Define Poverty - in a Thailand context ...

[ABCer]

David, please! Happiness is a state of mind, not a measure of material possessions.

E.g. I have a full closet of suits, belts, shirts, shoes, ties etc. all very good quality (expensive!).

Here in Thailand I do not use them for years. Shorts, T-shirts, sandals and sleeveless tanks is all I use. And I am happier than ever before.

I am not a Buddhist, but I like it as a philosophy. " Give up the attachments in life and be free and happy" sounds good to me.

On the humor note:'My toothache is killing me... tell me what to let go of to be happy again?'

I've seen terribly unhappy people with much more money than I have...

BTW, do you need the above goodies?

Sorry, mate, I'm not a Buddhist... more luck from somebody else...

Edited June 14, 2013 by ABCer

[ABCer]

This thread raises an interesting issue: Do people whom we perceive as living in poverty feel impoverished?

Money not only increases choices, but can also be defined as something that we exchange for goods or services that has more value to us at the time of a transaction than the money itself.

Some people that appear to be very poor in Thailand choose to live that way to save money. In some cases there may be 3 or 4 wage earners in a family. Paying little or no rent and minimizing their other expenses allows them to save for such things as the education of their children whom they hope will be more affluent and be able to care for the parents when they can no longer work. Thailand also has a low unemployment rate, and people are known to work more than one job. So perhaps what appears to be living in poverty could be by choice in some or many instances, and does not necessarily mean that the people are impoverished. In addition, instead of looking at individual GDP as a measure of poverty or wealth, it makes more sense to look at family GDP, and instead of looking at nominal purchasing power, Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) gives a better idea of how to compare purchasing power between counties. Then there is the idea of "we've always done it this way" which may be a significant factor in explaining why people do not appear to strive for affluence. Also, conspicuously absent in this discussion to date is any mention of Buddhism and its influence on reducing desire for material wealth.

Agree, but,... children is a bad investment. Maybe it is biological? But not a good economic policy...

[ABCer]

only once in 30yrs.have i witnesed what i would devine as poverty,a youg kid about 10 yrs.old trying to climb a rubbish bin outside a resturant near us at miday when closed,the kid was so dirty you couldnt tell if it was girl or boy,the wf.went and bought some food near by and gave it to [girl] who was so hungry she didnt even thank her,so this is what i would say is not living but surviving as to not die.that is poverty.

Thanks for sharing this story.

Personally, I haven't witnessed what you did on that day.

Nice that you didn't turn your back on the girl ...

By comparison, the boy in the OP has a (rusty) roof over head, food in his belly, people who care about him and possibly a bright future.

.

Here's another 'story'. Usually I do not give money to beggars. One day I left Tesco and was asked for money by an old skinny dirty man who said he was hungry (as explained by my wife).

I went back into the store and bought for him a pre-packed nice meal (rice, meat, egg and vegies). We gave it to him, got into the car and watched. He took the pack costing 65 Bt and flogged it to some woman for 20 Bt. I saw it.

Guess he needed money for a fix (whatever it might be). Am I a good man? Am I a fool? - Whatever your opinion is, my wife will second it

Of course I am a fool! If I had given him 20 Bt I would have saved trouble and 45Bt

Edited June 14, 2013 by ABCer

[ABCer]

To all those with soft hearts, - do not despair ...

When the World Banks collect enough of our money they promised to eradicate poverty worldwide!

Watching too much news on Internet

[rene123]

This is an interesting topic and one that is hard to define. I think kannot and meatboy came closest to the definition. If you are happy, have enough to eat and somewhere warm to sleep, then can you really be in poverty? I see happy children playing in the dirt and don't ask for anything. I also see unhappy children surrounded by expensive toys. It is only when you want something more and have no means of obtaining it that envy of others creeps into the picture. At that point it affects some more than others. It's all about what goes on between the ears.

[boosta]

Take happiness out of the equation, independent of any useful poverty definition.

Have to add in basic health care and education, which are of course much more fuzzy as to how to define "basic".

[manarak]

Take happiness out of the equation, independent of any useful poverty definition.

Have to add in basic health care and education, which are of course much more fuzzy as to how to define "basic".

I agree - because then a sad person with a lot of money would be poor and should not pay tax...

