UK immigration backlog 'tops 500,000' say MPs

[ava15]

I think we have another daily mail reader confused about the e.u, or believing that only those darned foreigners cheat the system!

Apart from cheering 7by7 from the back of the room what suggestions do you have for clearing the backlog?

 

I suspect none.

Wait, you now want to discuss the topic at hand at last?

[Jay Sata]

I think we have another daily mail reader confused about the e.u, or believing that only those darned foreigners cheat the system!

Here is an example of recent attempts to cheat the system from the Border Agency website;

Eight men from Pakistan and India were arrested during an operation by our officers moments before 6 sham wedding ceremonies were due to take place at Gretna registration office on Thursday (18 July).

Acting on information that the weddings may not be genuine, immigration officers attended the registration office.

They arrested the 8 men, aged between 27 and 40, all of whom were in the UK illegally. They included 5 would be grooms and 3 guests who were due to attend the ceremonies. They had all travelled to Gretna from areas in England, including Bradford, Manchester, Southall, Blackburn and Wolverhampton.

http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/newsarticles/2013/july/47-gretna-sham

All were probably in the backlog.

[7by7]

In what way were they not legal?

Given your views, you have presumably reported both them and the company to the DWP, HMRC, the Home Office or even the police, whichever is relevant to whatever they were doing which is illegal?

, typical ''upright'' reply which l expected. As YOU know from our previous ''chats'' here, l am not a grass, especially when the government of the day does not want to fund their own citizens protection from illegals. But you carry on with your quest of protection.

So do you or don't you know what they were doing which is illegal?

If you know of someone breaking the law but refuse to do something about it then you cannot complain about people breaking said law.

Unless you are a hypocrite.

You want 'something done' but refuse to play your part because you are 'no grass!'

Put up or shut up.

Edited to include quote.

Edited July 30, 2013 by 7by7

[bobrussell]

'All were probably in the backlog'

Why on earth would you suspect that?

The likely scenario is that a sham marriage is set up to allow an illegal immigrant (therefore not part of the backlog) or an overstayer (similarly not on the list) to remain in the UK.

True may be an emergency measure to put off investigation by the Home Office but if this is the case they are probably at the top of a list somewhere rather than an application languishing in a pile at the UKBA.

I would suspect precious few are in the backlog!

Sorry about the troll feeding but that type of comment is very ill thought out IMO!!

Time of an 'Old Git' timeout? (tongue in cheek smiley!!)

Edited July 30, 2013 by bobrussell

[transam]

So do you or don't you know what they were doing which is illegal?

If you know of someone breaking the law but refuse to do something about it then you cannot complain about people breaking said law.

Unless you are a hypocrite.

You want 'something done' but refuse to play your part because you are 'no grass!'

Put up or shut up.

Edited to include quote.

Very easy for someone like yourself who walks around with their eyes closed to talk. I don't like a certain religion blowing the arms and legs off kids every day but I will not now take up arms to rid the world of these folk but you defend the religion at every opportunity. Why don't YOU weed out the teachers of terror from YOUR mist that you defend. ????

[ava15]

Very easy for someone like yourself who walks around with their eyes closed to talk. I don't like a certain religion blowing the arms and legs off kids every day but I will not now take up arms to rid the world of these folk but you defend the religion at every opportunity. Why don't YOU weed out the teachers of terror from YOUR mist that you defend. ????

Wow. Just....wow. Not sure if serious.

[7by7]

So do you or don't you know what they were doing which is illegal?

If you know of someone breaking the law but refuse to do something about it then you cannot complain about people breaking said law.

Unless you are a hypocrite.

You want 'something done' but refuse to play your part because you are 'no grass!'

Put up or shut up.

Edited to include quote.

Very easy for someone like yourself who walks around with their eyes closed to talk. I don't like a certain religion blowing the arms and legs off kids every day but I will not now take up arms to rid the world of these folk but you defend the religion at every opportunity. Why don't YOU weed out the teachers of terror from YOUR mist that you defend. ????

