Relationship Crisis

[dariusregan]

Hi my name is Darius I am English I am currently living and working in Bangkok and I am in need of help from the Thai ladies on this forum.

I have had a relationship with a Thai lady for six months. All until recently was well. I will be clear and maybe a little blunt as I need help.

She is an optician and has a number of expensive qualifications. She is originally from Issan and the family is dirt poor, we have been up and I have seen. I can only see one way she could have earned the money for her education either as a working girl or a farang sponsor. I have never broached this subject with her and do not know but suspect it may have some bearing on matters.

Our sex life was great and all was fine until I conceived the idea of buying her some silk knickers and suspenders. Now I can’t be the first man in Thailand to conceive this idea as there are expensive lingerie shops all over Bangkok. As a surprise whilst out one day I took her in to one of the shops and announced that I would buy for her. OK a little insensitive maybe we should have discussed it first.

She threw a complete fit announcing that, with my limited understanding of Thai, that that ‘was not who she was’ and stormed off.

It is now two weeks later ad she will not see me or take my calls and she calls the security guard if I enter her workplace.

I assume she thinks that somehow I have called her a whore and I can only imagine that this is some throw back to what I think may be in her past but I just do not know and as she will not talk to me so I can’t find out.

Which is were I hope you Thai ladies can help.

So what can I do or say?

Is there a traditional gift I can give that says ‘forgive me’?

May I raise the subject with a female friend of hers for a message to be passé on or would that be an insult too?

I really need help here or my relationship is gone.

[britmaveric]

Last time I sent my lady into the lingerie shop... she came out with granny bloomers and she was quite chuffed. I wasn't!

Edited April 5, 2006 by britmaveric

[sbk]

Seems a bit unfair on the lady that you assume she earned her money that way, it is entirely possible that she got help from the government.

Sounds to me like you have entered this relationship making assumptions about her that perhaps should not have been made. Perhaps she sensed your attitude and feels that you are calling her a prostitute. I would suspect you would get just such a reaction from a girl who had not been in the trade as well, so again, you are making unfair assumptions.

Seems to me like YOU need the attitude adjustment here and this is her way of letting you know she knows what you really think of her.

Flowers and a very sincere apology may help but I wouldn't count on it.

[Boo]

Her education doesn't nessecarily mean that she had a sponser or worked as a working girl. Families frequently put themselves in huge debt for their kids education or future prospects, my own MIL was prepared to take a huge loan for my husband to be bought a job at the local electricity board (she didn't in the end but the bank was going to loan her the money even though she is a widow with no income expect what her sons send & owning her own land & house (not a nice house!)

As for the underwear thing, I have never met a thai lady with the same appriciation of sexy underwear as their farang counterparts & the issan women I know are not "provocative" in any sense. So she may have thought that the underwear thing was some negative suggestion on her virtue (!) & is totally offended. Discussing this with one of her friends is a really bad idea as well. Send her flowers & a letter (maybe take it to a translation place & have them write it in thai so there is NO confusion to what you are saying) & hope she can be reasonable & accept it!

All the best.

[Farma]

I have to agree with Boo on a possible solution to your problem. It may take a while and a few attempts to gain her confidence back.

Your ideas on how she gained her education definitely need to change. I know a few medical professionals who gained their qualifications after receiving scholarships into Chula. Others made it through Uni after their parents obtained loans by mortgaging the farm.

Good luck with your reconciliation. I also suggest she may be looking for a promise of a more permanent relationship with you in the future. Marriage will definitely be in her thoughts.

All the best.

Farma

[BKK90210]

Hi my name is Darius I am English I am currently living and working in Bangkok and I am in need of help from the Thai ladies on this forum.

I have had a relationship with a Thai lady for six months. All until recently was well. I will be clear and maybe a little blunt as I need help.

She is an optician and has a number of expensive qualifications. She is originally from Issan and the family is dirt poor, we have been up and I have seen. I can only see one way she could have earned the money for her education either as a working girl or a farang sponsor.

Sometimes I’m amaze at how most western men see thai women in general. They usually see Thailand as "oh!! country of prostitutes" – cheap and easy sex. I agree that there are many bar girls in Pattaya and Patpong but it is a small perecentage of total Thai girls. It depends on where you select to go and who you select to meet.

These western men are living in the ivory towers back home and looking down at Thailand and think women are so plenty and readily available and all poor thai women love farangs for money. If this is the case we would have all isaan women all over Pattaya, Patpong, phuket or other tourist hotspots in millions. Some westerners just can’t accept that some poor women choose to work in a back-breaking job while sending themselves through school….unlike some others who just took an easy way out and choose to work on their back instead!

