Marriage......

[Jasun]

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but don't 'sin somros' rules apply only to 100% Thai marriages?

I was of the belief that under Thai law, the division of assets is determined by the divorce laws of the husband's nationality with the exception of 'immovable assets' such as property, which are governed by the divorce laws of the country in which they are held.

This seems to be designed to favour the home team, ie what's yours is hers and what's hers is hers.

If you're worried about being fleeced, a course of action could be liquidate assets in your home country and move them into legally-held Thai property before registering the marriage.

There is no seperate law for a marriage involving a non-Thai national.

I'm not suggesting there is a different law, but that there are different circumstances in which the law may be applied. I'm hoping this can be clarified, as according to information stickied in the links above:

Conflict of Law section 22 - in cases where there is no prenuptial agreement, the relationship between wife and husband shall be governed by nationality law. In cases where husband and wife have different nationalities, common property shall be governed by the law of the husband's nationality. The exception is property which is governed by nationality law of the country in which it is held.

Edited July 15, 2013 by Jasun

[JLCrab]

A Thai judge could issue a Court order involving assets both within Thailand and ex-Thailand. There would be difficulty in enforcing any ex-Thailand implications of such order, however, at that point, the non-Thai person would be in violation of an order of the Court and such may not be pretty as long as the one in conempt of such order remains in or attempts to re-enter The Kingdom of Thailand

[Swiss1960]

Prenups in Western countries are often a waste of money. Many people assume "a contract is a contract" but this is not true when it comes to "women's rights". A woman can sign everything, and she can later claim she didn't understand the meaning.

But as long you don't take your woman to the West, you may have some safety with a prenup, especially if you are wealthy.

That is complete BS... a Thai prenup where you set up that everything owned before marriage stays personal property even on divorce and where you set up that jointly acquired goods will be joint assets and split in divorce will hold in front of every court in Western Europe. In Switzerland, that kind of contract is the basic prenup, even if you don't set it up in writing! And since the laws even allow you to set up contracts with complete separation of property (where wifes will never see a cent in divorce), I don't see what "women's rights" have to do with that...

Edit / Add: you can set up everything you like in a prenup. Even if some things in a Thai prenup would violate divorce laws in a Eurpean country, then only that paragraph would be invalid but NOT the rest of the prenup...

And yes, i speak with personal experience of 2 divorces

Edited July 15, 2013 by Swiss1960

[Mario2008]

There is no seperate law for a marriage involving a non-Thai national.

I'm not suggesting there is a different law, but that there are different circumstances in which the law may be applied. I'm hoping this can be clarified, as according to information stickied in the links above:

Conflict of Law section 22 - in cases where there is no prenuptial agreement, the relationship between wife and husband shall be governed by nationality law. In cases where husband and wife have different nationalities, common property shall be governed by the law of the husband's nationality. The exception is property which is governed by nationality law of the country in which it is held.

Interesting, do you have a link to that law.

I'm not aware that it is currenly actively apllied. As far as I know Thai law is applied, not the law of the husband. It might also apply only to marriages that took place abroad. (Then there would be a conflict of laws, as the law of the country under wich you got married will be different fom the law in Thailand under which you would get a divorce. In such cases internationally seen it is normally/very often the law of the country under which you got married that owuld be applied).

[theblether]

A prenuptial agreement in Thailand is only as good as the Thai judge or judges who is/are willing to enforce it.

And if those gains came suspiciously close to the actual marriage date a judge might decide there was an attempt to defraud the soon-to-be Thai spouse out of what might otherwise have been common property -- just depends how good her lawyer would be that such was the ill intent of the non-Thai spouse.

But this applies only to your assets you have inside Thailand, I assume? Does a Thai court realistically have any access to your world wide assets and can they enforce that?

Generally I like your suggestion to put everything into a trust. I have to do some research how this may protect you even at Western courts.

Trusts are very secure unless it can be proven that they were used for wilful avoidance. There are a few, very few, examples of Trusts being unpicked. Normally however it's a government agency that unpicks them, as it's a long and complicated process.

So for example running a technically insolvent company and putting the funds into Trust won't protect them, the government agencies will go after them. In cases where there is vast wealth involved, then high priced divorce lawyers will go after them, not always successfully though.

