Long tailed boats-prop shaft maintenace

[jack2964]

Unsure if this is the correct sub-forum to post this, mod please action as required. Thanks.

If anyone here is familiar with using a typical Thai long-tailed powered boat I hope you could offer me some advice as to how to look after one.

I recently got myself a brand new complete set (Honda GX200 with prop shaft and 6" prop) and have hardly used it for 10 hours on a freshwater lake and the prop shaft is making a helluva racket along with noticeable vibration felt at the tiller. Physically separating the long shaft from the engine (no load) confirms noise is from shaft. There are 2 grease fittings on the long shaft assembly-one on the assembly that is bolted onto the engine output and the other on the long shaft itself. The longshaft is mated to the engine output by two large wingnuts. I have been told by the dealer to pack both these grease fittings with grease which I have done. But I can't figure out how the grease is going to work its way onto the bushings to keep friction down. I packed both fittings to full and after a few outings I noted the amount of grease hasn't reduced which means the bushings aren't being lubed. I think I might have damaged the bushings already as the noise gets progressively worse and I have stopped using it. So guys what have I done wrong here? My Thai skills are as good as zero so it's a bit hard to ask the locals. Thanks to all in advance.

[justben]

Did you use a grease gun? Where are you located?

[jack2964]

Thanks Justben for a very prompt reply.

Nope I didn't use a grease gun. Now that you mentioned it, it makes sense.

Do you think the shaft can still be used if I pump in grease. Otherwise it's off to the dealer

tomorrow to get another shaft. Learn the hard way I guess.

I am in lower NE Isaan, closest town is Soeng Sang.

[justben]

Effective greasing requires substantial pressure. A grease gun is the only way. I am assuming this is a standard zerk fitting with a ball bearing inside that needs to be pushed in by the pressure of the grease. A good grease gun in a dusty old store costs 250 baht. About 500 baht online.

To grease the shafts on my outboards I need to remove the propeller completely. But if yours has fittings for this purpose, it may not be required. Search for an online manual.

[justben]

Try properly greasing first before going anywhere. Any damage that you think you may have caused is probably minimal.

Edit:

If after you tried fixing the problem and you are still having trouble, I can ask some people I know who do have a longtails.

Edited June 23, 2013 by justben

[jack2964]

Each fitting is cup-shaped with a screw threaded cover over it. There isn't any spring loaded bearing or any other mechanism to restrict foreign matter intrusion. Both fittings are way above the water level when in use and positioned at 12 o'clock. I do not know if an ordinary grease gun will have sufficient force to ensure the grease travels all the way along the shaft which is a good 6 to 7 feet length. I doubt there is any manual for these locally manufactured parts. Even if there is it would in all likelihood be in Thai. For sure I would be shopping for a grease gun tomorrow. Btw, that's a decent Kahsoob you have there. Where did you catch that?

[justben]

The fish is from Mae Ngat, Chiang Mai.

Anyway, a grease gun operates normally at several thosand pound per square inch. You will know that grease has filled all voids once you keep pumping the gun and grease starts oozing from the side of the fitting instead of going into wherever you are applying it.

Even though I do not have a longtail, I would bet that proper greasing of the propeller shaft requires the removal of the propeller. I am saying this because by your description, the fittings are very far from the propeller. There is no way a grease fitting would be located several feet from the spot that requires lubrication. It is a very long way to travel indeed, as you said.

Edit: I'm still at a loss as to what type of fitting this is. I dont know its size for one. Is a toothpick small or big to fit in the grease hole? If you can fit a hard wire the diameter of a toothpick or less into the fitting, then do so and try to press down. Does it spring? If it contains a zerk mechanism it may not be visible at all.

Edited June 23, 2013 by justben

[pramaprow]

Had a long tail for years, never used (nor needed a grease gun)...long tail shafts are really basic rigs, even with limited Thai if you can corral some local (who uses one (long tail) to look at and listen to your problem, he should be able to solve it...returning to the dealer is a waste of time...

[David48]

At the Farm we have maybe close to what you talk about.

