Thai/farang Children As Lessees

[srisatch]

Can my children aged 6 and 4 be lessees of land owned by my wife? If I understand it they can, but there must be trustees. Who could be a trustee in LOS? Could an international law practice act in that way or must it be a Thai national?

[Dragonman]

I would not advise anyone to consider contracts or leases involving minors! The question is why would you think a lease for children a good idea? It is very unusual.

[srisatch]

I would not advise anyone to consider contracts or leases involving minors! The question is why would you think a lease for children a good idea? It is very unusual.

Because I am old and she is very young

The point would be that the children have, at least, the land for 'a duration'. I presume leases of 30 years only apply to foreigners. Therefore they could ?? secure a longer lease. The other obvious point is to avoid the land falling into either the hands of her family or a new partner/husband after my decease

What do you think?

[GuestHouse]

You do not say if you have bought the land yet?

If not, then I would advise you consider the capital you have and how best it might be distributed, importanly as you wisely (and responsibly) state, 'How do you protect your children from being disinherrited?'

I don't think there is any way in Thai law that you can do this as Thailand has not trust law and therefore the wealth of minors is 'managed' by individuals under very lax legal controls (Lax to the point of not existing).

Start by considering, do you have a private/company pension from back home and can you contact the Trustees of your pension with a statement of wishes. If you have such a pension your children will almost certainly be entitled to a child's pension after your death (until they are 18). You may also ask, in your expression of wishes that lump sums (if any) are placed in trust for your children.

Take a look at Pensions, Insurance, Savings back home and speak with a Solicitor back home.

Leave wealth you want to protect BACK HOME and protect it with a Will - A will BACK HOME.

Do Not bring wealth you want to protect to Thailand or control that wealth with a will from Thailand.

If you also make a will in Thailand, expressly state that the will only covers wealth in Thailand and that wealth outside of Thailand is covered by a will, outside of Thailand.

If possible make two or three younger members of your family executors of the will and provide detailed instructions in a letter attached to your will describing how you want your children to be provided for. Do not put your pension, or insurance payouts in your will - Use the expression of wishes provided by the pension and insurance companies. (Saves problems with tax and worse still Lawyer Fees).

Don't forget to check your children's rights under a state pension you may hold.

When you've dealt with pension and insurance consider how much cash savings you have and are they sufficient to buy the land/house you want AND provide a fund (controlled from outside of Thailand) for your children?

If so leave that money BACK HOME and write a will BACK HOME, do not bring this money you are saving for your children to Thailand and consider taking up one of the Child Saving Options (Usually used for saving for University Fees and hence very favourable in terms of taxes). - See other threads on Wills.

If you do not have sufficient funds to buy land, AND leave a fund for your children, consider buying a smaller plot of land, not buying land at all, only buying a house etc to leave some funds back home.

Keep in mind that even a seemingly small fund, say of GBP5000 would, if invested in a tax free investment scheme, very likely provide a very generous nest egg 18 ~21 years from now.

University/College Fees at 18 and a nest egg at around 28 is not a bad mix.

If you are from the UK. Growth ISAs are available, tax free and suited for just this kind of investment.

This is not an easy problem to resolve, but you are entirely right to address it now. I'd also say your are acting with responsibility.

I think this is an issue anyone with children to a Thai wife in Thailand needs to address, especially if they have significant age difference, absolutely if their wife has a child/children from a former marriage.

Edited April 8, 2006 by GuestHouse

[Maigo6]

Great Post GuestHouse.

This is the type of post that people want to get when asking questions, not the usual sniping and cynical responses that many other similar questions attract.

I have absolutely nothing to add to this thread, just complimenting GuestHouse on a good responsive post.

Edited April 8, 2006 by Maigo6

[srisatch]

Thank you and here's looking at you, (again)

Our/my 'wealth', for what it is, is in the UK-that is property, capital, investments, cash at banks.

We have taken the view that assets acquired before our marriage-some 8 years ago now-should devolve to my son in the UK.

He is well employed and needs little though he should have what is due to him. He is the executor of the UK wills and in the event of his predecease the lawyers are executors, we have specified UK guardians of the young children and his legacy will pass to them.