[manarak]

This thread raises an interesting issue: Do people whom we perceive as living in poverty feel impoverished?

Money not only increases choices, but can also be defined as something that we exchange for goods or services that has more value to us at the time of a transaction than the money itself.

Some people that appear to be very poor in Thailand choose to live that way to save money. In some cases there may be 3 or 4 wage earners in a family. Paying little or no rent and minimizing their other expenses allows them to save for such things as the education of their children whom they hope will be more affluent and be able to care for the parents when they can no longer work. Thailand also has a low unemployment rate, and people are known to work more than one job. So perhaps what appears to be living in poverty could be by choice in some or many instances, and does not necessarily mean that the people are impoverished. In addition, instead of looking at individual GDP as a measure of poverty or wealth, it makes more sense to look at family GDP, and instead of looking at nominal purchasing power, Purchasing Power Parity (PPP) gives a better idea of how to compare purchasing power between counties. Then there is the idea of "we've always done it this way" which may be a significant factor in explaining why people do not appear to strive for affluence. Also, conspicuously absent in this discussion to date is any mention of Buddhism and its influence on reducing desire for material wealth.

Agree, but,... children is a bad investment. Maybe it is biological? But not a good economic policy...

Children are an excellent investment when someone else pays the bills.

[boosta]

Children shouldn't be seen as an investment at all.

And if their relatively small expense isn't paying off in huge quantities of immediate joy on a daily basis I'd suggest you're doing it wrong, and fixing that should be a top priority, mostly for their sake not yours.

[villagefarang]

For years I had to listen to people telling me that I must hurry up and have children in time to use them. Now I am too old so they don’t bother. There is still a large segment of the population that thinks this way, however. Personally I have always considered children a burden, not an investment, and in either case I didn’t want any.

[caughtintheact]

Children shouldn't be seen as an investment at all.

And if their relatively small expense isn't paying off in huge quantities of immediate joy on a daily basis I'd suggest you're doing it wrong, and fixing that should be a top priority, mostly for their sake not yours.

Choldren are an investment if you expect some return from them, otherwise they are a sunk cost.:)

[Gsxrnz]

There is a certain uniqueness to Thailand (and possibly some other SE Asian countries), that make a subjective or even an objective assessment of "poverty" extremely difficult. Comparing it to a perceived poverty line in the west is not logical in my view.

The Thai culture is somewhat unique in the support of the immediate and extended family. This is something that we in the west have great difficulty in understanding or appreciating. There is a levelling that occurs in the economically poor sector of Thai society that means very few get (or are allowed to get) to the stage where they are truly homeless and/or starving. Wealth is redistributed by the family itself to ensure hardship is minimised to a point that the poverty line is not reached. If a Thai does get to the point where they are literally living under a bridge, are unkempt and begging, then this would often appear to be the result of alcohol/drug abuse or psychological issues that the family can not or will not assist with. I define poverty as the inability to maintain the lower level of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

Ironically, even the poorest Thai also seems to achieve much of the second, third and fourth level of needs just because they are Thai and the way that Thai society functions. All this despite any real wealth or income, even by Thai standards.

There's a bloke up my Soi that sells bottles of petrol. Lives in a tin shanty that's maybe 3 metres by 2 metres built on public land at the side of the soi. It has a bed platform, and all his meagre possessions are in there. He's always clean and well dressed, always has a smile and is great for a laugh. He has a granddaughter visit occasionally for a few days, has friends up and down the soi that he always visits and half his customers wave to him from 100 metres away and fill up themselves and leave the baht. He has the odd drink,always has food, pops away for a day or two now and then (dunno where too), and often has a mini party with the local taxi drivers. I'm sure we all know or have seen people like this in all parts of Thailand.

By any western standards he is well below any kind of poverty line in the strictest sense. If you applied a Standard of Living measurement, then also well below the west and any of us would baulk at his living conditions. If you apply an arbitrary "Quality of Life" measurement, I would say he'd be well up there in the top percentile.

http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=oyOtiOjIpFhDOM&tbnid=PQ7uncv8K58y8M:&ved=0CAgQjRwwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fweemanbradley.blogspot.com%2F&ei=E8O6UeOWHYywiQfUqoDgBA&psig=AFQjCNH-5qV7_xoRWZHZr-dEYPWo2nwTZw&ust=1371280531518471

[caughtintheact]

I think you haven't been around much. There are lots of people living out of their cars in the USA these days(!). And a significant part of the population have no health care. Try finding a Thai who can't find affordable housing. Or gets turned away at the hospital due to lack of health care coverage. I think there is less poverty in Thailand than the USA.

