It's a pity the practice of Buddhism doesn't recommend song.

[rockyysdt]

I don't know if there are precepts relating to Monks, but on retreat one of the rules is thus:

1. Intend not to dance, sing, play or listen to music, watch shows, wear
   garlands, ornaments and beautify oneself with perfumes and cosmetics.

In life, more now than in the past, I've gained interest in the lyrics of song, and not as before, just the sound.

I find lyrics a powerful vehicle for human thought and expression.

Lyrics which such poetry, they may eloquently convey feelings such as love and many other emotions.

Words sung in such a way that they precipitate feelings and emotions.

Things which make life worth living.

Are they wrong in terms of Buddhism?

Are there rules in terms of what can be listened to and what can't?

Edited July 13, 2013 by rockyysdt

[camerata]

I believe listening to music is a relatively mild dukkata offence for monks, the idea being that it is indulging in sensory pleasure. I think we had a thread about this before and someone pointed out that it can be difficult to meditate with a tune or song going round and round in your head.

Ajahn Brahm once commented on how we are all addicted to emotion. He gave the obvious example of people scaring themselves with ghost movies. But there's a lot of emotion in music.

Personally, I like music and opera too much to give it up at present. Opera also involves acting, and acting is wrong livelihood. Who knew?! Actors end up in the Hell of Laughter!

"Any beings who are not devoid of passion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of passion, focus with even more passion on things inspiring passion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of aversion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of aversion, focus with even more aversion on things inspiring aversion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival.

Thus the actor — himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless — with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter. But if he holds such a view as this: 'When an actor on the stage, in the midst of a festival, makes people laugh & gives them delight with his imitation of reality, then with the breakup of the body, after death, he is reborn in the company of the laughing devas,' that is his wrong view. Now, there are two destinations for a person with wrong view, I tell you: either hell or the animal womb."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sacca/sacca4/samma-ajivo/index.html

[Sheryl]

For laypeople only the 5 precepts are expected and there is no problem with listening to music. Not while on a meditation retreat, obviously -- I find it inadvisable to listen to music even 1-2 days before going into retreat, it otherwise echoes in my head (ditto TV/video) which is a nuisance and means it takes that much longer for the mind to quiet down and be able to concentrate.

(In particular I strongly recommend against watching the BBC miniseries "The Tudors" prior to a meditation retreat. Just an aside)

For monks, they are supposed to refrain, I think the idea being that the whole point of being a monk is supposed to be dedicating yourself full time to the practice, in which case music would distract the mind and be counterproductive to the effort to maintain constant mindfulness/awareness. Movies & videos didn't exist back when this precept was formulated but I think would fall into it as well, same idea.

As to what to listen to/watch/read and what not, no, no particular rules but logically for your own benefit you should avoid things that tend to breed unwholesome mental states in favor of things that produce positive or neutral mental states.

[weary]

If the lyrics are 'buddho buddho' then perhaps having it on repeat in your mind may even be turned into something useful?

Edited July 15, 2013 by weary

[camerata]

I got a CD of various Buddhist chants set to music from a temple. It makes very pleasant listening. I've heard it played at several temples too.

[Several]

I think not. Chanting is plenty, and though originally to recall the teachings it has changed into something else. I like the call to prayer in Islam, like love songs to god. But the Christian way of having anything from a guitar to a whole band playing cheesy ineptly written 'feel good' tunes is just one step behind the Wiggles. That and Gospel choirs are simply entertainment. It cheapens any religion to kowtow to public liking for amusing bite-sized experiences that create emotional attachment in a short enough time to not overly challenge the attention span.

I like all kinds of music, from Slipknot and Tool to Paganini. I no longer listen to more than one hour in a week, if that. It is distracting and is designed to provoke an emotional response whether through content or association with a memory. So though I truly believe that the creation of music is one of humanities greatest accomplishments, by its very nature it has no place in Buddhism. We are here to end suffering, not entertain.