Assets acquired or accumulated since our marriage should go to our children.And they are in Thailand.

Those assets in the UK are already protected by UK wills and trusts and both my wife and children will get pensions-though in the case of my wife not so much as had we been married before I retired.

It is theoretically possible that my wife could challenge the will if I died tomorrow on the basis that the assets in trust for the children were large and that the provision for her was inadequate. Though the lawyers have required her to sign a declaration that she will not do this...not sure about that!

My understanding, though, is that she would really need to live in the UK to do this as her pension, while inadequate by UK standards, would be some 60000B a month which is probably!! OK by Thai measures.And she does not want to live there,she says!

As I see it the 'problem' relates to Thailand

Yes we ie.she has two parcels of land in Thailand. one in Chiang Mai and another further South, in CNX the land has no house the other does with houses on them, and two apartments in BKK..

The value of them is not great...well not by UK measure! ..maybe 1.5mBaht for the Chiang Mai land though that will increase when the house is built on it and 1.5m for the other and some 1.5m for the BKK apartments

But they are not assets one would wish to see the children deprived of by opportunistic relatives or future step fathers!!

Though obviously there may be a need for my wife to have 'use' of them

Hence the original Q

I agree it is something anyone with kids should think about. My experience of LOS is that everyone tries to say oh Jai yen Jai yen, no one will do that and then they do. My mother in law has lost about 400 Rai by simply not bothering to register the right bits of paper and by not claiming what was specifically left to her. We have forged wills, fingerprints of dying men disinheriting children and who knows what. Result? Someone else has her land.Family! Of Course!

Oh

I should have added.as an additional caveat

When we bought the parcels of land the Land Offices in both Amphurs would not register them in both my wife's and the childrens' names because I quote 'Of the enormous difficulties in registering Title Deeds to people with Farang Surnames even though we agree they are Thai citizens'...................Ho Hum

Edited April 9, 2006 by srisatch

[Dragonman]

I would not advise anyone to consider contracts or leases involving minors! The question is why would you think a lease for children a good idea? It is very unusual.

Because I am old and she is very young

The point would be that the children have, at least, the land for 'a duration'. I presume leases of 30 years only apply to foreigners. Therefore they could ?? secure a longer lease. The other obvious point is to avoid the land falling into either the hands of her family or a new partner/husband after my decease

What do you think?

There would be no benefit to a lease over a well constructed Will. Contracts involving minors are a nightmare and would be far easier to contest than a well drawn up Will. If the children have Thai Nationality a "Public Will" would be adequate, but you may prefer for a lawyer to draft.

Of course no-one can account for fraud taking place, especially when people do not follow the correct legal procedures to register land, and in fact in most cases cannot register. When you "acquire" land on the say so of the local head man, this is obviously an opening for fraud to take place. The Legal System will not help!

With regard to the last paragraph of your recent post, you or your lawyer should have insisted! There is no additional work required to place your children's names on the chanote. Except you would have had to sign similar documents to that you and your wife signed regarding the money to purchase the land not being yours.

If your wife purchased within the last 7 years, does not have a farang name, and you did not sign the affirmation, the Land Offices were contributing to your wife breaking the law.

[srisatch]

Yeah well it is that old issue of 'Trust' is it not? My wife is furious at the idea that she would somehow 'disinherit' her children

Whereas I, old 'seen it all before' ,say that is not the issue...of course she would not disinherit them....but with some sweetmouthed future or 'needy' relative..who knows?...better have it all in black and white now

She has a Thai ID, passport, and Thai surname though the childrens' names are farang...hence the hiatus... The lawyers view? get the Chanote..add the names later..easier..As you know one is always dealing with real day to day problems/pressures.....at the end of the day if it runs away it does; they are reasonably well provided for in the UK...unless of course sterling collapses, Thailand becomes the 9th biggest economy in the world, as once forecast by The Economist, and the baht retreats to less than 40 to the GBP...but at that point they might still choose Bagshot rather than Bangkapi!

Anyway thanks for your time and wisdom!

