Thai Buddhist swastika. Why the confusion?

[kikoman]

I remember two pictures , one of England's member of the Royal family Prince Harry wearing a full Nazi uniform and another of conservative MP Aiden Burley at a party with people in full Nazi uniforms. I know that this is not as newsworthy to expats here as that of Thai youth wearing T-shirts with a Swastika on it. Also check if public display of Nazi memorabilia in the European Union is banned or illegal, It is not.

There seems to be a dual system of indignation here, its OK for Falang's to display Nazi sentiment but how dare Thai's wear such things in their own country when it offends me, "an outsider".

I can see that the Thai hate brigades are out in full force, The US and Europe are hot beds of active political involvement in Neo-Nazi sentiment, which is clearly not the same in Thailand!

Cheers:

[dogsdinner]

I'm sorry, but that's not always the case. For example, Disney has made a series of kid-oriented movies about a group of puppies with super-powers called the Buddies. Despite protests from Buddhists, they have not changed the name of one of the dogs which is named 'Buddha'. And the Buddha Bar franchise continues with its name as well (again despite protests from devout Buddhists)....

Down Mexico way, Jesus, pronounced heysus is quite common. The dog could easily be called jesus, with no problems.

For some reason you got me thinking of this.

I had mentioned earlier I had a neighbour once called Brian in this topic. Nice bloke buy his mother kept suggesting he was a naughty boy. I had a membership too once with the Judians People Front or was it the Peoples Front of Judiah? Lost a thong once or twice in my travels along the way but I was never mimicked of followed for it. Rather it was a case of being pissed. My wife's name is also Brian. Just for the still pic of the movie. There aren't any woman here today and really all the bloke said was it was a meal fit for Jehovah. A bag of gravel. And whilst in Thailand. Don't forget to haggle!!!

[dogsdinner]

"Most farang get the Thai swastika confused with Nazi Germany. The Thai's faces completely opposite to Hitlers. The other difference is one is over 2500 years old and is applicable to religion while the other surfaced in the 1920's during the rise of the Nazi Party. The seconds prevalence only continues to be seen today due to social extremists like skin heads and the Aryan Brotherhood. (AB) Both represent completely different ideologies."

have to say that almost evertything in the OP is incorrect.

the 2 symbols have the same origins - not completely opposite.

the swastika is very old in both east AND west histories.

It continues to be used throughout the West to make a point - art, punk, movies and MANY political movements use variations on the swastika - but it is in essence the SAME symbol.

Repeated post. Carbon paper is obviously cheap here

[dogsdinner]

I see its you who is confused because your saying its Thai when in fact its the Hindi symbol .And sawasdee originates from that as well .

Yes the first Buddha came from India so yes its origin is Hindi. Buddhism progressed from India. How else is it over 2500 years old with a little education? I was stating why Farang confuse it here in Thailand. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most Thais practice Buddhism and display the symbol because of the relationship and parallels between the two religions? Some farang in Thailand have no idea that the first Buddha was from India and continue to be critical of the symbol and ignorantly start speaking of its use by the Nazi Party. This topic was applicable to discussions heard in Thailand? So thank you but I am far from being confused.

There you go .. WRONG again....

Get your facts right. Buddha was from NEPAL. he was enlightened in Gaya (a place in India) . His birth Place is Lumbini (a place in Nepal) and he used to be a prince there before he went out in search of Nirvana.

Sorry Professor. If you read a previous post byanotheramerican you will find that at the time of his birth the countries of India and Nepal didn't exist. The continent now known as India did but the boundaries since 2500 years ago have been since refined. Read his post. Very interesting. PS. Should I bring the rope or will you provide both the rope and the tree to hang me from? just wondering. I would like to be prepared and have time to say goodbye to my loved ones. LMFAO

[Raybo]

I saw one in Khao Yai years ago at a temple. I think the Hindi influence is where you see the Elephant

Statues also.

I knew that the Swastika type emblem was ancient.

No confusion.

Chulai 6768

[gamini]

Why harp back to the Nazi era which is all part of history.It collapsed nearly 70 years ago. Why not go back a few more years when the colonial powers were committing the same sort of atrocities against the Asian and African countries they were conquering. There still might be a few very old people that would find a T- shirt with a Union Jack on it offensive. Likewise the old Russian flag still installs terrible memories of the crimes they committed against humanity which many would claim were worse than the Nazis. So my point is why make such a fuss about what is on a T shirt especially here in Thailand where there are so many crude and disgusting T shits for sale everywhere

[Dap]

I'm sorry, but that's not always the case. For example, Disney has made a series of kid-oriented movies about a group of puppies with super-powers called the Buddies. Despite protests from Buddhists, they have not changed the name of one of the dogs which is named 'Buddha'. And the Buddha Bar franchise continues with its name as well (again despite protests from devout Buddhists)....