What on earth has Islamic terrorism, which I have NEVER defended, and would report to the police if I knew of any as I would, and have done, any other law breaker I was aware of, got to do with your assertion that the people who plastered your house were somehow working illegally?

Are you suggesting that they are Islamic terrorists?

You made a post about Lithuanians plastering your house which had absolutely no connection with the subject of this topic nor the side road of illegal immigration down which the topic has wandered.

Your attempts to justify that initial post are getting more and more desperate.

I ask you one final time, though:

What law or laws were the Lithuanians who plastered your house and the company which employs them breaking?

Simple question, do you have an answer?

Edited July 30, 2013 by 7by7

[transam]

So do you or don't you know what they were doing which is illegal?

If you know of someone breaking the law but refuse to do something about it then you cannot complain about people breaking said law.

Unless you are a hypocrite.

You want 'something done' but refuse to play your part because you are 'no grass!'

Put up or shut up.

Edited to include quote.

Very easy for someone like yourself who walks around with their eyes closed to talk. I don't like a certain religion blowing the arms and legs off kids every day but I will not now take up arms to rid the world of these folk but you defend the religion at every opportunity. Why don't YOU weed out the teachers of terror from YOUR mist that you defend. ????

What on earth has Islamic terrorism, which I have NEVER defended, got to do with your assertion that the people who plastered your house were somehow working illegally?

Are you suggesting that they are Islamic terrorists?

You made a post about Lithuanians plastering your house which had absolutely no connection with the subject of this topic nor the side road of illegal immigration down which the topic has wandered.

Your attempts to justify that initial post are getting more and more desperate.

I ask you one final time, though:

What law or laws were the Lithuanians who plastered your house and the company which employs them breaking?

Simple question, do you have an answer?

Your the expert, you tell me, they work cash in hand, not tax or NI registered and return to there homeland when they want . Simple enough for you.

[7by7]

I wonder why you simply didn't say that in the first place?

Returning to Lithuania between jobs is not in any way illegal.

If they work cash in hand and do not pay any tax or NI then they are breaking the law; but are you sure they are not working under the CIS or similar and are not registered as self employed. Many people in the building trades are.

However, if they are breaking the law they will continue to get away with it, until someone is prepared to report them and their employer to the DWP and HMRC.

If you wont do it, at least stop bleating about it.

[Jay Sata]

I have a friend who has had a number of Polish builders working on his house. What they do is not illegal but playing the system.

Where or how they pay their taxes is of no more interest to my friend than the employment status of the chef in the local takeaway.

In France there are strict rules regarding builders and tradesmen carrying out renovations to protect the local workforce.

Anyone in that backlog is already here and probably quite happy to let things drift.

I'm sure that being a former accountant Immigration Minister Mark Harper will be working on plans to sort this mess out.

[7by7]

EEA nationals in the UK are not part of this backlog (unless it includes naturalisation applications, which I doubt).

I have no idea about the rules in France; except that under the principle of lex loci laboris enshrined in the regulations the same rules must apply equally to French nationals and other EEA nationals working in France. Otherwise they would be illegal.

Odd that someone who boasts of his experience and expertise in immigration matters at any and all opportunities should not know that.

Almost as odd as those who complain loudest about people breaking the law are those least willing to do anything about it!

[Jay Sata]

As someone who has owned a property in Nantes,France for nearly two decades I await your expertise in guiding me around the details of how to employ tradesmen there.

Perhaps we should adopt the Siret system in the UK to remove some of the backlog.

The French are certainly better at knowing how to deal with such problems.

Au revoir

[Somtamme]

I'm not sure what the borders inspector was referring to 'difficulty in obtaining travel documentation'?

OK, I will give you an example, and there are many more, it's just about on topic as the people form part of the backlog.

The UKBA carried out a number of exercises to remove Chinese Nationals that were already detained and waiting removal, or known to be working illegally.

Those already in detention were moved to a specific IRC and enforcement teams rounded up a number of the targeted group and detained them at the same IRC.