Alan McManus the snooker player was unsure about his marriage to his childhood sweetheart, he spoke to his Mum and they got an trust set up to protect his house. A few months after the wedding the marriage broke down, the Trust served papers on his wife to quit via Sheriff Officers ( Bailiffs ) and she was forced to comply.

That was an example of a Trust well written and well served.

[JLCrab]

You can get into all sorts of complicated scenarios. However, if a Thai court issues an order and then the non-Thai chooses not to comply with the order of the court, he then may be still able to preserve his assets but his life in Thailand has just become toast.

BTW the gent above says that he has the personal experience of going through 2 divorces but he does not say whether in Thailand or elsewhere; besides, I'm not sure how much advice I want to take from someone who has had to go through 2 divorces.

Edited July 15, 2013 by JLCrab

[Swiss1960]

There is no seperate law for a marriage involving a non-Thai national.

I'm not suggesting there is a different law, but that there are different circumstances in which the law may be applied. I'm hoping this can be clarified, as according to information stickied in the links above:

Conflict of Law section 22 - in cases where there is no prenuptial agreement, the relationship between wife and husband shall be governed by nationality law. In cases where husband and wife have different nationalities, common property shall be governed by the law of the husband's nationality. The exception is property which is governed by nationality law of the country in which it is held.

Interesting, do you have a link to that law.

I'm not aware that it is currenly actively apllied. As far as I know Thai law is applied, not the law of the husband. It might also apply only to marriages that took place abroad. (Then there would be a conflict of laws, as the law of the country under wich you got married will be different fom the law in Thailand under which you would get a divorce. In such cases internationally seen it is normally/very often the law of the country under which you got married that owuld be applied).

You can get into all sorts of complicated scenarios. However, if a Thai court issues an order and then the non-Thai chooses not to comply with the order of the court, he then may be still able to preserve his assets but his life in Thailand has just become toast.

BTW the gent above says that he has the personal experience of going through 2 divorces but he does not say whether in Thailand or elsewhere; besides, I'm not sure how much advice I want to take from someone who has had to go through 2 divorces.

JLCrab: I am not giving you any advice on relations or marriage, since obviously I am pretty bad at finding the right one (at least so far)...

My second marriage was with a person from Eastern Europe, but with regards to the main question - what impact has the Thai divorce to the home country of the husband - it does not make any difference:

First of all, there are dual-agreements between many countries, i.e. about the recognition of civil law events. Within those agreements, it is also made clear whether a marriage is automatically recognized and it is also made clear, which laws will apply with regards to assets, if no contracts have been set up. Prenups in Thailand are recognized in Switzerland, as long as they don't violate Swiss law.

Most countries then have a so called "private international law" (UK, Germany, Switzerland (IPRG) do have such laws) which handles conflicts in private areas between different countries and these laws determine which juristictuion is responsible to deal with which situation. In those laws for Switzerland, it clearly states which jurisdiction is responsible for decisions for which part of the assets in which countries. Therefore, no matter what Thai courts might decide about assets remaining in the Switzerland, if this decision is against the Swiss law, then it can not be enforced.

[JLCrab]

Again -- without going through all the quotes -- if a Thai court issues a judgment on the basis of Thai law whether or not it can be legally enforced in another jurisdiction, and the non-Thai person chooses not to comply with such order, then that person is in contempt of the Thai court and in some cases may even have to comply or put a bond in effect before contesting, appealing, or trying to reverse such a such judgment.

And again any prenup in Thailand is only so good as the willingness of the Thai court to enforce such an arrangement especially after listening to the lawyer of a contesting party as to why such document should be disallowed in rendering any judgment of the court.

BTW no problem Kuhn Swiss1960; my older brother is now on his third marriage and I tell him pretty much the same thing.

Edited July 15, 2013 by JLCrab

[AnotherOneAmerican]

The simple way around this.

Not tell anyone in Thailand (especially your Thai wife) you have any assets outside of Thailand.

I also found this useful in America.

If they don't know you have it, they won't ask a divorce judge for a share of it.

Edited July 15, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[JLCrab]

The simple way around this.

Not tell anyone in Thailand (especially your Thai wife) you have any assets outside of Thailand.

I also found this useful in America.

If they don't know you have it, they won't ask a divorce judge for a share of it.

You are probably right. But depending on what the size of your suspected assets might be, then the other party could hire a private investigator and, if was determined that you have made any false statements to the Thai court as to what assets you may or may not have, that would not sit too well with the Court.