Do you mean no heaqlth care or no health insurance? I have not been there in many years, but as I understand things, hospitals will not turn away people for emergencies. Have I missed something?.

[rct99q]

I have always believed the poverty level is that which is above / below the basic human needs. Food, water and shelter (should add clean and safe to that).

Above this would then include sanitation, security, education and healthcare. Below the basic needs would be people who are destitute.

Where I live very few (if any) I would classify as being below the "poverty" line even though they live on less than the minimum 300 baht a day (most half of this). All of my neighbors have relatively clean and safe housing, food and water. Nearly all have access to healthcare, education and sanitation. Most maybe poor (ie - available cash flow) and some maybe rich, but nearly all are happy (or more so than my neighbors in the West). By definition are they impoverished, yes.

[David48]

Following from the post above, there seems to be a theme of ...

POOR - IMPOVERISHED - POVERTY - DESTITUTE

You can be Poor but Happy

but Poverty and Happiness are rarely bedfellows

[smokie36]

I would define poverty as a lack of friends or family.

In a Thai sense financially having no income....or below 300 Baht a day.

Its difficult to see any young Thai being unable to find a job paying that much at least.....so the elderly with no support I guess is all that is left.

You would have to be a well disliked Thai to go hungry though.

[Berkshire]

Without trying to define poverty, I'd say that there is a great fear of that in Thailand. This is mostly due to the lack of a social welfare net. So family (and friends, to a certain extent) are extremely important. Thais rely on their network of family and friends to get through the hard times, because they know the government won't be there for them. So these relationships are of utmost importance to the Thais. More so than the west, where we're taught to fend for ourselves and rely on no one (except the government, of course). Individualism and all that. So a Thai living on 9,000 bt/month is not doing so bad if she's living with her family. The household income will be substantially higher. Of course, if she's a big spender (MO for Thai girls with farangs), then it'll never be enough.

[boosta]

My perception is that the fear is much greater here than back home than here, because the informal social net is much more supportive than what my (US) government provides.

I think in part this accounts for what westerners call "laziness" in Thai culture, historically maybe even genetically northern cultures teach the importance of hard work, if you don't get enough food and firewood indoors before the snow comes you die, and if there are too many grasshoppers the ants can't afford to be generous and share what they worked so hard for.

Edited June 14, 2013 by boosta

[villagefarang]

Without trying to define poverty, I'd say that there is a great fear of that in Thailand. This is mostly due to the lack of a social welfare net. So family (and friends, to a certain extent) are extremely important. Thais rely on their network of family and friends to get through the hard times, because they know the government won't be there for them. So these relationships are of utmost importance to the Thais. More so than the west, where we're taught to fend for ourselves and rely on no one (except the government, of course). Individualism and all that.

This explanation should help some to better understand why Thais choose social harmony over, relentless enforcement of rules or laws. Longterm they just can’t afford to make too many enemies in their communities, so they often turn a blind eye even when they all know someone is doing bad things. One never wants to be singled out as rocking the boat.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

Poor people in the west freeze to death.

No such problem here.

[metisdead]

A totally off topic post has been removed.

[PaullyW]

There is a certain uniqueness to Thailand (and possibly some other SE Asian countries), that make a subjective or even an objective assessment of "poverty" extremely difficult. Comparing it to a perceived poverty line in the west is not logical in my view.

The Thai culture is somewhat unique in the support of the immediate and extended family. This is something that we in the west have great difficulty in understanding or appreciating. There is a levelling that occurs in the economically poor sector of Thai society that means very few get (or are allowed to get) to the stage where they are truly homeless and/or starving. Wealth is redistributed by the family itself to ensure hardship is minimised to a point that the poverty line is not reached. If a Thai does get to the point where they are literally living under a bridge, are unkempt and begging, then this would often appear to be the result of alcohol/drug abuse or psychological issues that the family can not or will not assist with. I define poverty as the inability to maintain the lower level of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs.