Our sex life was great and all was fine until I conceived the idea of buying her some silk knickers and suspenders. Now I can’t be the first man in Thailand to conceive this idea as there are expensive lingerie shops all over Bangkok. As a surprise whilst out one day I took her in to one of the shops and announced that I would buy for her. OK a little insensitive maybe we should have discussed it first.

She threw a complete fit announcing that, with my limited understanding of Thai, that that ‘was not who she was’ and stormed off.

You may not be the first man in Thailand who conceived this idea but one of the bad and stupid few who acts out in public! Thai men are usually very discrete about doing this and in no way will bring their girlfriends to the shops in broad daylight! No wonder she’s thinking that you think of her as a prostitutes or working girls.

Most good thaigirls will not even be seen in front or near these type of shops. It’s also a face thing here in Thailand. She will lose face, value, and status by doing so.

It is now two weeks later ad she will not see me or take my calls and she calls the security guard if I enter her workplace.

I assume she thinks that somehow I have called her a whore and I can only imagine that this is some throw back to what I think may be in her past but I just do not know and as she will not talk to me so I can’t find out.

She’s educated and seems to possess quite open mind in conducting the relationship with you. Seem to me originally she thought of you differently than other farangs and had give you the benefits of the doubt of being a non-typical farang, or so she hopes.

But now she had been insulted big time by you!....and no way she will forgive and forget easily anytime soon. It’s like being called a prostitute even without hearing it out loud, and in Thailand prostitutes are one of the lowest class in thai society. Very bad move on your part to a good thai girl!.... It just shows how much and how little you know about Thailand, its culture, and how to date “a good thai girl”.

May I raise the subject with a female friend of hers for a message to be passé on or would that be an insult too?

No. She rather prefers not having her failed relationship exposed to the world to know.

So what can I do or say?

Nothing in the first few weeks….give her time to calm down and be by herself first…..then approach her/relationship slowly this time acting like a real gentlemen.

Is there a traditional gift I can give that says ‘forgive me’?

Here some tips for you to think about:

Do realise that date with you is a serious thing for her. Good thai girls don’t usually sleep around easily.

Do realise when you become her boyfriend she will be thinking about getting married one day

Do realise that if she sleeps with you, she will certainly be thinking about getting married one day, not just for the money – and she’s not a prostitute.

Do realise that if she asks and cares about your health, she begins to like you again.....(hmm you should act sick ....from time to time if you want to find this out)

Do buy her small inexpensive gifts(but thoughtful) - from time to time, she'll know that you are thinking about her

Do ask her about her mom and dad, she wants you to care about them too

Do invite her to make merit at the temple, she'll certainly love that - showing her that you can have a fun time with her even at the temple too!

Do speak well about the Thais and her country, she's proud of her country.

Do realise that most good Thai girls would prefer a guy that seriously loved her to an unfaithful guy with loads of cash, she wants you to understand that

I really need help here or my relationship is gone.

Don't lose hope yet but be prepare to spend several months trying to get her back!

Good luck....and take things smartly and slowly this time

Edited April 5, 2006 by BKK90210

[skylar]

As a surprise whilst out one day I took her in to one of the shops and announced that I would buy for her. OK a little insensitive maybe we should have discussed it first.

I am English and I would be embarrassed and offended if my partner did that to me (more so in Thailand than Australia admittedly). You have acknowledged that it was a thoughtless act. Isaan people have an especially tough time in Thai society and therefore often have to work twice as hard to prove themselves. As mentioned, time is the best healer, sprinkled with enquiries... email her? Send her flowers, as has previously been suggested. Don't ask for anything. If you really care about her, you will wait and see if she comes back.

[ajarnmark]

Seems like everyone is blaming OP. I agree to what brit said.

Well OP told the story from his side and might have skipped many parts, so we cant decide what the real problem is. Considering what he described, I believe that there is nothing wrong in going to such shops.

I live here in Thailand for some time and I understand the culture as well. My GF is NOT from Isaan and of course belongs to a noble good thai family. I asked her if I take her to some such shop without telling her first, would she be angry, she said NO.

What I do not understand is that what is wrong in this? Also, what the OP is thinking about her past may not be true, and she should not think bad, unless he thinks in lound

I also agree what farangs think about the Thai girlz and what Thai girlz think about them. NOT ALL girlz r corrupt, there is only a small %.