It's simply a access point to the shaft to which you manually place grease into.

No nipples, nothing fancy.

Should be packed once a week according to the Farm Father.

Probably lucky if it's done once every 6 months because it's up to the Farm Mother to do ... and, in typical Thai Fashion ... she waits till there is a problem ...

.

[Gsxrnz]

Here's an interesting video about the construction of what you have, and the author appears to have a passion for these things. I know sweet FA about longtails but have owned many regular outboards and boats.

I would suggest that maybe your internal shaft has become warped, and/or lack of internal lubrication has resulted in wearing of the plastic "bearings/spacers" inside the shaft, allowing the internal shaft to warp under load.

Alternatively, the outer shaft has become warped/bent and the rotation of the inner shaft is causing a centrifugal force to vibrate the whole prop shaft rig.

Cheers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajH_bLa6fBc

You may also want to check out the following forum for advice.

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/diy-marinizing/thai-longtail-mudmotor-6hp-lifan-honda-26281.html

EDIT: After watching the video again, I suspect what you are seeing as grease entry holes on the outer shaft are actually the screws that secure the inner spacers, as described in the video. I would assume that the length of the actual shaft would not actually need any lubrication as it is a rather basic setup with no real tolerance bearings that would require lube, and easy access for water to enter the whole setup from the prop end. However lube will be needed at the top at the PTO where the engine drive shaft and the prop shaft mechanically join, and also the prop bearing itself, as described in the video. I still suspect a warped internal or warped external shaft, or possibly worn spacers. The vibrations you describe would normally be associated with something being out of balance.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Gsxrnz

[jack2964]

Thanks to you all with your input. I didn't get a new shaft but I got myself a grease gun and with the help of the local handyman, I got him to discard the original grease cup/pot on the shaft and he fitted a zerk nipple for me. So I've got some grease pumped into the shaft with the inner prop rod in place as I couldn't remove the inner rod completely out of the outer shaft. I think the grease has filled its way fore and aft of this zerk fitting but it wouldn't go pass these 2 bushings to the rest of the bushes with the inner drive rod in position. I've given it a test 'run' at home without putting a load as it would in the water and it is a great deal quieter. Winds up so maybe tomorrow morning I'll go down to the lake and I'll know for sure.

Some pics which might make things a bit clearer. From L to R

1 is the entire shaft assy and 'A' is where the new zerk fitting sits.

2 is the zerk fitting close up

3 is the prop end and a couple of screws that lock the wooden bush in place.

4 is the motor end showing the original cup/pot fitting and filled full of grease which never gets depleted. Still wondering how this works.

Thanks again to all.

Any other tips and advice greatly appreciated!

[David48]

One thing I don't see on your prop is a guard/rudder like in the photo below.

Absolutely vital to protect the prop in shallow water where the fin can hit the bottom of the lake/canal, but not damage the prop.

Plus also great to use as an oar when swinging the back of the boat around.

Just a suggestion ...

OH ... the Farm mother firing up the engine and off we go!

.

[jack2964]

I do have that skeg Dave, so happened the photo was taken with it hanging right below and out of view. Pic 1 shows it too.

Nice boat too, hope to have one instead of my present inflatable. Any idea what mom paid for it and where can I buy one?

But then the inflatable can be launched solo and hauled back onto the pickup when done.

One thing I don't see on your prop is a guard/rudder like in the photo below.

LR DSCF7247.JPG

Absolutely vital to protect the prop in shallow water where the fin can hit the bottom of the lake/canal, but not damage the prop.

Plus also great to use as an oar when swinging the back of the boat around.

Just a suggestion ...

OH ... the Farm mother firing up the engine and off we go!

.

[justben]

You work fast man! I like your new zerk fitting. Let us know how it goes.

[David48]

Mate, I can ask, but we are down Bangkok way, and I assume that you would want to buy local?

Assuming that you have the standard Honda 4 stroke motor, I doubt that it would power the wooden boat effectively as she's a heavy girl.

