Paying Back the Salary Increase

[Nepsydaz]

Hi,

I along with my colleagues had a salary increase last year and this year our Director changed and then announced that all the salary increase signed by the previous director will be invalid and that we will have to return what ever was paid as an increase. I had never heard of this kind of action before. The salary increase being invalid is fine but giving back all that was paid as an increase during the last year is a little too much I think. Is that legal in Thailand? Should we hire a Lawyer to fight back or is that normal?

[robblok]

Your lucky it did not included compounded interest !!! Now pay-up

Seriously I doubt this is legal and a lawyer might have a thing or 2 to say about it.

[Scottythai]

Labor laws in Thailand might be their best area. It's not legal and you never have to pay it back. Signed is signed even if he was fired they can not go back and garnish your wages.

[Kilgore Trout]

Sounds like its time to get the hell out of Dodge!

[Soutpeel]

In this case it would not be legal for them to ask for the increase back,...tell them to get stuffed, but I wouldnt expect an increase next year if your still in a job that is, you dont need a lawyer, if you get any hassle just go and have talk to the Deparment of labour, same office which issued your WP.... .

Edited June 26, 2013 by Soutpeel

[Briggsy]

All the new director has to do is drop the salary to an amount equal to the old salary less the pay rise for the same number of months you have received it and, voila, you have paid back the increase.

Would you consider resigning? I certainly would but it would depend on a number of factors, I understand.

[Soutpeel]

All the new director has to do is drop the salary to an amount equal to the old salary less the pay rise for the same number of months you have received it and, voila, you have paid back the increase.

Would you consider resigning? I certainly would but it would depend on a number of factors, I understand.

Legally speaking the new director couldnt do that either unless there is specific agreement with the employee

[mrtoad]

Certainly not legal under the labour act.

[Bart123]

To clarify, management is not allowed to reduce salary or ANY terms & benefits, including even assigning more difficult or demeaning duties not covered by the job description without the specific agreement of the employee.

However of course if you refuse they can terminate you but they have to give the proper notice and severance payments based on the recent pay level.

The employee can then sue for wrongful dismissal and may well win, but the penalty is usually small, maybe just another month or two's salary.

There is no way they can try to get staff to "pay back" a past increase against their will - legally that is.

They may get you to agree to it in exchange for the privilege of continuing to work there though.

Management is of course always free to give INCREASES in pay or conditions, but if ongoing, these become the new normal and can't be dropped again later on.

Performance bonus incentives and so on should be given randomly rather than based on a published formula or they become part of the base package.

[johna]

Start looking for a new job

[Berkshire]

I would think that if you had a legal contract with the salary stipulated, you shouldn't have to repay the amount in question. I believe the Director can rescind the raise with a new contract, but shouldn't be able to void the previous legal contract. Consult a lawyer--if it's worth it to you (consider the amount you're having to pay back vs. legal fees).

[varun]

Bullshit, under no circumstances will you have to return the money.

It is possible that there might be a rollback on increments, so you'll basically go back to what you were earning last year, prior to the increment.

Either way, best to look for other opportunities.

[Sliderby]

Absolutely no way they can make you pay anything back - not legally and not in reality.

They cannot reverse the raise unless you agree - legally but in practice you risk losing the job. If they fire you illegally for refusing, they still have to pay the severance benefit as required by the law and give at least a month written notice or additional pay instead.

Then you can sue and get a bit more for the wrongful dismissal, but it won't be a lot and does take time. If they didn't follow the rules about notice/severance then your one case covers all that and maybe another 1-2 month penalty.

And for proof with the labor court, no contract is required, the amount on the payslips can't be reduced without the employee agreeing.

[jackinbkk]

Ridiculous place to work, move on!

[aTomsLife]

What kind of business is this? And do you have a WP?

[Soutpeel]

What kind of business is this? And do you have a WP?

does it matter ?

[aTomsLife]

What kind of business is this? And do you have a WP?

does it matter ?

Does it matter that I'm curious about the business? No, but I am anyway.

And certainly it does matter from a legal basis if the OP doesn't have a WP.

Edited June 28, 2013 by aTomsLife

[Soutpeel]

And certainly it does matter from a legal basis if the OP doesn't have a WP.

Not in the eye's of the DOL...WP or not if there is a case there they will take it on...in fact a few years ago a poster described their case they had acted on by the DOL over serverance, believe it was a hotel and they won the case.. and didnt have a WP

The DOL are one of the better goverment departments in Thailand and very pro-employee

[aTomsLife]

And certainly it does matter from a legal basis if the OP doesn't have a WP.

