.

Bans don't work.

You have to change the culture, and that probably won't happen.

Once again, this thread is not about the US gun culture as a whole but about the latest massacre and the pattern of such events in the US.

I'm not against guns and we have one at home for self-defence (not something I would see the need for in the UK) but, surely, something must be done to reduce the frequency of gun massacres in the US.

[Morden]

When crazy people get a notion to kill it will happen by whatever means necessary. I seem to remember a few aircraft being used to devastating effect. My professional career was weapons for many years, still wouldn't have one in my house though. Too many negative downsides. I know plenty of people in Thailand that want one and I am glad they don't have easy access to buy them.

Actually, buying a gun is easy in Thailand.

[JDGRUEN]

I'd like to ask the pro-gun lobby a serious question. Assuming that the number of guns in the USA remains as as it is and the 2nd Amendment remains unamended what would YOU do to decrease the rate at which these random shootings occur? What realistic and practical steps would you take to attempt to stop them happening?

Remove legal barriers contained in many state laws that prevent the long term commitment and confinement of mentally disturbed people. Considering that the recent shooters of the last ten years have all had track records of mental instability documented PRIOR to the shooting - seems like a good place to start. And - work on a real screening program to cut short jihadies before they get to their mission target - whether as a part of an international plan or whether lone wolf jihadies ... Remove political correctness from both these efforts.

I don't think it would be correct to suggest that they all had mental health records. After the event, they were found to have shown signs of mental issues but I don't think that all had records that would come to the attention of those vetting a permit application. The Sandy Hook killer is obviously a slice short of a loaf but he didn't own the guns he used.

I suggest that you go do some actual unbiased research on the mass shooters of the last ten years and you will find that in fact they did have documented histories of various and sundry mental illnesses ... but it is up to you if you want to read the truth. I won't spoon feed it to you.

[JDGRUEN]

America is a gun CULTURE. Even if you banned every gun, and went door to door and took every gun away. There are enough people who know how to manufacture them and they would just make their own. A new black market would start importing them, and you would have Al Capone types dealing Smith and Wessons instead of booze. The Wild West is alive and well, and probably won't die out any time soon. Just expect more stories like this. Probably a lot more.

BTW, Chicago has banned hand guns for decades and is the murder capital of the USA right now...yep--death by hand guns.

Bans don't work.

You have to change the culture, and that probably won't happen.

Once again, this thread is not about the US gun culture as a whole but about the latest massacre and the pattern of such events in the US.

I'm not against guns and we have one at home for self-defence (not something I would see the need for in the UK) but, surely, something must be done to reduce the frequency of gun massacres in the US.

And why on earth should a totally domestic matter of the USA matter to you? ... to the extent that you find it necessary to lecture Americans about what is right or wrong with their country ?

Edited June 9, 2013 by JDGRUEN

[Ulysses G.]

I'm not against guns and we have one at home for self-defence (not something I would see the need for in the UK) but, surely, something must be done to reduce the frequency of gun massacres in the US.

Agreed, but it must be something that actually has a chance of working and with the many, many millions of guns already in circulation in America, that is a tall order.

[Scott]

More posts and replies deleted.

[Morden]

I'm not against guns and we have one at home for self-defence (not something I would see the need for in the UK) but, surely, something must be done to reduce the frequency of gun massacres in the US.

Agreed, but it must be something that actually has a chance of working and with the many, many millions of guns already in circulation in America, that is a tall order.

I have to agree. Very sad.

[JDGRUEN]

Haha, gun laws in Australia are governed at state level. They just managed to get their crap together and bought laws into line.

As for refering to the the constitution. What a cop out! It isn't an infallible document. If they had the lobby groups they have today two centuries ago, I'm sure negro's would still be counted as 3/5 of a white person, given the argument used by NRA types that you can't dare strike out an antiquated piece of text written for different times,

The Constitution has already been amended by laws so there's no reason why it shouldn't be done again. The NRA and its followers use several red herrings and the sin of amending or clarifying parts of the Constitution is one of them.

To actually amend the U.S. Constitution is a very arduous task and it is meant to be that way ... so that frivolous changes will not be undertaken. We have the Second Amendment in the U.S. Constitution which passes on the God Given right for bearing arms for self-protection. But more basically and primarily to - at last resort - as citizens - to protect ourselves against a tyrannical government... one which many millions of us in the USA see in the present presidential administration. This is evidenced by the FACT that every time obama speaks about gun control - gun sales go through the roof. As a non American - I can easily see how you do not have a clue as to how Americans of many decades of life in our OWN country feel about such natural rights. And for the life of me I cannot figure how you think domestic issues of the United States of America are any of your business...

Let's just repeat that non-Americans are allowed to contribute to this thread.

The Constitution need not be amended, I think. Courts and laws have already done the job. I understand that the Courts decided that the 'militia' clause could be ignored and there's a law banning fully automatic weapons.

God gave no-one the right to bear arms, even assuming that a god exists. The right to bear arms was included in the Constitution by men who wrote it a long time ago when guns and circumstances were very different.

On the question of tyrannical governments. while I can accept that any country now lives with the risk of that happening, government agencies won't come strolling down your garden path shooting at your house. Whatever arms you have, you wouldn't stand a chance.

It is good that you have an opinion - BUT it is just Your Opinion that you expressed ... and you are obviously allowed to do it... As far as Americans are concerned your opinion counts - diddly squat... We live within our God Given - Constitutionally Granted Rights and you can do the best with what you have in YOUR country. Good luck with retaining your 2000 year heritage by giving it away to relatively recent immigrants who are well set on replacing you ...

[manfrommanteo]

Reports are coming out now that the shooter was a Muslim...so is this another terrorist attack? Is that why the media is refusing to report names? If it was yet another Muslim terror attack, it further shows the failure of the Homeland Security Act and associated agencies abilities to do their "job", the failure of the recently reported Obama administrations cell phone scandal, if that is in fact what their job really is.

[JDGRUEN]

Reports are coming out now that the shooter was a Muslim...so is this another terrorist attack? Is that why the media is refusing to report names? If it was yet another Muslim terror attack, it further shows the failure of the Homeland Security Act and associated agencies abilities to do their "job", the failure of the recently reported Obama administrations cell phone scandal, if that is in fact what their job really is.

Do you have a link to these reports? I would be interested in seeing them as I found a link that says he is / was a Christian from Jordan. But I have doubts because of the nature of his actions - far beyond a family dispute as was reported.

[metisdead]

Nonsense trolling post removed.