[rockyysdt]

I think not. Chanting is plenty, and though originally to recall the teachings it has changed into something else. I like the call to prayer in Islam, like love songs to god. But the Christian way of having anything from a guitar to a whole band playing cheesy ineptly written 'feel good' tunes is just one step behind the Wiggles. That and Gospel choirs are simply entertainment. It cheapens any religion to kowtow to public liking for amusing bite-sized experiences that create emotional attachment in a short enough time to not overly challenge the attention span.

I like all kinds of music, from Slipknot and Tool to Paganini. I no longer listen to more than one hour in a week, if that. It is distracting and is designed to provoke an emotional response whether through content or association with a memory. So though I truly believe that the creation of music is one of humanities greatest accomplishments, by its very nature it has no place in Buddhism. We are here to end suffering, not entertain.

This is the sad part.

I find music/lyrics/sound, as you say, one of humanities greatest accomplishments.

Naturally only a very small percentage falls into this category.

I appreciate the possible distraction side of things, in particular to those who are practicing full time (Forest Monk), but isn't Buddhism all about improving ones life.

To me music/lyrics/sound is not entertainment, but an exquisite form of communication.

Banning it in the name of Buddhism sounds a little Neanderthal.

[fabianfred]

''......but isn't Buddhism all about improving ones life.....''

no...its about stopping ones life from happening....preventing further life....and the suffering it brings..

[Several]

Then we could also argue that sex is an exquisite form of communication also, and that intoxicants assist in the appreciation of either. They are things we abandon as it becomes impossible to ascend the hieghts of practice if we are carrying their weight, so to speak.

And before anyone mentions smoking, I've quit. It was also an attachment.

[rockyysdt]

''......but isn't Buddhism all about improving ones life.....''

no...its about stopping ones life from happening....preventing further life....and the suffering it brings..

This possibility is a crossroad situation.

Either re birth is "moment to moment" or "life to life".

If it's moment to moment thing then followers of the other possibility might end up with the same fate as Christians.

Isn't it better to experience such a belief through personal experience rather than hanging our hat on it?

At this stage the latter doesn't work for me.

Firstly there is impermanence and conditioning.

If re birth is life to life then that which is reborn only has a common lineage.

There is nothing permanent inside to be reborn.

The new birth does not carry a common consciousness, therefore being related to the former is of no significance.

Also Nibanna is a state not a place, you must exist to experience it.

If you suspend or end re birth, then if you subscribe re birth life to life you extinguish suffering by extinguishing life as there is no Buddhist heaven.

Much better to practice with an open mind until one has personal experience.

We don't want to end up like other travelers of totally faith/belief based religions.

We know what will happen to them.

Only the Buddha knows the answer.

Anything written is subject to misinterpretation.

Edited July 18, 2013 by rockyysdt

[rockyysdt]

Then we could also argue that sex is an exquisite form of communication also, and that intoxicants assist in the appreciation of either. They are things we abandon as it becomes impossible to ascend the hieghts of practice if we are carrying their weight, so to speak.

And before anyone mentions smoking, I've quit. It was also an attachment.

Congrats Sev.

I'm right behind you on this.

In fact, given a little time, you might find that this one was one of your hurdles.

Attend to those remaining, and then you'll accelerate.

In terms of sexual matters, isn't the total ban limited to Monks?

Also isn't it limited to unwise sexual activity rather than sexual activity?

Having said that, my understanding was that lay practitioners can be involved in wise sexual activity and communication including song, until ones practice takes them to a state of being where these will naturally fall off.

Edited July 18, 2013 by rockyysdt

[Sheryl]

Then we could also argue that sex is an exquisite form of communication also, and that intoxicants assist in the appreciation of either. They are things we abandon as it becomes impossible to ascend the hieghts of practice if we are carrying their weight, so to speak.

And before anyone mentions smoking, I've quit. It was also an attachment.

Congrats Sev.

I'm right behind you on this.

In fact, given a little time, you might find that this one was one of your hurdles.