The Farm here has all type of smaller boats ... most of the light weight ones are Galv steel, but I think the Farm Father has an aluminium one ... not sure

All the neighbours who traverse the canal with your motor have the smaller boat as below.

Aunt ... easily carriers her frame

Neighbour fishing

Note the Plywood sheeting placed as a seconf floor.

He was real careful about getting it positioned right

... all that said, when I see them next, I'll ask them about the cost of the wooden boat and where they bought it.

.

[jack2964]

Thanks Dave, I asked because I feel so crammed in my little inflatable and although it is stable enough to stand up, one has to constantly keep balance for fear of falling over.

Recently I was out fishing with a Thai mate and guide and was on one of those all metal (no idea what kind of metal) possibly 16 footer and it glided smoothly over the water with a Honda GX200 which I have too. I estimate speed to be around 12-15kmh.

Auntie's boat (top pic) would be perfect and said motor should push it effortlessly. Being able to stand up to cast is what I want.

Over at Thai Wasadu Buriram, I looked at some plastic boats but aren't too keen so I am making enquiries in my local community to source a 2nd hand boat.

Buying a boat outside my area is impractical unless delivery transport is part of the deal.

Yeah, when you next meet up with the folks I'd like to know what kind of prices I'd expect to pay.

Nice video clip, I'd never seen a boat used this way. These folks do have many bright ideas.

BTW, I took the motor out to the lake this morning and am happy to report no more noise from the prop shaft. Hope it stays this way.

[David48]

Jack ... since you are a Fisherman ... and my gf's Parents have a Fish Farm ... I'd thought maybe you'd like to see this...

They run a standard Fish Farm of Tilapia (Pla Nin) and Prawns/Shrimp, but they also rent a lake and this was the result of a couple of gill nets stretched across the lake.

OH ... this will probably make you pull your hair out ... but I'm not a Fisherman ... probably I was 12 when I last wet a line ...

.

[jack2964]

Thanks for sharing but these aren't pla nin. Looks like Bighead carp and they are great fun on light tackle.

[impulse]

Okay, I'm interested.

Where could one go about buying a Honda GX200 with longtail around BKK, and how much would a feller' need to bring with him?

[impulse]

Thanks for sharing but these aren't pla nin. Looks like Bighead carp and they are great fun on light tackle.

What would you catch them on?

The guys back in China just snagged them because they claim there is no way to catch them on a hook.

I've heard they're filter feeders, so perhaps a ball of lam?

[ThaidDown]

@jack2964

I have those 'cup' type grease thingies ( technical term, sorry) on a Thai style mower/brush clearer.

The way to use them is to fill the fixed part and the screw on part completely with grease. Offer up the removable top and screw it on . The screwing motion compresses the grease and forces it into the bearing. Not the same pressure as a grease gun but works for me, you can see the grease oozing out after the bearing.

Nice solution with the nipple though.

[jack2964]

Okay, I'm interested.

Where could one go about buying a Honda GX200 with longtail around BKK, and how much would a feller' need to bring with him?

I got mine from the closest town from my village. I think I paid around 12000baht for the complete set. If i remember rightly, the motor itself is around 10k baht.

Sorry don't have any idea where to buy in BKK but if you googled long tailed boats you'd easily find one in BKK. I have a link but not sure if mods would allow it but google would get you there. Good luck.

[jack2964]

Thanks for sharing but these aren't pla nin. Looks like Bighead carp and they are great fun on light tackle.

What would you catch them on?

The guys back in China just snagged them because they claim there is no way to catch them on a hook.

I've heard they're filter feeders, so perhaps a ball of lam?

To be honest I've not caught bighead carp by 'normal' angling methods but I have foul hooked some many years ago. But being a typical carp I presume they'd be caught with lam.

Now, I only use lures and target mainly Kahsoob.

I am sure many fishos here have knowledge and methods to catch it. I too would like to hear from them.

[jack2964]

@jack2964

I have those 'cup' type grease thingies ( technical term, sorry) on a Thai style mower/brush clearer.

