Education Min Phongthep admits Thai education system unsatisfactory

[Fullstop]

There is a school down Hua Hin area that only uses English as first language at school and Thai for approximately half an hour a day.

A friend of mine sent his daughter there and she has done very well. She now has three language skills, written and spoken, English, German and Thai.

She now has a very good job with an international hotel company.

Khun Phongthep. Check this school out. Copy it. You're Thai. You're good at that. Sorted.

[newermonkey]

Alot of very good comments and some unrealistic ones. Until you look at the system as a whole you cant even begin to suggest any meaningful changes. From the top down, admin and teachers are all educated from the same system that is currently failing the children of thailand, so how do you expect any change from them ??? Add in the " We are Thai mentality" and you will not see any change for maybe 2 or 3 generations, maybe. There is rice in the fields and fish in the pond my friends.Honestly if I had children here I would work 5 jobs back home before I allowed them to be educated in thailand.

You Jane, me - KHON THAI!

[bkkgriz]

My wife's daughter goes to an "upgraded" school in BKK. Her daily "English" lesson consists of copying a paragraph from the board into her notebook. Doesn't have to read it or understand it, just has to copy it. I'm sure there is lots of opportunity for improvement on something like that.

On a similar subject, I wonder how the Tourist Police are doing with their "fluency in English in six months" that was promised, oh, about six months ago.

They may also consider hiring some actual teachers instead of backpackers with easily-purchased TEFL certificates straight off the copy machine, who just want to stay longer than their tourist visa allows so they can party and bed as many young girls (or boys) as possible. There are loads of qualified retired teachers from the states and UK who would probably love to take on some work - or would the incompetent Thai teachers then 'lose face'?

Ah good, another one slagging off teachers who work in Thailand. I know that the ESL industry is riddled with lots of losers and scammers, but I think it is much better today than in the past. I am a teacher here and I work my ass off to help my students learn English. I also know lots of others who do the same. Not all of us are here for the reasons you stated. Having worked in Thai schools for 8 years now, I think a retired teacher would last about one week over here. The daily nonsense of a typical Thai school day would send them over the bend. It's a great idea and I would welcome more qualified teachers. But in reality, those teachers would look at the conditions and the salary and go back home to enjoy retirement.

About 10 years ago I happened to be at an upcountry junior school in connection with my work. I was interested to speak to the "English Teacher" When I met her I said "Its nice to meet someone with whom I can communicate with and perhaps engage in some conversation etc... Her reply was "Aly wha?" which loosely translates to "excuse me"?

I found out that in fact this English teacher could not speak or understand a word of English so what the heck was she teaching the kids? Apparently she was conducting her "English Classes" entirely in Thai !!!

Aly (arai) wha (wah) and not arai nah ...... are you sure she said that?

She probably did say, alai wah. That is the ruder version of alai na. Listen to Thai teens and friends talking together, all they say is alai wa. It would be very rude to say that to a stranger, but then again, it would not surprise me.

[rotary]

My son attend a privat school in Surin 1 class or patum 1 or what they call it, english program. The english book they are using is written by two thais, i guess well paid for their effort. It is just terrible. When i complain to the teachers they just say, yes its all about practise. But when a 7 year old have to learn words he dont understand, i understand why the thais dont speak english. And i pay 25000 bth a term for this kind of rubbish, im at a loss what to do. Move to Bangkok or Chiang Mai to get him into an international school or what.

Bkk is the best bet for sure

[rotary]

Lots of countries have problems with public schools, not just Thailand, look at the USA among many with public school problems.

[Thai at Heart]

If they did stop passing everyone, I wonder what the grades would be?

What percentage of students are worth a "c" or better?

Edited June 25, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[Noistar]

A balance between 'degree' issuance against ability would be a start.

Dream on - as is continually rammed home on TV, it's the piece of paper which counts.

Sod it whether they've actually learnt anything in 18 years of education (is that right? 2 years Kindergarten, 6 years Prathom, 6 years Mathyom and 4 years Uni)

[Thai at Heart]

A balance between 'degree' issuance against ability would be a start.

Dream on - as is continually rammed home on TV, it's the piece of paper which counts.

Sod it whether they've actually learnt anything in 18 years of education (is that right? 2 years Kindergarten, 6 years Prathom, 6 years Mathyom and 4 years Uni)

There is an element of just get it done everywhere in the world but what is the point if everyone is crammed between A and c?

It all becomes meaningless.

[Spalpeen]

If a commercial company identifies a skills shortage within it's structure that needs to be fixed they have two choices. They can either train people from within the organisation, which takes time, or they can hire in the expertise from outside. As many people have said here, the English skills of Thai teachers are often lamentable, and before you can address the skills of students you first have to raise the standards of their teachers, which takes time.