The Chinese authorities were involved in this exercise and agreed to cooperate in obtaining travel documents, out of a hundred or so detained only a handful were successfully removed. It was nothing to do with the abuse of the legal system, that isn't as endemic as some would have us believe. It was simply that the Chinese authorities were not able/willing to issue travel documents as they couldn't be sure of the true identity. The Chinese authorities had to refer cases back to a central authority in China, who referred the case to a region who in turn referred them to a village. It was frustrating for those Enforcement Teams involved and I believe for the Chinese authorities in London.

Pardon my ignorance but why isn't it possible to trace I.D. with a biometric visa?

[theoldgit]

Pardon my ignorance but why isn't it possible to trace I.D. with a biometric visa?

No travel documents means no biometric details on a visa, and whilst fingerprints can be checked against EDAC that only confirms details of asylum claims throughout Europe.

It's the Chinese authorities that have the problem issuing the travel documents, and it's they need to be convinced that the person is who the UKBA think it is.

[7by7]

As someone who has owned a property in Nantes,France for nearly two decades I await your expertise in guiding me around the details of how to employ tradesmen there.

I take it that remark is addressed to me as it follows directly fro0m my post.

Maybe you should come out of your fantasy land long enough to actually read what people post. Then you would know that I have already said that I have no expertise in this matter.

I have no idea about the rules in France

[Kevin1908]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23535938

Now it looks like a large proportion of the fines imposed on employers employing illegal immigrants is going unpaid. They really aren't taking this seriously are they.

[transam]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23535938

Now it looks like a large proportion of the fines imposed on employers employing illegal immigrants is going unpaid. They really aren't taking this seriously are they.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo staff, only computers. Computers cannot knock on a door.

[Kevin1908]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23535938

Now it looks like a large proportion of the fines imposed on employers employing illegal immigrants is going unpaid. They really aren't taking this seriously are they.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo staff, only computers. Computers cannot knock on a door.

I usually find that if I forget to pay a bill a few weeks later comes a red bill, then a threat about being taken to court. Next I believe, I have never been this far, is a couple or burly men come and take all my possessions away.

[transam]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23535938

Now it looks like a large proportion of the fines imposed on employers employing illegal immigrants is going unpaid. They really aren't taking this seriously are they.

Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo staff, only computers. Computers cannot knock on a door.

I usually find that if I forget to pay a bill a few weeks later comes a red bill, then a threat about being taken to court. Next I believe, I have never been this far, is a couple or burly men come and take all my possessions away.

Your right cos unpaid money is involved.

[Jay Sata]

I agree.

Hitting someone in the pocket gets results.

If I was working at the Border Agency I'd be sending out the nasty letters before giving the job to a serious debt collection agency.

They would then stick all the extra costs on so the £10k fine would soon climb rapidly.

I sometimes wonder why these organisations don't employ staff who have business experience.

The problem of the backlog needs smart people who can get things done.

[transam]

I agree.

Hitting someone in the pocket gets results.

If I was working at the Border Agency I'd be sending out the nasty letters before giving the job to a serious debt collection agency.

They would then stick all the extra costs on so the £10k fine would soon climb rapidly.

I sometimes wonder why these organisations don't employ staff who have business experience.

The problem of the backlog needs smart people who can get things done.

I read today that yesterday they arrested 140 illegal workers they knew about. The UK has a massive problem and the only deterrent is a 10,000 quid fine for employers, which is not much of a deterrent in the bigger picture. Now, if they imposed a possible 100,000 quid fine then l think employers might think again.

[Kevin1908]

I agree.

Hitting someone in the pocket gets results.

If I was working at the Border Agency I'd be sending out the nasty letters before giving the job to a serious debt collection agency.

They would then stick all the extra costs on so the £10k fine would soon climb rapidly.

I sometimes wonder why these organisations don't employ staff who have business experience.

The problem of the backlog needs smart people who can get things done.

