Insulation Clearance Around Downlights

[Greenside]

For the downlights in our current house, where they are fitted in areas where there is ceiling insulation (StayCool type) I made simple metal collars out of thin metal sheet riveted together with an access point for the cables. We cut holes in the insulation bags and inserted the spacer around the fitting to give the suggested clearance and I'm satisfied they do the job.

Of course neither the electricians or the contractor had ever heard of doing this but I wouldn't trust the labelling on products sold here (even if I could read it) so who knows how fire safe the StayCool really is?

Here's the problem: The insulated ceilings in the new house may not allow safe access to the fitting from above (too much space, rather than too little) and I'm wondering how this issue is addressed in commercial products - surely it must be common problem. They'd like to be able to cut a hole in the gypsum pierce the insulation bag and use a spacer that expands before connecting the fitting.

Any ideas?

Edited June 15, 2013 by Greenside

[monty]

For the downlights in our current house, where they are fitted in areas where there is ceiling insulation (StayCool type) I made simple metal collars out of thin metal sheet riveted together with an access point for the cables.  We cut holes in the insulation bags and inserted the spacer around the fitting to give the suggested clearance and I'm satisfied they do the job.

 

Of course neither the electricians or the contractor had ever heard of doing this but I wouldn't trust the labelling on products sold here (even if I could read it) so who knows how fire safe the StayCool really is?

 

Here's the problem:  The insulated ceilings in the new house may not allow safe access to the fitting from above (too much space, rather than too little) and I'm wondering how this issue is addressed in commercial products - surely it must be common problem.  They'd like to be able to cut a hole in the gypsum pierce the insulation bag and use a spacer that expands before connecting the fitting.

 

Any ideas?

DIY!

Cut hole in ceiling on the correct size of the downlight.

Pull down insulation and cut sufficiently big hole.

Buy 4, 5 or 6" blue pvc pipe (depends on size of downlights) and cut lengths of approx 20 cm.

Then cut sideways, so you can actually squeeze to make the pipe smaller. Slide through the hole, let go and the pipe will pop back to original size, and will properly space the insulation from your downlight.

Sent from my GT-I9001 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Greenside]

That seems like a good idea although I wonder if the PVC pipe is flexible enough given that the expanded diameter of the collar needs to be quite a big larger than the hole? Also, how does PVC rate as far as flammability goes?

[Crossy]

That seems like a good idea although I wonder if the PVC pipe is flexible enough given that the expanded diameter of the collar needs to be quite a big larger than the hole? Also, how does PVC rate as far as flammability goes?

PVC pipe may not be flexible enough.

Why not make up the same things as you did before just don't rivet them, squeeze to get through the hole, expand out and (if there's space) slip a pop rivet in from the inside to hold open?

[Greenside]

You really need two hands to do the riviting, but maybe a cable tie might do the trick instead.

[monty]

That seems like a good idea although I wonder if the PVC pipe is flexible enough given that the expanded diameter of the collar needs to be quite a big larger than the hole?  Also, how does PVC rate as far as flammability goes?

 

PVC pipe may not be flexible enough.

 

Why not make up the same things as you did before just don't rivet them, squeeze to get through the hole, expand out and (if there's space) slip a pop rivet in from the inside to hold open?

They have the pvc pipe in different thickness (5, 8.5 and 13.5).

I think I used the middle one, rather thick.

Squeezed them smaller with my foot, put a locking plier on, stick through hole and release the plier.

Could get the pipe to around half it's original diameter.

Sent from my GT-I9001 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Greenside]

Thanks for that - I'll give it a try, I'm sure I have some scraps around.

[wpcoe]

How much space is recommended between fiberglass insulation batting and a recessed incandescent light fixture? I asked once here and was told there was no need to leave any gap, but from this thread I get the impression I was on the right track by wanting to leave space for heat to dissipate and not accumulate.

What about a recessed fluorescent light fixture? Since they seem to generate less heat and have a larger area to diffuse the heat (downward and upward), is it okay to butt insulation right up to the fixture?

[Greenside]

The more I research this, the more confused I become as to the best approach.

Firstly, the original regulations I followed were these:

which are the standards followed in Australia and NZ, and I believe the UK has similar requirements. The fittings I was primarily concerned about were a dozen 50w 12V halogens fitted high in a vaulted ceiling area but I extended the installation to all the recessed fittings in the building fitted in insulated ceilings - a further 20 lights. I treated Energy Saving lamps the same as incandescents on the basis that keeping the electronics cool improves the life of the bulb, or so I'm told.

Reading up on this again I see quite a number of negative comments arising from the fact that removing the insulation as shown above compromises the the thermal insulation to a larger extent than one might imagine. Some of these comments come from companies selling either lights, insulating material or devices to get round the issue so you'd expect them to be biased but I imagine that the problem is real or the products wouldn't have a market. In any case, neither fittings or rated insulation appear available in Thailand and my home solution, while not addressing the reduction in insulation, does at least make overheating and fires less likely.

The Thai way seems to be to not acknowledge that there is a issue - there are no statistics to prove it exists ("What? We don't collect statistics?). This forum has a good complement of members with sound electrical experience, how did you approach it?

Interesting info here

and here

Edited June 17, 2013 by Greenside

[bankruatsteve]

Seems like the insulation type is the main factor. IE: fiberglass shouldn't need any clearance.

[wpcoe]

Ah, so fiberglass insulation batting does *not* need spacing and can butt right up to a recessed light fixture. What about *over* the fixture?

[bankruatsteve]

Ah, so fiberglass insulation batting does *not* need spacing and can butt right up to a recessed light fixture. What about *over* the fixture?

Fiberglass is non-flammable so no clearance required anywhere. If it has a paper backing, that would need the clearance. Otherwise, not to worry.

[Crossy]

If you are using CFL or LED lamps do watch where the insulation goes.

Not because of a fire risk, but because these electronic lamps, whilst generating far less heat than conventional lamps as much more sensitive to elevated operating temperatures.

LEDs particularly can have their life shortened significantly be being run too warm.

[Greenside]

Heat build up is not only a fire risk (so I try to err on the side of caution bordering on paranoia) but yellowed fittings, brittle plastic and discoloured gypsum and paint are other results of hot fittings so I'd steer away from running insulation right up to, and especially over, downlights of any kind.