Attend to those remaining, and then you'll accelerate.

In terms of sexual matters, isn't the total ban limited to Monks?

Also isn't it limited to unwise sexual activity rather than sexual activity?

Having said that, my understanding was that lay practitioners can be involved in wise sexual activity and communication including song, until ones practice takes them to a state of being where these will naturally fall off.

This is my understanding as well although in regards to sex there is a specific precept- applicable to lay people -- against sexual misconduct. At the time of the Buddha there was a clear cultural consensus as to what that meant. Things are less clear nowadays and hence the definition of sexual misconduct sometimes gets debated. Certainly sex in a committed monogamous relationship is not misconduct, and certainly rape and adultery are, but people sometimes debate things that fall in between.

[rockyysdt]

This is my understanding as well although in regards to sex there is a specific precept- applicable to lay people -- against sexual misconduct. At the time of the Buddha there was a clear cultural consensus as to what that meant. Things are less clear nowadays and hence the definition of sexual misconduct sometimes gets debated. Certainly sex in a committed monogamous relationship is not misconduct, and certainly rape and adultery are, but people sometimes debate things that fall in between.

Agreed.

I'd imagine sexual misconduct is activity which harms.

One way of ensuring no accidental harm is done is by abstaining.

[weary]

Then we could also argue that sex is an exquisite form of communication also, and that intoxicants assist in the appreciation of either.

Sounds like Crazy Wisdom. I take it you are not a fan?

They are things we abandon as it becomes impossible to ascend the hieghts of practice if we are carrying their weight, so to speak.
And before anyone mentions smoking, I've quit. It was also an attachment.

Life is indeed full of potential attachments, I have this amazing ability to attach to everything in order to not have to do whatever it is I feel I should - including meditation practice, unfortunately.

But, playing Legba's advocate: If we try something potentially attaching and do not get attached, do we still have a problem and will it still hinder our practice?

[dutchguest]

I think there are no general, absolute rules about anything. When music is associated with drinking alcohol and “having fun” it is clear that it does not bring you closer to yourself. The Buddha walked the path to awakening through the desert, which might have been a historical necessity for himself, but his last words were: be a light unto yourself, which means: trust yourself and your own experience in the last instance.

Gurdjieff, a composer of music, a smoker and (IMO) an enlightened master, made the distinction between objective art and subjective art. Objective art is in tune with the laws of the cosmos and brings you closer to the divine. Subjective art is clouding your mind and distracts you from your essence.

Also other forms of art like statues of the Buddha may radiate a certain peacefulness that may effect you and bring you in a more peaceful, meditative state, the Taj Mahal in India seen in the moonlight may do the same.

[Several]

The thing itself is not a problem, so yes it is the attachment which causes suffering. I'm actually a big fan of crazy wisdom, for enlightened beings. The majority are not but indulge in all sorts of behaviour based on "well such and such did this and he was enlightened."

As for the intimacy issue, it is ok for married couples to partake but again I'm thinking that only a tiny percentage can do it without hindering progress. I do not believe it is sinful, only distracting. Like music.

Though we follow the middle way it is very thin and easy to deviate from. There is nothing inherently evil about anything other than what we ourselves percieve in a thing. Even money is just paper, coins and digits. It has no value other than that we agree upon. The things in the world are as they are, music is sounds, intimacy is neurochemicals released into the system, gold and jewels are bricks and pebbles. But their existence in our thoughts and fellings is a different thing altogether. Bricks and pebbles are affluence and social standing. Oxytocin and endorphin addiction is the highest state two humans can hope for, sounds are memories and feelings and ten thousand other things.

Thus a spoon is not a spoon and a rose is still a rose even if it has no name.

[rockyysdt]

The thing itself is not a problem, so yes it is the attachment which causes suffering. I'm actually a big fan of crazy wisdom, for enlightened beings. The majority are not but indulge in all sorts of behaviour based on "well such and such did this and he was enlightened."