If it was up to me, I'd be looking at hiring in large numbers of English teachers from other Asian countries. Countries like Malaysia, India and the Philippines should be able to supply teachers better attuned to teaching in an Asian country than Westerners.

[Noistar]

A balance between 'degree' issuance against ability would be a start.

Dream on - as is continually rammed home on TV, it's the piece of paper which counts.

Sod it whether they've actually learnt anything in 18 years of education (is that right? 2 years Kindergarten, 6 years Prathom, 6 years Mathyom and 4 years Uni)

There is an element of just get it done everywhere in the world but what is the point if everyone is crammed between A and c?

It all becomes meaningless.

The UK is equally at fault there, with everyone but the bell-boy getting an A*. How do you sort the wheat from the chaff with that one.

[Thai at Heart]

A balance between 'degree' issuance against ability would be a start.

Dream on - as is continually rammed home on TV, it's the piece of paper which counts.

Sod it whether they've actually learnt anything in 18 years of education (is that right? 2 years Kindergarten, 6 years Prathom, 6 years Mathyom and 4 years Uni)

There is an element of just get it done everywhere in the world but what is the point if everyone is crammed between A and c?

It all becomes meaningless.

The UK is equally at fault there, with everyone but the bell-boy getting an A*. How do you sort the wheat from the chaff with that one.

Well, they are heading back to basics.

My step mom loves course work.

[DGIE]

The government is already spending much but the problem is, the students/ children have no interest

to learn.

Have you tried teaching job here? You will also lost interest in this job when

teaching Thai children.

[Noistar]

What should the reason for education be?

Is it a measure of improvement, which reflects the abilities of the education system? Everyone improves x% for instance.

But that doesn't help when students are presented to the job market.

I am x% better than I was when I started, but I'm only 50% as able as other students.

Perhaps the job market should consider the ability of someone to improve, rather than an arbitrary 'grade 'C' for instance.

The British attempt to 'balance' things just ended up with everyone being a winner. There were no better or worse students.

There may be more to this education lark than just a final mark/bit of paper.

[Just1Voice]

"Despite a tremendous amount of money Thailand has put into its education system the pockets of school administrators and local politicians, the minister says the result is still unsatisfactory."

[SunnyBkk]

Tablet should help. We paid a lot for that. (sarcasm)

[arthsch]

How to teach English to Thai-students?

Several hundred years before the Englishmen started to use the Roman-letters, they were in use already in big parts of Europe.

So, it's understandable, that Germans, French, Spaniards and all the other European nations don't use the funny kind of the English spelling. The Germans, French aso. are using their own spelling in their native language,

But the Thais never developed a Thai-spelling of the Roman-Alphabet. They are using the English spelling. This spelling, written in Thai letters, is very confusing! It's not understandable for a child, if it get told, that an "A" should be an "e", written in a Thai-letter! Or the "R" - written in Thai letters it's "ahr", but spoken it get's "ah", because the Thais are not able to speak an "R" at the end of a word!

How should a child learn English, if it gets told, that an "A" is an "e" and a "R" is an "ah"?

The solution would be, to develope a Thai-Roman-Alphabet, similar to the spelling of the Thai-letters: "a" - "bohr" aso. Of course, it would be neccessary to invent new names for some letters, as like as the "C".

I did a lot of work in this matter already, but whomever I like to contact in the Royal Institute or the Education Ministery, the are not interested. The Education Ministery never answered my requests.

In 100 years the Thais are not able to make a transcription from Thai-letters to Roman-letters and are not able to teach the students properly. The Thais are obsessed by the Americans and are following every nonsens, what the Americans are telling them.

And the Americans don't respect the Thais and no other language but English.

[Markaew]

So more NES will fix the problem. What a joke. They don't utilize what they have. Not only that, there are more NES leaving Thailand than coming in. Where are they coming from?

[Baerboxer]

My son attend a privat school in Surin 1 class or patum 1 or what they call it, english program. The english book they are using is written by two thais, i guess well paid for their effort. It is just terrible. When i complain to the teachers they just say, yes its all about practise. But when a 7 year old have to learn words he dont understand, i understand why the thais dont speak english. And i pay 25000 bth a term for this kind of rubbish, im at a loss what to do. Move to Bangkok or Chiang Mai to get him into an international school or what.