Down Mexico way, Jesus, pronounced heysus is quite common. The dog could easily be called jesus, with no problems.

Yeah, and a lot of Muslims are named Mohammed, but it's a very matter to call your dog Mohammed (or Jesus for that matter). Are you aware of any dogs named Jesus, or are you just making assumptions? [i'm sure there are some out there, perhaps even in Mexico, but I doubt it is a common name... when Mexicans name their kids 'Jesus' they do so out of reverence for their god, so I doubt they'd name their dog Jesus as well].

Heysus (jesus) is a fairly common name and I don't give it much credence either way.

[Kudel]

I remember two pictures , one of England's member of the Royal family Prince Harry wearing a full Nazi uniform and another of conservative MP Aiden Burley at a party with people in full Nazi uniforms. I know that this is not as newsworthy to expats here as that of Thai youth wearing T-shirts with a Swastika on it. Also check if public display of Nazi memorabilia in the European Union is banned or illegal, It is not.

There seems to be a dual system of indignation here, its OK for Falang's to display Nazi sentiment but how dare Thai's wear such things in their own country when it offends me, "an outsider".

I can see that the Thai hate brigades are out in full force, The US and Europe are hot beds of active political involvement in Neo-Nazi sentiment, which is clearly not the same in Thailand!Public display of nazi memorabillia is banned and illegal in europe,try finding a copy of mein kampf at most local bookstores in europe good luck....

But i once saw a bunch of real deal skinheads having fun with the ladies in bangla road phuket,i don't think those boys came to Thailand for an international congress of the aryan brotherhood.

Cheers:

[Docno]

I'm sorry, but that's not always the case. For example, Disney has made a series of kid-oriented movies about a group of puppies with super-powers called the Buddies. Despite protests from Buddhists, they have not changed the name of one of the dogs which is named 'Buddha'. And the Buddha Bar franchise continues with its name as well (again despite protests from devout Buddhists)....

Down Mexico way, Jesus, pronounced heysus is quite common. The dog could easily be called jesus, with no problems.

Yeah, and a lot of Muslims are named Mohammed, but it's a very matter to call your dog Mohammed (or Jesus for that matter). Are you aware of any dogs named Jesus, or are you just making assumptions? [i'm sure there are some out there, perhaps even in Mexico, but I doubt it is a common name... when Mexicans name their kids 'Jesus' they do so out of reverence for their god, so I doubt they'd name their dog Jesus as well].

Heysus (jesus) is a fairly common name and I don't give it much credence either way.

Yep, and you probably wouldn't name your kid 'Jesus' either. The point is that the people who are willing to name their kid Jesus would probably never imagine giving their dog that name (and would probably be offended if someone else did).

[Shaunduhpostman]

To me the worst thing is that most people don't seem to particularly care about something as abhorrent and unfortunately commonplace as genocide, whether they are Thai or from elsewhere. Perhaps it is so awful that most people have to deny it, it degrades you as a member of the human species to thin that that is what we do to each other again and again.

Much less, people can't be bothered to be concerned with addressing the human behavior and events that are related and sometimes culminate in genocide. Authoritarianism and lopsided unilateral power is a reaity we all have to cope with at home, or school, or at work. It is just accepted that people will seize absolute control and wreak havoc if that's what they see fit to do. Even the Jews in Israel seem to not care given their handling of the Palestinians, you'd think they'd be more understanding but the opposite seems to be true and it seems to me the Palestainians are being treated pretty brutally and insensitively, a situation that seems like it could easily escalate into a holocaust like scenario.

It is rare that the genocides that took place within some of our own countries are acknowledged as such, the Native American genocide and perhaps even the potatoe famine in Ireland might qualify, I don't know what happened with the native populations in Australia, though I would be surprised if they were allowed to carry on undisturbed.

Bring up Pol Pot, which I have done with Thais, and the response is along the lines of, "Are you kidding me? Why are you even going there, who cares what happened in Cambodia.Good, I'm glad it happened." The way I see it, what happened in Cambodia or China, or what China is doing in Tibet is especially worrisome. The authoritarian traditional culture in which leaders may not be questioned and are due respect simply because of their position which is found throughout Asia and in Thailand as well gets combined with a modern industrialized or semi-industrialized society and before you know it you are teetering on having a genocidal situation or you flat out get it.