I believe that some of u ppl will start blaming me too. I am ready now

[Tywais]

One of the most important things in a relationship is communication and you seem to be coming up short on that. The fact that you are making assumptions about how she could afford to get a quality education being a "poor Isaan girl" shows a lack of the above. She may well have been given a grant, awarded a scholarship, or even a government loan which she may have to take years to pay back. Should have talked about that, discreatly if you were questioning it.

Once a Thai loses face it's going to be a long haul trying to get the relationship back on track. If she ever does decide to talk to you again a deep apology is first order and perhaps try to explain to her that you didn't fully understand the culture in Thailand yet and ask her to help with that.

[Donz]

Dr Donz thinks that she has over reacted, but maybe she hasnt if she did sense you were thinking she was a postitute and think you wanted to get the suspenders to tell her you know.

But Dr Donz also thinks if not then it is probaly for the best that this has happend now because imagine if you spilt milk on the ground? maybe Vases and peices of furniture maye be thrown at you.

Also how is your relationship with her?? do you fight often?? do you see eachother much??

[Donz]

Dr Donz has no idea because woman are a mystery when trying to work them out.

However Dr Donz has asked his Gf and she says Girls from isaan Like jewellry and you should buy something very nice and send her flowers and you might have a chance getting her back.

Anayways good luck

[mark45y]

Odds are you are right about her education and that is the reason she reacted so violently about the stockings. The answer is in her style of love making. Although there are some natural sexual athletes most of it is learned behavior. If she is really good in bed and you did not teach her those things chances are she was a pro. I good indicator is how long she stays in bed after you have climaxed. If she immediately runs to the bathroom she is a pro. (This has been my experience although I have not been with to many good girls in Thailand and I would be interested on other opinions)

You figured out who she was and told her that (with the stockings) and she has no alternative but to remove herself from you. The stockings probably brought back a lot of bad memories. When someone gets caught in a deception they run.

The same thing happened to me once in Detroit. I found 40 little bars of local hotel soap in a girls bathroom that I was dating. She was a pre med student.

If you really want her back, and I don’t recommend this because she can’t deal with her past and her behavior was extreme without much provocation on your part and is a sign that any future disagreements will be met with the flight response (as in fight or flight) there is an easy solution.

Thai love is not the same as Farang love.

You are basically dealing with two prime motivators, Face and gold. If there is a billboard or a place to put a bill board or a large sign with a view of her office put up some kind of sign that says something to the effect that she is the most beautiful woman in the world. Don’t mention love or you are sorry. If you do she will have to explain to her co workers what the argument was about and she won’t want to do that. Next buy her gold. Forget about stones or diamonds or pearls or rubies or silver.

Buy her gold. Flowers are useless in Thailand as is candy or food or anything else. Gold is the door opener. Send the gold to her by registered post or certified messenger.

It has been my experience that most Thai ladies like sexy underwear if it is accompanied by sexy clothes even way up here in Northern Thailand they have lingerie shops in all of the malls and the buyers are not Farang.

Frankly though I think you have got a lady with some real issues. In the West you might have a chance of working them out but with the culture of avoidance here and about not talking openly about problems this is just the tip of the iceberg.

There is also information I don’t know. How long did you date her before you slept with her? You said you had a relationship with her for six months. Did you sleep with her in the first couple of weeks of the relationship? How old is she? I realize Thai culture among young women is changing rapidly but I would question her status as a good girl if she slept with you during the first month of the relationship.

[dariusregan]

As I was getting a kicking on my assumptions over how she paid for her education this prompted me in to spending money to find out the truth so I hired a Thai private investigator.

Remarkably the answer came back within 24 hours and I am now in possession of her work history and several photos of a younger version of my ex-girlfriend hugging a chrome pole naked.

I was pretty sure this was the case anyway as the family has nothing to sell or mortgage plus government grants? Get bent. This is Thailand some Hi So who doesn't need the money might get something worthwhile but the Thai government doesn't hand out significant sums of money to Issan farm girls. I am actually proud of her. She did what she needed to do to haul herself up and in to a better life.

So I am now pretty much convinced that this is the issue. Somehow she saw my actions as me saying I know, which ironically I didn't until this blew up, and as another poster said I don't think she can handle that I know. I think she feels she's lost face big time and with Thais theres no way back from that. I think its blown.

[Donz]

If i was you i would forget about her.

Plenty of NICE girls in Thailand that are good girls

[sbk]

Thats an impressively fast bit of detective work for someone in the UK.