Ironically, even the poorest Thai also seems to achieve much of the second, third and fourth level of needs just because they are Thai and the way that Thai society functions. All this despite any real wealth or income, even by Thai standards.

There's a bloke up my Soi that sells bottles of petrol. Lives in a tin shanty that's maybe 3 metres by 2 metres built on public land at the side of the soi. It has a bed platform, and all his meagre possessions are in there. He's always clean and well dressed, always has a smile and is great for a laugh. He has a granddaughter visit occasionally for a few days, has friends up and down the soi that he always visits and half his customers wave to him from 100 metres away and fill up themselves and leave the baht. He has the odd drink,always has food, pops away for a day or two now and then (dunno where too), and often has a mini party with the local taxi drivers. I'm sure we all know or have seen people like this in all parts of Thailand.

By any western standards he is well below any kind of poverty line in the strictest sense. If you applied a Standard of Living measurement, then also well below the west and any of us would baulk at his living conditions. If you apply an arbitrary "Quality of Life" measurement, I would say he'd be well up there in the top percentile.

http://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&docid=oyOtiOjIpFhDOM&tbnid=PQ7uncv8K58y8M:&ved=0CAgQjRwwAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fweemanbradley.blogspot.com%2F&ei=E8O6UeOWHYywiQfUqoDgBA&psig=AFQjCNH-5qV7_xoRWZHZr-dEYPWo2nwTZw&ust=1371280531518471

Good anecdote. I think it's also a point to remember -- for those of us who came from poverty or had other indirect or directed experience with poverty in a Western country -- that some of these qualities are very regular in the West as well. Our societies weren't always modern and relatively rich. Let's not get carried away with our admiration of the Thais on this topic. It's human nature to not want to wallow in misery. People the world over in rich countries and poor smile much more than many of us with no experience in that venue would anticipate.

In my opinion, it's more impressive in rich countries where poor people generally know how far from comfort they actually are.

I have a very, very deep respect for Western sacrifices that brought us to our relative privilege and I take many opportunities to remind people that we scratched and kicked and clawed and bleed our way to where we are.

[kannot]

only once in 30yrs.have i witnesed what i would devine as poverty,a youg kid about 10 yrs.old trying to climb a rubbish bin outside a resturant near us at miday when closed,the kid was so dirty you couldnt tell if it was girl or boy,the wf.went and bought some food near by and gave it to [girl] who was so hungry she didnt even thank her,so this is what i would say is not living but surviving as to not die.that is poverty.

Thanks for sharing this story.

Personally, I haven't witnessed what you did on that day.

Nice that you didn't turn your back on the girl ...

By comparison, the boy in the OP has a (rusty) roof over head, food in his belly, people who care about him and possibly a bright future.

.

Here's another 'story'. Usually I do not give money to beggars. One day I left Tesco and was asked for money by an old skinny dirty man who said he was hungry (as explained by my wife).

I went back into the store and bought for him a pre-packed nice meal (rice, meat, egg and vegies). We gave it to him, got into the car and watched. He took the pack costing 65 Bt and flogged it to some woman for 20 Bt. I saw it.

Guess he needed money for a fix (whatever it might be). Am I a good man? Am I a fool? - Whatever your opinion is, my wife will second it

Of course I am a fool! If I had given him 20 Bt I would have saved trouble and 45Bt

and if you had given him NONE you may have saved him completely.

[kannot]

I think you haven't been around much. There are lots of people living out of their cars in the USA these days(!). And a significant part of the population have no health care. Try finding a Thai who can't find affordable housing. Or gets turned away at the hospital due to lack of health care coverage. I think there is less poverty in Thailand than the USA.

Do you mean no heaqlth care or no health insurance? I have not been there in many years, but as I understand things, hospitals will not turn away people for emergencies. Have I missed something?.

The FACT they are living in a CAR tells me all I need to know regarding "poverty"

[kannot]

Without trying to define poverty, I'd say that there is a great fear of that in Thailand. This is mostly due to the lack of a social welfare net. So family (and friends, to a certain extent) are extremely important. Thais rely on their network of family and friends to get through the hard times, because they know the government won't be there for them. So these relationships are of utmost importance to the Thais. More so than the west, where we're taught to fend for ourselves and rely on no one (except the government, of course). Individualism and all that.