[Dragonman]

Yeah well it is that old issue of 'Trust' is it not? My wife is furious at the idea that she would somehow 'disinherit' her children

Whereas I, old 'seen it all before' ,say that is not the issue...of course she would not disinherit them....but with some sweetmouthed future or 'needy' relative..who knows?...better have it all in black and white now

She has a Thai ID, passport, and Thai surname though the childrens' names are farang...hence the hiatus... The lawyers view? get the Chanote..add the names later..easier..As you know one is always dealing with real day to day problems/pressures.....at the end of the day if it runs away it does; they are reasonably well provided for in the UK...unless of course sterling collapses, Thailand becomes the 9th biggest economy in the world, as once forecast by The Economist, and the baht retreats to less than 40 to the GBP...but at that point they might still choose Bagshot rather than Bangkapi!

Anyway thanks for your time and wisdom!

I have presumed that as you have stated "wife", you are married at an Amphur, not only the thai way. I know however there are many other people on the Forum where the wife has not changed any documentation. Whilst of course TiT where even lawyers give strange advice regarding "don't bother" even if it breaks the law, the change of title on all legal documentation is essential not only with regard to not breaking the law, but also to ensure a smooth transition for any Estate you or your wife may leave.

[srisatch]

No we are married in the UK

We have no Thai marriage certificate

Do you think that makes a difference?

The children were born in Thailand and have both Thai and UK Birth Certificates as well as Thai and UK Passports

[dfwbkk]

You do not say if you have bought the land yet?

If not, then I would advise you consider the capital you have and how best it might be distributed, importanly as you wisely (and responsibly) state, 'How do you protect your children from being disinherrited?'

I don't think there is any way in Thai law that you can do this as Thailand has not trust law and therefore the wealth of minors is 'managed' by individuals under very lax legal controls (Lax to the point of not existing).

Start by considering, do you have a private/company pension from back home and can you contact the Trustees of your pension with a statement of wishes. If you have such a pension your children will almost certainly be entitled to a child's pension after your death (until they are 18). You may also ask, in your expression of wishes that lump sums (if any) are placed in trust for your children.

Take a look at Pensions, Insurance, Savings back home and speak with a Solicitor back home.

Leave wealth you want to protect BACK HOME and protect it with a Will - A will BACK HOME.

Do Not bring wealth you want to protect to Thailand or control that wealth with a will from Thailand.

If you also make a will in Thailand, expressly state that the will only covers wealth in Thailand and that wealth outside of Thailand is covered by a will, outside of Thailand.

If possible make two or three younger members of your family executors of the will and provide detailed instructions in a letter attached to your will describing how you want your children to be provided for. Do not put your pension, or insurance payouts in your will - Use the expression of wishes provided by the pension and insurance companies. (Saves problems with tax and worse still Lawyer Fees).

Don't forget to check your children's rights under a state pension you may hold.

When you've dealt with pension and insurance consider how much cash savings you have and are they sufficient to buy the land/house you want AND provide a fund (controlled from outside of Thailand) for your children?

If so leave that money BACK HOME and write a will BACK HOME, do not bring this money you are saving for your children to Thailand and consider taking up one of the Child Saving Options (Usually used for saving for University Fees and hence very favourable in terms of taxes). - See other threads on Wills.

If you do not have sufficient funds to buy land, AND leave a fund for your children, consider buying a smaller plot of land, not buying land at all, only buying a house etc to leave some funds back home.

Keep in mind that even a seemingly small fund, say of GBP5000 would, if invested in a tax free investment scheme, very likely provide a very generous nest egg 18 ~21 years from now.

University/College Fees at 18 and a nest egg at around 28 is not a bad mix.

If you are from the UK. Growth ISAs are available, tax free and suited for just this kind of investment.

This is not an easy problem to resolve, but you are entirely right to address it now. I'd also say your are acting with responsibility.

I think this is an issue anyone with children to a Thai wife in Thailand needs to address, especially if they have significant age difference, absolutely if their wife has a child/children from a former marriage.

Thanks GuestHouse for a great post. Stuff like this is the reason some of us enjoy TV so much. Thx.

/// dfw