It is alarmingly too close to home. I think it could easily happen in Thailand, we have already seen that people were too ready and still are to ready to hand the whole country over to the Thaksins, and then we will just be at his mercy and have to hope he doesn't decide to just haul off and exterminate people on a wider scale than what we saw with the war on drugs (3,500 extra-judicial killings). That this crime of Thaksin's is never particularly objected to in Thailand --the focus always seems to be on the money scamming he did-- to me seems much more chilling or offensive, I suppose, than people absent mindedly-ignorantly wearing t-shirts with swastikas for fun. It's almost like some kind of foreboding message to see people wearing them and I almost want to thank them for warning me.

[kikoman]

My statement was that Nazi Memorabilia is not banned or illegal in the European Union. The E.U in 2005 dropped a proposal to ban Nazi symbols.

While Germany and France and other countries over the years since WWII have banned the Nazi symbols,

"The public use and dissemination of racist symbols is forbidden (with a clause) they are banned when used to promote a corresponding ideology."

I also saw in my last visit to Phoenix AZ a massed demonstration of uniformed Nazi's under the Swastika flags (many) leading an anti-immigration rally, that turned violent as the police intervention and tear gas cut down on the level of Violence..

My perception is that differs quite a bit from a bunch of real deal skinheads having "fun" with the ladies in Phuket or Prince Harry wearing a Nazi uniform.

Point of Information: These real deal skinheads of the Aryan Brotherhood had to be non Thai's, as real deal skinheads are White Supremacist in North America!

Cheers:

[Dap]

Down Mexico way, Jesus, pronounced heysus is quite common. The dog could easily be called jesus, with no problems.

Yeah, and a lot of Muslims are named Mohammed, but it's a very matter to call your dog Mohammed (or Jesus for that matter). Are you aware of any dogs named Jesus, or are you just making assumptions? [i'm sure there are some out there, perhaps even in Mexico, but I doubt it is a common name... when Mexicans name their kids 'Jesus' they do so out of reverence for their god, so I doubt they'd name their dog Jesus as well].

Heysus (jesus) is a fairly common name and I don't give it much credence either way.

Yep, and you probably wouldn't name your kid 'Jesus' either. The point is that the people who are willing to name their kid Jesus would probably never imagine giving their dog that name (and would probably be offended if someone else did).

You are correct in that I would never name my child Jesus simply to spare the him/her from the inevitable abuse, and btw, I would never name any child spot or rover for the same reason. An interesting thought I had earlier was, although I give little thought to any importance placed on the names Mohammed or Jesus, Hitler (otoh) invokes tangible distaste.

[wilcopops]

My statement was that Nazi Memorabilia is not banned or illegal in the European Union. The E.U in 2005 dropped a proposal to ban Nazi symbols.

While Germany and France and other countries over the years since WWII have banned the Nazi symbols,

"The public use and dissemination of racist symbols is forbidden (with a clause) they are banned when used to promote a corresponding ideology."

I also saw in my last visit to Phoenix AZ a massed demonstration of uniformed Nazi's under the Swastika flags (many) leading an anti-immigration rally, that turned violent as the police intervention and tear gas cut down on the level of Violence..

My perception is that differs quite a bit from a bunch of real deal skinheads having "fun" with the ladies in Phuket or Prince Harry wearing a Nazi uniform.

Point of Information: These real deal skinheads of the Aryan Brotherhood had to be non Thai's, as real deal skinheads are White Supremacist in North America!

Cheers:

My statement was that Nazi Memorabilia is not banned or illegal in the European Union. The E.U in 2005 dropped a proposal to ban Nazi symbols.

While Germany and France and other countries over the years since WWII have banned the Nazi symbols,

"The public use and dissemination of racist symbols is forbidden (with a clause) they are banned when used to promote a corresponding ideology."

I also saw in my last visit to Phoenix AZ a massed demonstration of uniformed Nazi's under the Swastika flags (many) leading an anti-immigration rally, that turned violent as the police intervention and tear gas cut down on the level of Violence..

My perception is that differs quite a bit from a bunch of real deal skinheads having "fun" with the ladies in Phuket or Prince Harry wearing a Nazi uniform.