This explanation should help some to better understand why Thais choose social harmony over, relentless enforcement of rules or laws. Longterm they just can’t afford to make too many enemies in their communities, so they often turn a blind eye even when they all know someone is doing bad things. One never wants to be singled out as rocking the boat.

I don't think that's harmony that's FEAR'

[benalibina]

Without trying to define poverty, I'd say that there is a great fear of that in Thailand. This is mostly due to the lack of a social welfare net. So family (and friends, to a certain extent) are extremely important. Thais rely on their network of family and friends to get through the hard times, because they know the government won't be there for them. So these relationships are of utmost importance to the Thais. More so than the west, where we're taught to fend for ourselves and rely on no one (except the government, of course). Individualism and all that.

This explanation should help some to better understand why Thais choose social harmony over, relentless enforcement of rules or laws. Longterm they just can’t afford to make too many enemies in their communities, so they often turn a blind eye even when they all know someone is doing bad things. One never wants to be singled out as rocking the boat.

I don't think that's harmony that's FEAR'

Explain the FEAR part how you see it please ? Interested to know.

[jvs]

My long time Thai friend(worker) does not have a lot of money,he is poor! His house is in bad shape and both he and his wife are working hard to make ends meet.In his off time he has started to raise a small herd of cows and he is very proud of that.

But guess what, his daughter has just started university and the whole family is helping out to make it possible.She also gets a loan from the government and she is the first one in the family to get a real education,he is poor but he feels really rich!

[Kitsune]

Without trying to define poverty, I'd say that there is a great fear of that in Thailand. This is mostly due to the lack of a social welfare net. So family (and friends, to a certain extent) are extremely important. Thais rely on their network of family and friends to get through the hard times, because they know the government won't be there for them. So these relationships are of utmost importance to the Thais. More so than the west, where we're taught to fend for ourselves and rely on no one (except the government, of course). Individualism and all that.

This explanation should help some to better understand why Thais choose social harmony over, relentless enforcement of rules or laws. Longterm they just can’t afford to make too many enemies in their communities, so they often turn a blind eye even when they all know someone is doing bad things. One never wants to be singled out as rocking the boat.

I don't think that's harmony that's FEAR'

Explain the FEAR part how you see it please ? Interested to know.

in fear of violenc from their teachers

[benalibina]

Without trying to define poverty, I'd say that there is a great fear of that in Thailand. This is mostly due to the lack of a social welfare net. So family (and friends, to a certain extent) are extremely important. Thais rely on their network of family and friends to get through the hard times, because they know the government won't be there for them. So these relationships are of utmost importance to the Thais. More so than the west, where we're taught to fend for ourselves and rely on no one (except the government, of course). Individualism and all that.

This explanation should help some to better understand why Thais choose social harmony over, relentless enforcement of rules or laws. Longterm they just can’t afford to make too many enemies in their communities, so they often turn a blind eye even when they all know someone is doing bad things. One never wants to be singled out as rocking the boat.

I don't think that's harmony that's FEAR'

Explain the FEAR part how you see it please ? Interested to know.

in fear of violenc from their teachers

?? Social communities he was referring to, i think.

[Kitsune]

Without trying to define poverty, I'd say that there is a great fear of that in Thailand. This is mostly due to the lack of a social welfare net. So family (and friends, to a certain extent) are extremely important. Thais rely on their network of family and friends to get through the hard times, because they know the government won't be there for them. So these relationships are of utmost importance to the Thais. More so than the west, where we're taught to fend for ourselves and rely on no one (except the government, of course). Individualism and all that.

This explanation should help some to better understand why Thais choose social harmony over, relentless enforcement of rules or laws. Longterm they just can’t afford to make too many enemies in their communities, so they often turn a blind eye even when they all know someone is doing bad things. One never wants to be singled out as rocking the boat.

I don't think that's harmony that's FEAR'

Explain the FEAR part how you see it please ? Interested to know.

in fear of violenc from their teachers

?? Social communities he was referring to, i think.

sorry can't read this