[AnotherOneAmerican]

The simple way around this.

Not tell anyone in Thailand (especially your Thai wife) you have any assets outside of Thailand.

I also found this useful in America.

If they don't know you have it, they won't ask a divorce judge for a share of it.

You are probably right. But depending on what the size of your suspected assets might be, then the other party could hire a private investigator and, if was determined that you have made any false statements to the Thai court as to what assets you may or may not have, that would not sit too well with the Court.

I always say I am very poor, and have huge debts. (which I have)

Who could possibly suspect me of having money or assets hidden away.

As for Thailand, where would a poor Thai lady get the money to hire a PI, even if one that couldn't be bought off, were to be found.

Always a surprise that so many people are scared of lying in court.

Criminals and lawyers (and judges) have no problems with lying in court, and generally it never has negative consequences for them. As a lawyer, if a client is caught out in a lie, my advice always was, "tell them I told you to say that". Judges and lawyers are a close community, and the only consequence would be a bit of "mock outrage" from the judge directed at the lawyer, and telling said lawyer not to give such advice again. Of course, the lawyer will carry on as normal.

Edited July 15, 2013 by AnotherOneAmerican

[JLCrab]

Yes -- And as I have said, it only depends on how big a Thai lawyer thinks are the assets you are trying to hide ... and from what you have written, such might very well be the case.

A Thai judge can issue any order that is consistent and compliant with Thai law and, whether enforceable in some other jurisdiction or not, if you do not comply, your life in Thailand as you may have come to know it could be over without 1 satang ever being handed over to the other party per the court's order.

Edited July 15, 2013 by JLCrab

[Jasun]

There is no seperate law for a marriage involving a non-Thai national.

I'm not suggesting there is a different law, but that there are different circumstances in which the law may be applied. I'm hoping this can be clarified, as according to information stickied in the links above:

Conflict of Law section 22 - in cases where there is no prenuptial agreement, the relationship between wife and husband shall be governed by nationality law. In cases where husband and wife have different nationalities, common property shall be governed by the law of the husband's nationality. The exception is property which is governed by nationality law of the country in which it is held.

Interesting, do you have a link to that law.

I'm not aware that it is currenly actively apllied. As far as I know Thai law is applied, not the law of the husband. It might also apply only to marriages that took place abroad. (Then there would be a conflict of laws, as the law of the country under wich you got married will be different fom the law in Thailand under which you would get a divorce. In such cases internationally seen it is normally/very often the law of the country under which you got married that owuld be applied).

Taken from the 'division of assets' link in one of the stickies above.

http://thailawonline.com/en/family/divorce-in-thailand/separation-of-assets.html

[Jasun]

There is no seperate law for a marriage involving a non-Thai national.

I'm not suggesting there is a different law, but that there are different circumstances in which the law may be applied. I'm hoping this can be clarified, as according to information stickied in the links above:

Conflict of Law section 22 - in cases where there is no prenuptial agreement, the relationship between wife and husband shall be governed by nationality law. In cases where husband and wife have different nationalities, common property shall be governed by the law of the husband's nationality. The exception is property which is governed by nationality law of the country in which it is held.

Interesting, do you have a link to that law.

I'm not aware that it is currenly actively apllied. As far as I know Thai law is applied, not the law of the husband. It might also apply only to marriages that took place abroad. (Then there would be a conflict of laws, as the law of the country under wich you got married will be different fom the law in Thailand under which you would get a divorce. In such cases internationally seen it is normally/very often the law of the country under which you got married that owuld be applied).

Taken from the 'division of assets' link in one of the stickies above.

http://thailawonline.com/en/family/divorce-in-thailand/separation-of-assets.html

[Mario2008]

Thanks for the link.

I have trouble reading the text on the computer I use right now so can't comment.

[misterphil]

He's not married under Thai law or UK law if he just done the party at the village. He's not married at all, period.

[misterphil]

 

First of all no, I'm not getting married, I want to enjoy life.

hi blether,

that was your first sentence,

ill just point out that you can still enjoy life as well as being married,!

i do anyway,,lol,

have a good trip mate,, youll find a big difference there, when i worked in brazil, wow, all them big boobs and asses,, just the opposit to my wife,,lol,

have a good one,

jake

 

Yeah I didn't enjoy my first Thai wife but do my second. She's nearly the same as a Brazillian, got the big ass but no boobs. LOL