The total cost of books for my son was about 2000 baht for the year. He is in grade 4. These are mostly books from Singapore which are fine. They basically follow the primary course from the UK, Singapore style. The science book is based on the Thai curriculum but written by foreigners. I've not found any conceptual or grammatical errors in any book so far. There's no need to use material poorly written by overpaid Thais who don't have fluent grasp of the language, and won't accept there are any errors in their work!

My kids are using the Singapore books also.

Still don't grasp why they teach science and maths in two languages and then English separately also. Surely it would be better to teach English as a stand alone subject and let maths and science stay in Thai?

Total duplication of the subject matter is a waste of time massively increases the requirement to find more and more native speakers to cover the science and maths subjects.

Teaching this way should help develop the ability to think and reason in both languages, which increases fluency. Thai is constructed very differently to English and explain and reasoning things is not always as easy as just translating.

[Thai at Heart]

My son attend a privat school in Surin 1 class or patum 1 or what they call it, english program. The english book they are using is written by two thais, i guess well paid for their effort. It is just terrible. When i complain to the teachers they just say, yes its all about practise. But when a 7 year old have to learn words he dont understand, i understand why the thais dont speak english. And i pay 25000 bth a term for this kind of rubbish, im at a loss what to do. Move to Bangkok or Chiang Mai to get him into an international school or what.

The total cost of books for my son was about 2000 baht for the year. He is in grade 4. These are mostly books from Singapore which are fine. They basically follow the primary course from the UK, Singapore style. The science book is based on the Thai curriculum but written by foreigners. I've not found any conceptual or grammatical errors in any book so far. There's no need to use material poorly written by overpaid Thais who don't have fluent grasp of the language, and won't accept there are any errors in their work!

My kids are using the Singapore books also.

Still don't grasp why they teach science and maths in two languages and then English separately also. Surely it would be better to teach English as a stand alone subject and let maths and science stay in Thai?

Total duplication of the subject matter is a waste of time massively increases the requirement to find more and more native speakers to cover the science and maths subjects.

Teaching this way should help develop the ability to think and reason in both languages, which increases fluency. Thai is constructed very differently to English and explain and reasoning things is not always as easy as just translating.

So they are incapable of learning to reason in Thai?

Thai is constructed differently to English? So is French, but I never studied maths in French.

[Baerboxer]

How to teach English to Thai-students?

Several hundred years before the Englishmen started to use the Roman-letters, they were in use already in big parts of Europe.

So, it's understandable, that Germans, French, Spaniards and all the other European nations don't use the funny kind of the English spelling. The Germans, French aso. are using their own spelling in their native language,

But the Thais never developed a Thai-spelling of the Roman-Alphabet. They are using the English spelling. This spelling, written in Thai letters, is very confusing! It's not understandable for a child, if it get told, that an "A" should be an "e", written in a Thai-letter! Or the "R" - written in Thai letters it's "ahr", but spoken it get's "ah", because the Thais are not able to speak an "R" at the end of a word!

How should a child learn English, if it gets told, that an "A" is an "e" and a "R" is an "ah"?

The solution would be, to develope a Thai-Roman-Alphabet, similar to the spelling of the Thai-letters: "a" - "bohr" aso. Of course, it would be neccessary to invent new names for some letters, as like as the "C".

I did a lot of work in this matter already, but whomever I like to contact in the Royal Institute or the Education Ministery, the are not interested. The Education Ministery never answered my requests.

In 100 years the Thais are not able to make a transcription from Thai-letters to Roman-letters and are not able to teach the students properly. The Thais are obsessed by the Americans and are following every nonsens, what the Americans are telling them.

And the Americans don't respect the Thais and no other language but English.

Your inane reference to different European countries spelling things differently defines the clarity of your post. Another outstanding newsflash - Germany, France and Spain speak different languages and pronounce some letters completely differently. Wow! But it has nothing to do with English or the fact that English is the world's language for business, commerce, science and medicine.

Students learning English whose native language uses a non- Roman Alphabet script are at an initial disadvantage to those who are from countries that have do. And the teaching needs to be adapted accordingly.

If your communications to the Thai MOE have been as clear as your posting, then is it any surprise to you that they are not interested?

Have you heard of Esperanto? Guess why its not taken over as the worlds common language.

The issues with the Thai education system are lack of investement in teacher training and development, a focus on rote learning and lack of critical thinking or challenging of ideas, poor listening skills (school and university students) and many poor quality English teachers and programs for starters.

I hope they don't bring in more Filipinos or other low cost non-native English speakers and expect things to change.

[Fullstop]

Lots of countries have problems with public schools, not just Thailand, look at the USA among many with public school problems.

Do they all have identical levels on the charts too? Or are some worse off than others when compared similar socio/economic conditions i.e Thailand compared to Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia etc.