I read today that yesterday they arrested 140 illegal workers they knew about. The UK has a massive problem and the only deterrent is a 10,000 quid fine for employers, which is not much of a deterrent in the bigger picture. Now, if they imposed a possible 100,000 quid fine then l think employers might think again.

If caught there is only a 1 in 4 chance of actually having to pay the fine so not bad odds.

[transam]

I agree.

Hitting someone in the pocket gets results.

If I was working at the Border Agency I'd be sending out the nasty letters before giving the job to a serious debt collection agency.

They would then stick all the extra costs on so the £10k fine would soon climb rapidly.

I sometimes wonder why these organisations don't employ staff who have business experience.

The problem of the backlog needs smart people who can get things done.

I read today that yesterday they arrested 140 illegal workers they knew about. The UK has a massive problem and the only deterrent is a 10,000 quid fine for employers, which is not much of a deterrent in the bigger picture. Now, if they imposed a possible 100,000 quid fine then l think employers might think again.

If caught there is only a 1 in 4 chance of actually having to pay the fine so not bad odds.

WHICH just shows the loop holes in the UK ''daft'' setup.

[Kevin1908]

WHICH just shows the loop holes in the UK ''daft'' setup.

The police have been targetting stations in London this morning picking on people at random, apparantly targetting ethnic groups. and asking them about their immigration status. A lot of adverse criticism on the news thsi morning.

[transam]

WHICH just shows the loop holes in the UK ''daft'' setup.

The police have been targetting stations in London this morning picking on people at random, apparantly targetting ethnic groups. and asking them about their immigration status. A lot of adverse criticism on the news thsi morning.

There you go, folk moan about UK problems but as soon as it is tried to be tackled the Liberals crawl out of the woodwork.

[transam]

These guys managed to clear hundreds through the backlog and make £10k per migrant.

A gang of fraudsters who helped up to 250 Bangladeshi immigrants con their way towards British citizenship and a ‘gold mine’ of benefits was jailed for nearly 20 years yesterday.

Charging a minimum of £10,000 per person, they provided each with bogus paperwork suggesting they had been working in this country for five years.

One gang member worked at a branch of Barclays Bank from where he was able to fraudulently open accounts for the ‘clients’.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2383868/Bogus-ID-gang-let-250-Bangladeshi-immigrants-exploit-UK-benefits-gold-mine.html

So now around 250 families have citizenship and entitlement to a raft of welfare and housing at our expense. 7by7 claims migrants can't claim benefits but of course once you have citizenship you can claim for the rest of your life.

Yep, ''that'' guy is wrong. I read that 32,000 migrants who were given permission to work ONLY in the UK, claim benefits cos their salary is not enough to live in the UK.

[cdnvic]

The topic is an immigration backlog. Please stick to it.

[Wezoworld]

There ae a number of points i find interesting in this topic - and stay with me as I have used TV as a source of information for quite a while, however never commented. Often the comments threads go way off topic and eventually are trolled to death. However... i feel compelled to make a couple of point (i apologise for boring anyone as it is quite a long one...)

A couple of interesting points to add to this, and I hope I don't get off topic.

The backlog has been long in the making, and is usually the difficult cases that end up running and running because none of the caseworkers want to touch them. Either the application is not covered by a process flow chart that the caseworkers have to stick to, or it is simply too confusing for any of them to make sense of. I have experienced this in a previous job, working for a global company in the UK, whereby I had to submit FLR applications for employees and their families. At the time the company had a weekly arrangement with the Home Office in croydon to send cases to be completed in 1 day. We would send a courier with the applications, the poor bloke would hang around croydon all day, then return in the afternoon with the cases complete. There was one example (out of hundreds that I submitted) that was not returned, and was held due to the individuals 'security status'. After 6 months of weekly letters, phone calls and general harrasing to the same team, they returned the applicants application, approved, with no reason given as to why his passports had been held for such a long period, without anyone actually working on the case. It simply sat in an intray, gathering dust for no apparent reason.

This was several years ago, and the arrangement between the company and the home office is no longer in place, however it always struck me that we could pay a little extra to have applications approved in 1 days, that other people had to wait up to 13 weeks to have a decision.

