Thailand urged to tackle dark side of 'Land of Smiles'

[TomTao]

Much of Thailand's income is generated by Foreign tourists visiting, foreign companies and exports probably bring in more, but if the tourism industry were to take a major hit, whether because of a sudden turning away by tourists due to the scams generating sufficient bad press, or because of a major global financial down turn reducing disposable incomes, it would spell disasted for the Thai Economy.

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[mrtoad]

When the country is run by thugs, what do people expect. Phuket I gave up on 5 years ago, total cesspool.

[mikemac]

Just for the record. Thailand gets appx. 11 million tourists a year. Very low internationaly.France tops the list with 59 million a year followed by the USA,China,Spain Italy,UK etc. All millions and millions above Thailand.

In fact,even in Asia,Thailand only comes fourth behind China,Malaysia and Hong Kong.Check it out on Google search if you doubt this.

@ super22k - I did not think your figures were right so I did in fact do a Google search. Seems like all the sites I looked at quoted tourist arrival figures in 2012 of over 22 million, record numbers I believe. Perhaps the figures you looked at were from last century.

Interesting thing is the worse it gets in Thailand the more tourists come to experience it.

The TAT is probably using the high crime rate to entice the "thrill seeking" tourist, the one who comes for 30 days in a bid to go the distance without being robbed, ripped off, rogered, mugged or murdered.

At any rate all the negative posts regarding Thailand as a holiday destination, on every forum on the planet, does not seem to be having a negative effect on tourist numbers.

And paz, whatever side of the bed it was you got out of this morning, try the other one will ya ?

Edited July 21, 2013 by mikemac

[soomak]

Those record numbers will drop sharply if they don't do something serious soon . . . the Thai's fail to understand the impact of social media and sharing of information outside of Thailand. The negative reviews, word of mouth etc etc will continue to have an effect and it's only going to get worse.

Lucky Tourism doesn't comprise a large part of the GDP, eg?

Yeah, you say that, and it is tempting to agree, but that fact is, the Internet and bad word of mouth has been in effect for years now, and the tourist numbers keep growing - so why would you imagine there would be a reversal in this trend? And no matter how rude the Thais get, the Russians and Chinese will never even notice, because they will still be far more polite than the folks back home. Scams and corruption? That won't scare the Russians off either... And come to that, Europeans seem to keep coming as well, though their growth is stagnating.

People just don't listen to warnings...

You are definitely right about the Russians.

Been to Pattaya a year or two ago, and have seen thousands of Russians, who probably thought Pattaya is paradise, compared to their their frozen dark country (it was around February or March).

For me, who grew up near a beach in Israel, it seemed like a dirty, crowded, noisy and polluted place, and I do not wish to go back there.

It's all a matter of perspective and alternatives.

[metisdead]

An off topic post has removed as well as a reply.

[anotheruser]

To tackle it effectively would mean first admission that it is a real problem and you are not going to get that in Thailand.. at least not at the government levels which would be required to get suitable remedial action.

As Myanmar opens up it will start to steal tourists from Thailand.. it has hundreds of great beach destination islands and Myanmar seems to be very carefully developing these.

If within the next few years tourism starts to swing Myanmar's way then this will be a further nail in the coffin for Thailand tourism as in typical fashion the blame will be levelled by Thailand at Myanmar rather than fact that tourists can get similar beach / island vacation experience without the personal danger both to oneself and one's wallet that Thailand is so becoming known for.

Some may have read that the Tourism minister said tourist numbers would be up next year... maybe but you have to look at where that growth is coming from and what it brings to the economy... huge increases in Russian and Chines tourists who fly in on their national carriers and prepay hotels back at home and eat with vouchers at their nominated hotels or restaurants ( some , maybe allot, of which are owned by Russian and Chinese interest) add very little to the overall economy compared to typical European, North American and Australian tourists. These tourists who add more to the Thai economy per head than the masses of Russian and Chinese are also more discerning and will look for safer and better experiences.

Thailand does need to tackle the dark side and straight away if it is to retain a strong and profitable tourist economy.. otherwise it will become truly just the walking street of SE Asia. To do so however will require an admission now that all is not well and that I fear you will not get from the powers that be in Thailand.

I agree...and Myanmar HAS opened up. It's nice there...for now.

Myanmar is lovely but has quite a long way to go to even get near Thailand for cheap hotels, a working phone system and plentiful internal transport.

To get some measure of how far behind.... The ATM at Yangon airport was the first one in the country to work with international Visa cards. It was installed December 2012. There are not many bars/restaurants (and they close early anyway) and generally, the place is not suitable for western tourist packages yet. Its probably about where Thailand was 25 years ago.