The way to use them is to fill the fixed part and the screw on part completely with grease. Offer up the removable top and screw it on . The screwing motion compresses the grease and forces it into the bearing. Not the same pressure as a grease gun but works for me, you can see the grease oozing out after the bearing.

Nice solution with the nipple though.

OK thanks for this great tip. I've only filled the cup without doing same for cover, that's where I went wrong.

Don't know how far the bushings/bearings are on your mower from the cup thingy but on my prop shaft it is a over a foot each side from cup to the bushings (1 each fore and aft of cup).

Anyway, I'd fill the cover on the remaining cup (on the motor end) which I didn't convert to a zerk fitting and see if the amount of grease gets depleted after some use.

[jack2964]

Okay, I'm interested.

Where could one go about buying a Honda GX200 with longtail around BKK, and how much would a feller' need to bring with him?

I got mine from the closest town from my village. I think I paid around 12000baht for the complete set. If i remember rightly, the motor itself is around 10k baht.

Sorry don't have any idea where to buy in BKK but if you googled long tailed boats you'd easily find one in BKK. I have a link but not sure if mods would allow it but google would get you there. Good luck.

Couldn't find the edit button...but just to say, the motor is 8800baht and the other bits like engine mount, yoke, tiller handle, prop shaft and prop add up to a total of just over 10k baht. You'll get change for 11k.

[justben]

Video on Bighead fishing. The baits shown can be purchased in Thailand. They are very effective and fragrant. There is a lot of technique to it, though and only a small amount of bighead in the waters compared to China...but there are some huge ones out there.

Edit: if you want to fish with all the toys they're fishing with.. prepare your wallet I have a bunch of second hand stuff for whoever's interested in any case.

Edited June 28, 2013 by justben

[ThaidDown]

@jack2964

I have those 'cup' type grease thingies ( technical term, sorry) on a Thai style mower/brush clearer.

The way to use them is to fill the fixed part and the screw on part completely with grease. Offer up the removable top and screw it on . The screwing motion compresses the grease and forces it into the bearing. Not the same pressure as a grease gun but works for me, you can see the grease oozing out after the bearing.

Nice solution with the nipple though.

OK thanks for this great tip. I've only filled the cup without doing same for cover, that's where I went wrong.

Don't know how far the bushings/bearings are on your mower from the cup thingy but on my prop shaft it is a over a foot each side from cup to the bushings (1 each fore and aft of cup).

Anyway, I'd fill the cover on the remaining cup (on the motor end) which I didn't convert to a zerk fitting and see if the amount of grease gets depleted after some use.

On my mower the bearings are close,so not quite the same. Since the fixed and moveable parts of the grease pot are full the act of screwing down the cap forces the grease to go somewhere, hopefully along the shaft and into the bearing. If you then unscrew the cover you will see that half the grease has gone.

Of course you can always repeat and push more grease in. As an additional note, when I bought the mower the shop told me to put grease in, when I got home I could not work out how this was going to be effective (just filling the fixed cup), had to fire up both brain cells and it still took a while to come up with the 'fill both halves' scenario.

[jack2964]

Thanks Ben, those guys sure know what they are doing, they caught over 30 fish! And all without a reel.

And thanks again ThaidDown for sharing what now seems so obvious. The fine threads on the cup should have been a cue! Now I am going to repeat the fill process to make sure enough grease is forced in.

[BritLad]

@jack2964

I have those 'cup' type grease thingies ( technical term, sorry) on a Thai style mower/brush clearer.

The way to use them is to fill the fixed part and the screw on part completely with grease. Offer up the removable top and screw it on . The screwing motion compresses the grease and forces it into the bearing. Not the same pressure as a grease gun but works for me, you can see the grease oozing out after the bearing.

Nice solution with the nipple though.

Taking that a stage further - with that kind of fitting, you probably need to screw it closed then refill and do it again several times to push the grease initially where you want it to be - then regular maintenance is to screw it in a couple of turns every so often - such as every hour of running - and when the screw bottoms out, refill the fitting and start again.

Hope that helps.