Another point I want to make is about the civil service workers in general. Compared to the private sector, civil service workers are paid a pittance. So in essence you will not get the level of expertise to deal with an diffiult situations or cases. You simply do not get the high quality graduate applying for these sort of jobs. Anything outside the norm must be refered up the chain of command (at each level earning a fraction of similar roles in private companies, which continues to lead to a lack of expertise and ingenuity) so the simple fact of the matter is you will not get the level of work done in other environments. Blaming the work ethic of civil servents is way off the mark. They simply take a lot longer to do things than in some other places because they need more time. Throw in the fact that a large proportion of cases are fraudulent, and it makes it an impossible situation to deal with.

Regarding the calls for amnesty. Those saying this would not be a good policy a governent wanting re-election - please refer to the recent US election, where Obama basically won it on the commitment to come up with a plan to allow illegal immigrants a way to become legal. He won by a huge majority in the latin american sector, and is now going through a process of a type of 'amnesty' for those that meet certain requirements. Please don't take this comment to say I think UK immigration should go through an Amnesty process, however it is an option to remove the backlog.

Unfortunately the whole immigration process in the UK is slightly broken, and fixing it appears to be such a huge job that no one really wants to take it on. Allowing private companies to deal with applications will bring it's own problems with rules and costs, so it is easy to comment on what is broken, but so much more difficult to find a resolution.

My own recent experience does baffle me though. We submitted an application for a visit visa to the UK for my (thai) wife last December, which was declined, pretty much on the basis that the ECO was not convinced that we would leave the UK after a 3 week visit. This was my own fault for not providing enough information, and we didn't re-apply as the moment had passed (we were going for my mothers 60th b'day and xmas).

HOWEVER, we have have just spent a month in Europe, visiting Italy, Switzerland, NL, Belgium and France, on a multi-entry Schengen visa issued for free by the italian embassy with no more than a return flight confirmation and copies of our marriage cert and my passport. It strikes me as ridiculous that we can visit any one of 26(?) countries in Europe, based on my nationality (UK) as a EU member state, but not visit my home country. In fact it boggles the mind.

The system is definitely broken, and the UK is becoming more and more 'anti-immigration', but in all the wrong areas.

Like I previously said, i know what is broken, but I have no idea how to fix it.

[7by7]

I've stayed out of this topic since it has been dragged way off topic by those with an agenda. But want to say that your post does make some very valid points on the actual subject of the topic.

However, although not relevant to the topic, I'd like to comment on

we have have just spent a month in Europe, visiting Italy, Switzerland, NL, Belgium and France, on a multi-entry Schengen visa issued for free by the italian embassy with no more than a return flight confirmation and copies of our marriage cert and my passport. It strikes me as ridiculous that we can visit any one of 26(?) countries in Europe, based on my nationality (UK) as a EU member state, but not visit my home country. In fact it boggles the mind.

The reason you found it so easy to visit other EEA countries is down to the EEA freedom of movement regulations and you being a UK citizen.

Had you been the national of another EEA country, let's say France, your wife would have found it just as easy, simple, and free to obtain a visa, called an EEA family permit, to visit the UK.

However, because these regulations don't apply to the country of which the EEA spouse is a citizen then she would have had to meet the more rigorous French visa requirements in order to visit France, as she did to obtain a UK visit visa because you are British.

Sounds daft, but that's the way the EEA regulations work.

Edited August 3, 2013 by 7by7

[Wezoworld]

Thanks 7by7, that is indeed all true.

Slightly more off topic - the EEA family permit rules also apply to the UK, providing the UK citizen has worked in another EEA member state for 3 months or more (and can prove it) their partner would be allowed to enter the UK as an EEA family permit holder.

I believe it is refered to as the 'Sarinder Singh' route after the first person to take advantage of the route.

Not a commonly known piece of information, but it is a way of 'getting around' the requirements for a spouse visa to the UK (providing you have the ability to work in europe for 3 months +)