As for the intimacy issue, (a) it is ok for married couples to partake but again I'm thinking that only a tiny percentage can do it without hindering progress. I do not believe it is sinful, only distracting. Like music.

Though we follow the middle way it is very thin and easy to deviate from. There is nothing inherently evil about anything other than what we ourselves percieve in a thing. Even money is just paper, coins and digits. It has no value other than that we agree upon. ( The things in the world are as they are, music is sounds, intimacy is neurochemicals released into the system, gold and jewels are bricks and pebbles. But their existence in our thoughts and fellings is a different thing altogether. Bricks and pebbles are affluence and social standing. ©. Oxytocin and endorphin addiction is the highest state two humans can hope for, sounds are memories and feelings and ten thousand other things.

Thus a spoon is not a spoon and a rose is still a rose even if it has no name.

a : What is it about marriage which makes partaking OK (just curious)? I also know of it not being OK within many marriages. It's expected practice within such marriages being a catalyst for divorce.

b : Everything in the world is just something. I shared the title with an elderly Indian Buddhist this afternoon to elicit another point of view. She indicated for non Monks music is fine, providing it is good music. She specifically excluded "rap", causing me to break out in laughter. There is genuinely good music, but there is also music which you either like or dislike causing it to be considered good or not good.

c : Until we experience true Awakening we won't ever know if there is something higher (metaphysical), than our fathom long carcass and its chemical soup.

Edited July 19, 2013 by rockyysdt

[Several]

The thing itself is not a problem, so yes it is the attachment which causes suffering. I'm actually a big fan of crazy wisdom, for enlightened beings. The majority are not but indulge in all sorts of behaviour based on "well such and such did this and he was enlightened."

As for the intimacy issue,  (a) it is ok for married couples to partake but again I'm thinking that only a tiny percentage can do it without hindering progress. I do not believe it is sinful, only distracting. Like music.

Though we follow the middle way it is very thin and easy to deviate from. There is nothing inherently evil about anything other than what we ourselves percieve in a thing. Even money is just paper, coins and digits. It has no value other than that we agree upon. ( The things in the world are as they are, music is sounds, intimacy is neurochemicals released into the system, gold and jewels are bricks and pebbles. But their existence in our thoughts and fellings is a different thing altogether. Bricks and pebbles are affluence and social standing. ©. Oxytocin and endorphin addiction is the highest state two humans can hope for, sounds are memories and feelings and ten thousand other things.

Thus a spoon is not a spoon and a rose is still a rose even if it has no name.

 

a :  What is it about marriage which makes partaking OK (just curious)?   I also know of it not being OK within many marriages. It's expected practice within such marriages being a catalyst for divorce.

 

b : Everything in the world is just something.  I shared the title with an elderly Indian Buddhist this afternoon to elicit another point of view. She indicated for non Monks music is fine, providing it is good music. She specifically excluded "rap", causing me to break out in laughter. There is genuinely good music, but there is also music which you either like or dislike causing it to be considered good or not good. 

 

c : Until we experience true Awakening we won't ever know if there is something higher (metaphysical), than our fathom long carcass and its chemical soup.

The relationship question is highly complex and as you say, marriage is no guarantee of bliss. Abstinence is just the simplest solution.

Some rap music is ok. Check out Hill Top Hoods from Australia. But seriously, saying which music is ok is like saying which colour is the best. Its down to individual songs and taste. Even Mozart had his off days. If the music you listen to creates a strong emotional response then probably better to leave it alone if engaging in serious practice.

Having faith that genuine teachers know of these higher things, metaphysical or not, must suffice until direct personal knowledge becomes a reality.

[rockyysdt]

Some rap music is ok. Check out Hill Top Hoods from Australia. But seriously, saying which music is ok is like saying which colour is the best. Its down to individual songs and taste. Even Mozart had his off days. If the music you listen to creates a strong emotional response then probably better to leave it alone if engaging in serious practice.

