To "garan" or not to "garan"?

[JetsetBkk]

Gasohol is: แก๊สโซฮอล์ - with a 'garan' at the end.

But, on the EPPO web site here, they missed it out.

Also, on the EPPO web site here, they've added it:

So, are there any rules about this or is it simply sloppy writing on the web site?

.

Edited June 19, 2013 by JetsetBkk

[kriswillems]

I would write it without garan.

The garan is used over here to say the ล is pronounced as L and not as N.

I don't think there are rules and if there would be rules they are for sure not consequently followed.

[DavidHouston]

The attached file is the Royal Institute's official guide for rendering English to Thai orthography. See the discussion regarding the final "l" and the use of the garan.

EnglishRenderedToThai.pdf

[AyG]

The dictionary may give แก๊สโซฮอล์ as the official spelling, but แก๊สโซฮอล is far more common.

A Google search for แก๊สโซฮอล์ gives just under a million entries, but แก๊สโซฮอล gives 8.4 million (excluding entries with the karan).

I would write it without garan.

The garan is used over here to say the ล is pronounced as L and not as N.
I don't think there are rules and if there would be rules they are for sure not consequently followed.

I don't believe the L to N conversion is correct. (I've never heard of a karan doing anything other than silence sounds - not converting them.) The official pronunciation of แก๊สโซฮอล์ is แก๊ด-โซ-ฮอ or, using RTGS kaetsoho.

[Roel]

Just another example: Thai2English writes alcohol แอลกอฮอล์ also with garan. If it had been a native word the L would transform into an N at the end of a syllable following the rules. This rule does not apply to this loan word as here the L should be pronounced as an L. Hence one could argue that the garan is added - probably not based on any rules - merely to indicate that the L is NOT an N.

[DavidHouston]

The Royal Institute Dictionary has

แอลกอฮอล์ also.

[AyG]

The Royal Institute Dictionary has

แอลกอฮอล์ also.

Yet Google has 2.2 million entries for แอลกอฮอล (sans karan). The RID attempts to be prescriptive, and in doing so ignores popular usage. It appears to start from a viewpoint that Thai words can't end with an /l/ sound, so no borrowed word can do so in Thai. It ignores the fact that there are plenty of educated Thai people who are perfectly capable of pronouncing this sound at the end of a word, and indeed do so where appropriate for imported words. Others will substitute /n/ for /l/ quite happily - no need completely to kill the consonant.

The RID, however, appears a bit more flexible about imported words ending in "s". Consider, "gas" (แก๊ส), for which the RID gives acceptable pronunciations as alternatively แก๊ส or แก๊ด.

[kriswillems]

Hi David,

I didn't find the chapter describing the final L in the document you posted.

I only see a chapter about LL.

Did you find it?

If there would not be a chapter about the final L, would แก๊สโซฮอล not be the correct spelling?

Why is the RID making another choice?

I can find general = เจเนอรัล and school = สกูล in this document, without garan.

So, it looks very much like the RI is not following the rules they defined (in the word แก๊สโซฮอล์)?

Edited June 20, 2013 by kriswillems

[DavidHouston]

Thank you, Kris, for that response. I just recently looked into the difference between the notions of "คำยืน" and "คำทับศัพท์". The former means words which have been "borrowed" from another language and incorporated fully into Thai with a officially adopted spelling and pronunciation. These words tend to be pronounced as a Thai would say the words, rather than mimic how a native speaker of the foreign language would pronounce them.

On the other hand, คำทัพศัพท์ is a foreign words which is pronounced with Thai orthography in newspaper articles, written documents which need to include a foreign word, and for inclusion of foreign names.

I believe I was incorrect in assuming that แก๊สโซฮอล์ was a คำทับศัพท์, rather than a คำยืม. In fact the RID does include "แอลกอฮอล์":

แอลกอฮอล์ น. สารอินทรีย์ชนิดหนึ่ง ลักษณะเป็นของเหลวใส กลิ่นฉุน ระเหย ง่าย มีขีดเดือด ๗๘.๕?ซ. ชื่อเต็มคือ เอทิลแอลกอฮอล์

The inclusion of the term in the RID is a good sign that the word has been officially adopted into Thai. Although I cannot find the "gasohol" equivalent in either the basic on-line RID or the three "Dictionary of New Words," I believe that the RI would rely on the spelling of its "alcohol" parent and leave the garan in place. And, furthermore, the Royal Institute probably intends that the word be pronounced with a final vowel "อ", rather than with a final sounded consonant "น".

My recollection is that at the pump, when asking for "แก๊สโซฮอล์95", the pump personnel do pronounce the final "น" sound, but this could be my imagination. What do you hear?

Sorry for leading you down the garden path. Thanks.

Edited June 20, 2013 by DavidHouston

[JetsetBkk]

Thanks for all the interesting reading!

the Royal Institute probably intends that the word be pronounced with a final vowel "อ", rather than with a final sounded consonant "น".

Maybe Google has it correct: it sounds like you describe above - no 'L' or 'N' at the end.

http://bit.ly/17ptAFH - click on the speaker symbol in the left pane.

[kriswillems]

Thank you, Kris, for that response. I just recently looked into the difference between the notions of "คำยืน" and "คำทับศัพท์". The former means words which have been "borrowed" from another language and incorporated fully into Thai with a officially adopted spelling and pronunciation. These words tend to be pronounced as a Thai would say the words, rather than mimic how a native speaker of the foreign language would pronounce them.

On the other hand, คำทัพศัพท์ is a foreign words which is pronounced with Thai orthography in newspaper articles, written documents which need to include a foreign word, and for inclusion of foreign names.

I believe I was incorrect in assuming that แก๊สโซฮอล์ was a คำทับศัพท์, rather than a คำยืม. In fact the RID does include "แอลกอฮอล์":

แอลกอฮอล์ น. สารอินทรีย์ชนิดหนึ่ง ลักษณะเป็นของเหลวใส กลิ่นฉุน ระเหย ง่าย มีขีดเดือด ๗๘.๕?ซ. ชื่อเต็มคือ เอทิลแอลกอฮอล์

The inclusion of the term in the RID is a good sign that the word has been officially adopted into Thai. Although I cannot find the "gasohol" equivalent in either the basic on-line RID or the three "Dictionary of New Words," I believe that the RI would rely on the spelling of its "alcohol" parent and leave the garan in place. And, furthermore, the Royal Institute probably intends that the word be pronounced with a final vowel "อ", rather than with a final sounded consonant "น".

My recollection is that at the pump, when asking for "แก๊สโซฮอล์95", the pump personnel do pronounce the final "น" sound, but this could be my imagination. What do you hear?

Sorry for leading you down the garden path. Thanks.

Thanks for pointing out the difference between those 2 groups of words. Now it starts to make sense.

I also hear the final N sound when going to the pump.

[JetsetBkk]

Thanks for pointing out the difference between those 2 groups of words. Now it starts to make sense.

I also hear the final N sound when going to the pump.

Maybe that is how the pump attendant says it, but how is it supposed to be pronounced?