Not in the eye's of the DOL...WP or not if there is a case there they will take it on...in fact a few years ago a poster described their case they had acted on by the DOL over serverance, believe it was a hotel and they won the case.. and didnt have a WP

The DOL are one of the better goverment departments in Thailand and very pro-employee

Interesting. But if the OP doesn't have a WP and makes a complaint (essentially admitting to working illegally), even if he wins there's gotta be a decent chance of getting deported, and possibly fined. Perhaps an instance of cutting off one's nose to spite the face.

Edited June 28, 2013 by aTomsLife

[Nepsydaz]

And certainly it does matter from a legal basis if the OP doesn't have a WP.

Not in the eye's of the DOL...WP or not if there is a case there they will take it on...in fact a few years ago a poster described their case they had acted on by the DOL over serverance, believe it was a hotel and they won the case.. and didnt have a WP

The DOL are one of the better goverment departments in Thailand and very pro-employee

Interesting. But if the OP doesn't have a WP and makes a complaint (essentially admitting to working illegally), even if he wins there's gotta be a decent chance of getting deported, and possibly fined. Perhaps an instance of cutting off one's nose to spite the face.

Well it is a reputed organisation and of course I am working legally here but I am sorry i cant disclose the the name or the kind of business. And there are a bunch of us being affected. I plan to quit but just wanted to know if that is legal or not, and if it is not legal then I could at least notify the authorities regarding this.

And Thanks to all who took time to reply to this post. Now I think I know what to do.

Edited June 28, 2013 by Nepsydaz

[Soutpeel]

And certainly it does matter from a legal basis if the OP doesn't have a WP.

Not in the eye's of the DOL...WP or not if there is a case there they will take it on...in fact a few years ago a poster described their case they had acted on by the DOL over serverance, believe it was a hotel and they won the case.. and didnt have a WP

The DOL are one of the better goverment departments in Thailand and very pro-employee

Interesting. But if the OP doesn't have a WP and makes a complaint (essentially admitting to working illegally), even if he wins there's gotta be a decent chance of getting deported, and possibly fined. Perhaps an instance of cutting off one's nose to spite the face.

In the case on TV I cited..the person concerned was neither fined or deported for not having a WP, refer to post #19 which will give you hint as to why

further now the OP has established he is fully legal, this part of the debate surrounding a WP is moot

Edited June 29, 2013 by Soutpeel

[Soutpeel]

And certainly it does matter from a legal basis if the OP doesn't have a WP.

Not in the eye's of the DOL...WP or not if there is a case there they will take it on...in fact a few years ago a poster described their case they had acted on by the DOL over serverance, believe it was a hotel and they won the case.. and didnt have a WP

The DOL are one of the better goverment departments in Thailand and very pro-employee

Interesting. But if the OP doesn't have a WP and makes a complaint (essentially admitting to working illegally), even if he wins there's gotta be a decent chance of getting deported, and possibly fined. Perhaps an instance of cutting off one's nose to spite the face.

Well it is a reputed organisation and of course I am working legally here but I am sorry i cant disclose the the name or the kind of business. And there are a bunch of us being affected. I plan to quit but just wanted to know if that is legal or not, and if it is not legal then I could at least notify the authorities regarding this.

And Thanks to all who took time to reply to this post. Now I think I know what to do.

The last thing you should be doing is looking at quitting....make them get rid of you, if you have been there long enough they will have to pay severance out, of course if you do have something else lined up...this may change the game....but if you can help it dont quit...you will lose all possible future claims against the company

[geriatrickid]

And certainly it does matter from a legal basis if the OP doesn't have a WP.

Not in the eye's of the DOL...WP or not if there is a case there they will take it on...in fact a few years ago a poster described their case they had acted on by the DOL over serverance, believe it was a hotel and they won the case.. and didnt have a WP

The DOL are one of the better goverment departments in Thailand and very pro-employee

Interesting. But if the OP doesn't have a WP and makes a complaint (essentially admitting to working illegally), even if he wins there's gotta be a decent chance of getting deported, and possibly fined. Perhaps an instance of cutting off one's nose to spite the face.

Well it is a reputed organisation and of course I am working legally here but I am sorry i cant disclose the the name or the kind of business. And there are a bunch of us being affected. I plan to quit but just wanted to know if that is legal or not, and if it is not legal then I could at least notify the authorities regarding this.

And Thanks to all who took time to reply to this post. Now I think I know what to do.

If the company is how you describe, then no the pay cannot be reduced. Any attempt to reduce the salary, if it is a salary and not commission or performance based, it is considered constructive dismissal.

The company officer pushing this, obviously did not seek advice from corporate counsel or HR. If he/she had, this would not occur.