[dariusregan]

In Bangkok but using Onspeed web accelerator (highly recommended) which connects through a UK server.

[skylar]

This is just about the saddest thing I've read on this forum.

[donna]

whats in the past is in the past. why does it matter what she did back then? plenty of girls in the west do it too.

she was not dancing around poles after you met her so you shouldnt have a problem with it.

if you want her back, suck up to her big time, never ever mention that you got a PI on to her and reassure her that you love her.

that was then this is now.

[britmaveric]

If i was you i would forget about her.

Plenty of NICE girls in Thailand that are good girls

Uh what is a good girl?

[Donz]

If i was you i would forget about her.

Plenty of NICE girls in Thailand that are good girls

Uh what is a good girl?

A girl who listens and doesnt lie about herself.

[LaoPo]

As I was getting a kicking on my assumptions over how she paid for her education this prompted me in to spending money to find out the truth so I hired a Thai private investigator.

Remarkably the answer came back within 24 hours and I am now in possession of her work history and several photos of a younger version of my ex-girlfriend hugging a chrome pole naked.

I was pretty sure this was the case anyway as the family has nothing to sell or mortgage plus government grants? Get bent. This is Thailand some Hi So who doesn't need the money might get something worthwhile but the Thai government doesn't hand out significant sums of money to Issan farm girls. I am actually proud of her. She did what she needed to do to haul herself up and in to a better life.

So I am now pretty much convinced that this is the issue. Somehow she saw my actions as me saying I know, which ironically I didn't until this blew up, and as another poster said I don't think she can handle that I know. I think she feels she's lost face big time and with Thais theres no way back from that. I think its blown.

Reading your post and the previous 12, I have to say that I was amazed by the comments on your initial post........

What came to my mind was that I found her reaction, as you described, very......veeeeeeeryy odd indeed and completely out of reality.

I think that most women, even in Bangkok, (OK, not all) find it very romantic if her bf/husband takes her to a lingerieshop to buy her some sexy lingerie....what the heck is wrong with that?

That some of the ladies don't like that, well....what can I say; maybe (false) shame?...but in this case the OP sensed already that his gf was hiding something and she felt 'caught', maybe because she even visited the shop in the past and was afraid someone might recognize her...who knows?

Maybe that's why she overreacted.

I've visited a number of shoppingmalls in Bangkok and even at the lingerie shops/departments there were quite a few men (and hundreds of ladies....)..including me and I didn't feel or have the impression that even 1 girl felt offended or shy...

LaoPo

[mark45y]

Some people see Thailand through Western eyes. Some people see Thailand through Thai eyes. Some people have gone to school and learned how to look at cultures through the eyes of an impartial observer not putting value judgments on things or comparing them to other cultures. Peter Drucker was an expert at this in economics and Bucky fuller in media and a whole bunch of other things.

I personally see nothing wrong with bar girls or Go Go dancers as life partners. In fact I prefer them. They are in general pragmatic realistic people who are good at dancing and other things. Sex is like anything else it takes practice.

Don’t let the other posts get you down. As far as I read this thread no one else figured out she was a bar girl. The same can be said for their knowledge of Thai face. Gold trumps face every day. This is Thailand.

But you do have a problem. If you tell her you like bar girls she is going to get angry. If you tell her you don’t like bar girls she is going to get angry. If you tell her you just wanted her to dress up like a bar girl because it is a fantasy of yours she will not understand unless your Thai is really good. Because why would a nice guy have a fantasy like that. Especially in Thailand where guys don’t have fantasies because they are all reasonably priced and readily available. Only guys in the West have fantasies.

If you really want this chic, 5 baht of gold will do the job nicely and be prepared never to discuss bar girls until that night that she has to much to drink and feels the compulsive need to tell you her life story. Then she’ll cry and act remorseful and you will have to spend another few baht gold to get her in a good mood again.

This has happened to me twice when I was dating reformed porn stars. One I already knew about because she had an unforgettable trademark (gold nails) which she kept even after she quit the business and went back to college for her PHD. The other one, her 12 year old daughter told me one day. She said, “did you know mommy used to be in naked movies?” I almost died laughing. It took the ladies about a year before they had that moment of clarity and just had to get it off of their chest. In any event good luck.

I completely agree with Donz. There are plenty of nice girls in Thailand that are good girls and a lot of those have worked in bars and Go go’s. Because being a nice girl or a good girl is a matter of the heart and soul and has little to do with occupation or Western morality.