You can't really use the USA as an accurate comparison.

[Baerboxer]

Thai at heart

"So they are incapable of learning to reason in Thai?

Thai is constructed differently to English? So is French, but I never studied maths in French"

If you can't grasp the difference, either a) research learning and the impact of language and culture on it, ask your kids' teachers to explain, c) take your children out of that program if you still think its a waste of time.

They (I assume you refer to people in Thai only programs or learning English as a stand alone subject) will be capable of learning to reason in Thai and will then have to translate thought and logic constructs as well as words if studying text wriiten in English or trying to write Englsih. Those who learn to do this in Thai and English at an early age will have a good foudation and advantage if they want to study at higher level in English.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Baerboxer

[Thai at Heart]

Thai at heart

"So they are incapable of learning to reason in Thai?

Thai is constructed differently to English? So is French, but I never studied maths in French"

If you can't grasp the difference, either a) research learning and the impact of language and culture on it, ask your kids' teachers to explain, c) take your children out of that program if you still think its a waste of time.

They (I assume you refer to people in Thai only programs or learning English as a stand alone subject) will be capable of learning to reason in Thai and will then have to translate thought and logic constructs as well as words if studying text wriiten in English or trying to write Englsih. Those who learn to do this in Thai and English at an early age will have a good foudation and advantage if they want to study at higher level in English.

You can't reason on English until you've learnt English. I don't see an awful lot of point in forcing kids with very rudimentary English to study and be graded on their ability to do junior school mathematics or science in a second language.

Over a quarter my kids week is overtaken with duplicate lessons in two languages. They do not need to sit through having an unqualified English or science master teaching them science in English when only the day before, they sat through it in Thai.

[Baerboxer]

Alot of very good comments and some unrealistic ones. Until you look at the system as a whole you cant even begin to suggest any meaningful changes. From the top down, admin and teachers are all educated from the same system that is currently failing the children of thailand, so how do you expect any change from them ??? Add in the " We are Thai mentality" and you will not see any change for maybe 2 or 3 generations, maybe. There is rice in the fields and fish in the pond my friends.Honestly if I had children here I would work 5 jobs back home before I allowed them to be educated in thailand.

Agree, and I emphasize the aspect of teachers and change.

I'm well aware, from a family member, of schools where current Thai teachers (I mean gov't. schools) have made it very clear they are insulted by any suggestion that they need to change their teaching techniques, and have made it very clear they will refuse to participate in any form of training.

In one school (a large famous gov't primary / high school in Bkk) this all came to a crisis (protest) when the headmistress announced 'training'.

A very large % of the teachers demanded that the headmistress sign a guarantee that the announced training would be cancelled and it would never ever be mentioned again.

She signed.

That's interesting. I know many Thai teachers who fully recognize the need to change and push for more training. At my son's school, teachers seem to go on regular courses and I've observed changes in the classroom and techniques as new learning is implemented. It's seems more down to individual head teachers and the local administration.

The same can be said in the UK - some headteachers are much more proactive than others in driving change and improvements at their school.

[Baerboxer]

Thai at heart

"So they are incapable of learning to reason in Thai?

Thai is constructed differently to English? So is French, but I never studied maths in French"

If you can't grasp the difference, either a) research learning and the impact of language and culture on it, ask your kids' teachers to explain, c) take your children out of that program if you still think its a waste of time.

They (I assume you refer to people in Thai only programs or learning English as a stand alone subject) will be capable of learning to reason in Thai and will then have to translate thought and logic constructs as well as words if studying text wriiten in English or trying to write Englsih. Those who learn to do this in Thai and English at an early age will have a good foudation and advantage if they want to study at higher level in English.

You can't reason on English until you've learnt English. I don't see an awful lot of point in forcing kids with very rudimentary English to study and be graded on their ability to do junior school mathematics or science in a second language.

Over a quarter my kids week is overtaken with duplicate lessons in two languages. They do not need to sit through having an unqualified English or science master teaching them science in English when only the day before, they sat through it in Thai.

Up to you mate - your kids future, you decide.

Scorecard has also posted some nice comments on how and why many other countries have adopted this way of teaching.

You are right about the high variability of teachers - though thats a different issue.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Baerboxer

[Thai at Heart]

Thai at heart

"So they are incapable of learning to reason in Thai?

Thai is constructed differently to English? So is French, but I never studied maths in French"

If you can't grasp the difference, either a) research learning and the impact of language and culture on it, ask your kids' teachers to explain, c) take your children out of that program if you still think its a waste of time.