Point of Information: These real deal skinheads of the Aryan Brotherhood had to be non Thai's, as real deal skinheads are White Supremacist in North America!

Cheers:

My statement was that Nazi Memorabilia is not banned or illegal in the European Union. The E.U in 2005 dropped a proposal to ban Nazi symbols.

While Germany and France and other countries over the years since WWII have banned the Nazi symbols,

"The public use and dissemination of racist symbols is forbidden (with a clause) they are banned when used to promote a corresponding ideology."

I also saw in my last visit to Phoenix AZ a massed demonstration of uniformed Nazi's under the Swastika flags (many) leading an anti-immigration rally, that turned violent as the police intervention and tear gas cut down on the level of Violence..

My perception is that differs quite a bit from a bunch of real deal skinheads having "fun" with the ladies in Phuket or Prince Harry wearing a Nazi uniform.

Point of Information: These real deal skinheads of the Aryan Brotherhood had to be non Thai's, as real deal skinheads are White Supremacist in North America!

Cheers:

" These real deal skinheads of the Aryan Brotherhood had to be non Thai's, as real deal skinheads are White Supremacist in North America!" - certainly NOT the "real-deal" skinheads of UK in the 60s / 70s or 80s...

[Asiantravel]

seems like it is not only the Thai’s the that can be accused of being ignorant about this issue now?

Why were swastikas carved into stonework of council offices completed at the outbreak of WWII?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2567858/Why-swastikas-carved-stonework-council-offices-completed-outbreak-WWII.html

Edited February 26, 2014 by Asiantravel

[Kitsune]

There is no confusion in mind, when I see a Nazi Hakenkreuz shop in BKK, I easily recognize the Nazi symbol.

The problem is Thai don't have a clue what Nazism is and wear it as a rebellion symbol.

[celso]

What about when someone is wearing a t shirt of a cute bear, and the bear has hitler's face?

[Familyonthemove]

I think most Thai people know the difference - but they are very vague when it comes to European history. I guess WWII was all about Japan for Thailand. Out of curiosity I asked some Thai friends about this T shirt I saw in a Bangkok Street market and most only knew it was military, and all said it was just fashion. I just hope none of my Thai friends wear something like this on a trip to Europe.

[52midnight]

Personally, I find the most interesting aspect of the ancient svastika symbol is its symbolic meaning as the Hindu equivalent of the Chinese yin-yang symbol. Both are used in teaching the fundamentals of cosmology to denote the appearance of the sattvic guna manifest as circulating energy, most visibly evident in the shapes of spiral galaxies. This is why it has always been so deeply revered by "those who see the essence of things" (Gita). The psychic/psychological "power" of the symbol is why it was selected by the Nazis (all steeped in the black arts) then reversed and rotated to denote their corruption of an elemental power.

[canucky]

A belated thank you....I too confused the symbol when I visited Thailand eons ago but other than the Buddhist link I was ignorant of the specifics. I was informed way back when that the symbol represented...purity.....is this correct?

[camerata]

Some off-topic and nonsense posts have been deleted. The subject is the Buddhist swastika symbol, folks.

[camerata]

One post commenting on moderation has been deleted. From the forum rules:

10) Do not discuss moderation publicly in the open forum; this includes individual actions, and specific or general policies and issues. You may send a PM to a moderator to discuss individual actions or email support (at) thaivisa.com to discuss moderation policy.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=extras&section=boardrules

Please note that as per the Buddhist forum guidelines, "People of all faiths - atheists and agnostics, too - are invited to post provided what you have to say is relevant to Buddhism. This is a place where those who are involved in Buddhism already can discuss views and ideas; where those new to Buddhism or the merely curious can ask questions about Buddhism and get answers from other members; and where we can all share information about Buddhism in Thailand in particular. While views on Buddhism as practiced in other schools of Buddhism and in other countries are welcome, the primary focus is the Thai brand of Theravada Buddhism."

In other words, this is a place for serious discussion of Buddhism, and the general banter and negativity towards Thailand that is found in some other forums is not welcome here.

When topics veer away from Buddhism, it's likely that a whole batch of posts from different posters will be deleted to try and get things back on track, regardless of whether they contain some relevant comments or not. And that includes replies quoting the off-topic posts.

The OP in this thread was asking why foreigners are confused about the "Thai" (i.e. Buddhist/Hindu) and Nazi swastika. He was not asking about Thai attitudes to Nazism, which is not relevant to Buddhism and is where the thread went off-topic.