I would imagine now the other posters will attack your credibility and call you a troll but that seems to be normal when there is a difference of opinion. Don’t let it bother you.

Edited April 6, 2006 by mark45y

[mark45y]

This is just about the saddest thing I've read on this forum.

What was the saddest?

[kat]

.... Remarkably the answer came back within 24 hours and I am now in possession of her work history and several photos of a younger version of my ex-girlfriend hugging a chrome pole naked ...

... I am actually proud of her. She did what she needed to do to haul herself up and in to a better life.

Wow - 24 hours does seem remarkably quick to get a work history - with pictures!

At any rate, I think she deserves a lot of credit for actually putting herself through school, and making a more independent life for herself. Good for her!!!

I don't think all is gone yet. Don't give up so easily.

... If you tell her you just wanted her to dress up like a bar girl because it is a fantasy of yours she will not understand unless your Thai is really good. Because why would a nice guy have a fantasy like that. Especially in Thailand where guys don’t have fantasies because they are all reasonably priced and readily available. Only guys in the West have fantasies.

[dariusregan]

Kat,

Yes amazing. I had a scan of her ID card, which I took for other reasons. That was all that seemed to be required. I didn't ask how they got the information but I think we can all guess.

Don't worry not giving up yet.

[britmaveric]

Kat,

Yes amazing. I had a scan of her ID card, which I took for other reasons. That was all that seemed to be required. I didn't ask how they got the information but I think we can all guess.

Don't worry not giving up yet.

What service did you use? I'm sure there might be other interested parties, if its that good.

[Donz]

i Dont like these investigators.

I think it should be illegal.

[mark45y]

i Dont like these investigators.

I think it should be illegal.

Why? I think the detective agencies are OK.

Look at the tremendous problems men have created in China recently as stated in the article below.

HONG KONG—China’s breakneck economic growth has seen a widespread resurgence of mistresses, long thought to have vanished along with bound feet and other mores of pre-1949 “old China.” Now Chinese wives are fighting back, using all-female private detective agencies.

“The emergence of this phenomenon shows that the concept of marriage and family in mainland China is undergoing a tremendous amount of change,” Cai Yongmei, executive editor of Hong Kong-based Open Magazine, told RFA’s Mandarin service.

“Cases of extramarital affairs, broken marriages, and divorce will be on the rise. It’s going to be a big social problem. A lot of people in the more affluent class are involved in some corrupt activities. In mainland China, most of the corrupt officials who have been exposed had done things like having mistresses or going to prostitutes in Southeast Asia,”

U.S.-based sociologist Liu Xiaozhu said the fault lies not just with corruption, which enables some officials to travel in limousines and keep strings of mistresses, but with social attitudes as a whole.

“It was a tradition in China for men to have many mistresses. Now the tradition has been resurrected,” she told RFA reporter Lin Ping. “It’s directly related to degenerating social norms and declining morality after economic development took off.”

Fire Phoenix’s founder Zhang Yufen founded the agency in 2003 after a woman she knew and her daughter committed suicide over the husband’s mistress.

She and staff members often use their own money to help clients, according to a report in the Law Weekly newspaper.

Zhang, whose business license was revoked after she ran up personal debts of 80,000 yuan (U.S. $9,940), called for legislation to punish those who keep mistresses. Mistresses who break apart marriages should receive legal punishment, not just a moral reprimand, the paper quoted her as saying.

Liu said the issue of extramarital affairs should get more widespread public debate.

“The status of women as a group should be affirmed. How can they be protected? I think society first needs a stage for discussion.”

“Justice and the space for speaking out are especially inaccessible in China today. Even though in recent years some social problems are being discussed to a varying extent in different media, it’s not enough,” she said.

Such agencies are also subject to harassment from local officials none too keen to have their private lives uncovered by such zeal.

I think you are wrong Donz. I think detective agencies should be encouraged.

Edited April 6, 2006 by mark45y

[sbk]

Well, if you are fine with spying on your girlfriend to prove your point then I can understand why you may have relationship difficulties. Frankly, I'm with Mark on this one . Either way you try to explain it to her, it is going to come out wrong.

Perhaps she overreacted, perhaps not. But you forget, it is her life, not yours and how she wants to behave is her choice. As I said before, perhaps she sensed your attitude toward her already. Ever think this is her way of getting rid of you?

[Donz]

I dont like the thought of some people spying on me from time to time.

Plus if i went to Phuket or Samui trying to have a holiday i want to relax instead of turning around seeing people jump behind trees with a camera and stuff.