They (I assume you refer to people in Thai only programs or learning English as a stand alone subject) will be capable of learning to reason in Thai and will then have to translate thought and logic constructs as well as words if studying text wriiten in English or trying to write Englsih. Those who learn to do this in Thai and English at an early age will have a good foudation and advantage if they want to study at higher level in English.

You can't reason on English until you've learnt English. I don't see an awful lot of point in forcing kids with very rudimentary English to study and be graded on their ability to do junior school mathematics or science in a second language.

Over a quarter my kids week is overtaken with duplicate lessons in two languages. They do not need to sit through having an unqualified English or science master teaching them science in English when only the day before, they sat through it in Thai.

Up to you mate - your kids future, you decide.

Scorecard has also posted some nice comments on how and why many other countries have adopted this way of teaching.

You are right about the high variability of teachers - though thats a different issue.

I just was reading about the Singaporean system, and this mixed idea is followed only by a handful of schools.

In the majority of cases, teaching is in English, and mandarin is taught as a stand alone subject.

I am not convinced this mixed system seen in Thailand is the best use of time.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Thai at Heart

[Unkomoncents]

Lots of countries have problems with public schools, not just Thailand, look at the USA among many with public school problems.

The US frets about the fact that its public school students don't perform as well as those from other developed countries, especially in the maths and sciences. As a result, 45 states recently agreed to adopt Common Core curriculum standards, which will help create a bar by which US students can be measured for the first time in American educational history. This is irrelevant except that it demonstrates a world of difference if we are talking about the plasticity of the US approach to education, compared with the Thai approach. We haven't even started talking about results. While the US has problems with unequal access to quality education, it does NOT have general problems with educational quality. The US produces a significant share of the world's Nobel Prize-winning biologists, mathematicians, economists, physicists, etc. At the high performing end of the US spectrum, America offers the best educations in the world for those who can pay. Thailand couldn't even begin to say such things. By and large, wealthy Thais send their kids to be educated in US or UK international schools (in Thailand) or at private schools in the UK and US and Australia. The US has its problems, but those problems couldn't cast a shadow on Thailand's educational problems. For one thing, the US doesn't spend more than other developed countries on education (as a share of per capita GDP) with nothing to show for it:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/30/us-thailand-education-idUSTRE74T0NV20110530

As other posters have said, it doesn't really make much sense to compare America's education problems, which do exist, with the Kingdom's.

[Unkomoncents]

Thai at heart

"So they are incapable of learning to reason in Thai?

Thai is constructed differently to English? So is French, but I never studied maths in French"

If you can't grasp the difference, either a) research learning and the impact of language and culture on it, ask your kids' teachers to explain, c) take your children out of that program if you still think its a waste of time.

They (I assume you refer to people in Thai only programs or learning English as a stand alone subject) will be capable of learning to reason in Thai and will then have to translate thought and logic constructs as well as words if studying text wriiten in English or trying to write Englsih. Those who learn to do this in Thai and English at an early age will have a good foudation and advantage if they want to study at higher level in English.

You can't reason on English until you've learnt English. I don't see an awful lot of point in forcing kids with very rudimentary English to study and be graded on their ability to do junior school mathematics or science in a second language.

Over a quarter my kids week is overtaken with duplicate lessons in two languages. They do not need to sit through having an unqualified English or science master teaching them science in English when only the day before, they sat through it in Thai.

Up to you mate - your kids future, you decide.

Scorecard has also posted some nice comments on how and why many other countries have adopted this way of teaching.

You are right about the high variability of teachers - though thats a different issue.

I just was reading about the Singaporean system, and this mixed idea is followed only by a handful of schools.

In the majority of cases, teaching is in English, and mandarin is taught as a stand alone subject.

I am not convinced this mixed system seen in Thailand is the best use of time.

Your skepticism, for Thais and others in Thailand, is well-placed. I know a number of Chinese expat or Chinese-Thai families in Thailand who were excited a few years back about a new international school in Eastern Bangkok called Thai-Chinese International School. The reason: mixed US and Chinese curriculum at lower cost than other international schools. Years later, I asked some parents about whether the school was any good. All shook their heads in agreement and said: 'It's terrible. Your kids will graduate without fluency in a single language. They won't be able to speak Thai, Mandarin or English fluently.'

[Dap]

Now where do they suppose all that money goes every year and what could

possibly change in that arena?

[Traveling Sailor]

Perhaps next year some of that money will go towards buying TEXTBOOKS for the students' English classes.

Here in the Thung Song area, students at one school were given English work books that originally came with a CD so correct pronunciation could be listened to. They got the workbooks but not the CDs. Amazing Thailand!