Having faith that genuine teachers know of these higher things, metaphysical or not, must suffice until direct personal knowledge becomes a reality.

You must watch such statements in a public forum.

They can impact greatly on your credibility.

This is an extremely important point.

Is ones teacher truly Awakened and can provide guidance or are they on an ego trip?

[lungmi]

to Rocky

Download from youtube

We insist- freedom now suite -Max Roach and Abby Lincoln.

and/or A love supreme- John Coltrane

Dhamma music

[lungmi]

Tan Buddhadasa accepts "lullabies" (his poems) and Dhamma Art.

Chanting the suttas with music are good "llullabies".

For monks it is different.

Pali Chanting in Thailand is suspicious (to much lullabies) from monks who don't understand what they are chanting.

Correct Pali Chanting comes only from Wats, where they chant Pali and Thai in a common "energy".

(Suan Mokh etc.)

The best Pali chanting comes from Wats with Farangs.

WAT Metta,(Adjahn Thanissaro, Australia, GB former Abott Adjahn Sumedho)

Why? Pali is an indo-euopean language. Grammars, rhythm is not Asian.

[sabaijai]

Music is not 'banned' in Buddhism. Monks are meant to refrain from intentionally seeking out and listening to music, that's all. Hardly makes a dent in the music industry nor does it prevent you, rocky, or any other layperson, from enjoying it

[beautifulthailand99]

I once had a chat with a Hare Krishna adherent in Oxford Street - very amiable German young fella he was and I was putting the case for Buddhism to him and he remarked with a smile - lovely people but very austere - we like to sing and dance.

[Several]

"Stop that singing!"

"But father..."

[fabianfred]

I also love music although I refrained from it when i was a monk. I recently started to listen to some of my favourite classical works again...made more interesting by watching the orchestra play in Youtube videos. I find the music going around and around my head at all times though.

When I sit to meditate it still comes into my head..... so there is either pleasure remembering it....or suffering when it becomes annoying and I want it to stop.

The Buddha said the greatest pleasure is true peace....when the pendulum stops in the middle...no longer swinging between suffering and pleasure.

[Several]

I've found that when you have a song repeating in your head if you actually play the song (again youtube is handy), it stops.

[rockyysdt]

I've found that when you have a song repeating in your head if you actually play the song (again youtube is handy), it stops.

Interesting Sev.

If I suffer from repetitive sound play in my mind I'll give your technique a go.

I remember during my retreat experience that, with limited stimulation my mind would rifle my memory banks.

My mind did everything possible to remain active and in control.

Building from that experience, isn't the repetition of music within the mind just another opportunity for us to practice overcoming?

We have the potential for all our physical/mental engagements becoming obstacles to concentration.

Even posting on the Buddhist forum can offer such repetition and distraction.

For example my mind I may obsess with the need to reply or contribute to discussion.

I may spend much time formulating thoughts and composing a rebuttal or putting forward an experience or belief (padding the ego).

When you think of it, all our human pursuits may involve repetition and attachment to thought.

All fuel (opportunity) to practice overcoming.

Edited July 21, 2013 by rockyysdt

[johntren]

As I make (faltering) progress along the path I find my attachment to music withering on the vine. At first, regrets; now, none.

Sent from my GT-S7500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[rockyysdt]

so there is either pleasure remembering it....or suffering when it becomes annoying and I want it to stop.

The Buddha said the greatest pleasure is true peace....when the pendulum stops in the middle...no longer swinging between suffering and pleasure.

When I discuss this the people around me say: "To practice until you are left without emotion, isn't this dangerous brain washing".

I don't know how l should respond!

[harrry]

so there is either pleasure remembering it....or suffering when it becomes annoying and I want it to stop.

The Buddha said the greatest pleasure is true peace....when the pendulum stops in the middle...no longer swinging between suffering and pleasure.

When I discuss this the people around me say: "To practice until you are left without emotion, isn't this dangerous brain washing".

I don't know how l should respond!

Well if you worry about it keep meditating.