The ATM thing was true about Laos around 2006 and now they are literally everywhere. There is a pace of development where everything seems to take forever but then it all just explodes at once. Developing countries in many cases can skip the evolutionary developments that Thailand went through. For instance straight to 3G internet instead of dial up, GPRS, Edge.

At some point, the neighboring countries will catch up in some ways and then will stagnate after that. Once a place has matured to a certain level it becomes harder to keep rapid development rates. Burma, Laos, Cambodia will all in relative terms change more radically over the next decade as opposed to Thailand.

As an example not much has changed in the last years in the USA. If anything infrastructure begins to age and is hard to replace. Sure places like Thailand may be getting 4G soon but that is a slow evolutionary step as 3G has been okay for a few years. If Thailand does actually get a high speed train Laos will also happen to get it at the same time. Completely skipping the aged Thai railway system as it exists now.

Thailand in some ways actually needs to wind back the clock to the day before it became polluted, corrupt and still had a good image to actually move forward. Other countries have an opportunity to skip that problem if they so choose to.

Whether they choose to or not is anybodies guess. I don't have much faith that any of Thailand's neighbors have more foresight than their ignorant, bullying, big brother of a neighbor which is Thailand though.

[anotheruser]

If you stay sober and M-Y-O-business you have less chance of being a victim. it's great-sure BUT NOT Safe.

Name a safe country please ?

Singapore

Japan, South Korea, Laos and a ton of others in Asia have a better safety record than Thailand. I am not saying that I feel Thailand is particularly dangerous if you are careful. What I am saying is that if you think it is the safest country in the region you are delusional.

Anyway this is about Thailand addressing it's issues not how it compares to other countries. Given what's in the press these days it is hard to assume everything is just hunky dory.

Others have already addressed many issues that need to be tackled and we should stay on topic.

Maybe the false presumption that Thailand is a safe country is something to address?

You can read the section on this website under the Threats To Safety and Security section and see how safe it is.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1040.html

Here is a tiny little excerpt from that site:

"Violence in Southern Thailand - Yala, Pattani, Narathiwat, and Songkhla: The far south of Thailand has been experiencing almost daily incidents of criminally and politically motivated violence for several years, including incidents attributed to armed local separatist groups. Although the separatist groups have focused primarily on Thai government interests in the southern provinces, they sometimes target public and commercial areas, including areas where foreigners may congregate."

[MaiChai]

Police actually policing and protecting the public would go a long way to solving these issues.

[simple1]

If you stay sober and M-Y-O-business you have less chance of being a victim. it's great-sure BUT NOT Safe.

Name a safe country please ?

Singapore

Japan, South Korea, Laos and a ton of others in Asia have a better safety record than Thailand. I am not saying that I feel Thailand is particularly dangerous if you are careful. What I am saying is that if you think it is the safest country in the region you are delusional.

Anyway this is about Thailand addressing it's issues not how it compares to other countries. Given what's in the press these days it is hard to assume everything is just hunky dory.

Others have already addressed many issues that need to be tackled and we should stay on topic.

Maybe the false presumption that Thailand is a safe country is something to address?

You can read the section on this website under the Threats To Safety and Security section and see how safe it is.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1040.html

Here is a tiny little excerpt from that site:

"Violence in Southern Thailand - Yala, Pattani, Narathiwat, and Songkhla: The far south of Thailand has been experiencing almost daily incidents of criminally and politically motivated violence for several years, including incidents attributed to armed local separatist groups. Although the separatist groups have focused primarily on Thai government interests in the southern provinces, they sometimes target public and commercial areas, including areas where foreigners may congregate."

The OP refers to tourist locations, I would not define the deep South as a tourist area. I understand over the years only one tourist has been killed in the deep South, a Chinese national, who was not deliberately targeted. Whereas over the years hundreds of tourists have been killed throughout Thailand for various reasons, road accidents, murder during a robbery etc etc Another example, in the year 2011/2012, 20+ British tourists required consular assistance due to being sexually assaulted.

Edited July 22, 2013 by simple1

[elzach]

To tackle it effectively would mean first admission that it is a real problem and you are not going to get that in Thailand.. at least not at the government levels which would be required to get suitable remedial action.

As Myanmar opens up it will start to steal tourists from Thailand.. it has hundreds of great beach destination islands and Myanmar seems to be very carefully developing these.

If within the next few years tourism starts to swing Myanmar's way then this will be a further nail in the coffin for Thailand tourism as in typical fashion the blame will be levelled by Thailand at Myanmar rather than fact that tourists can get similar beach / island vacation experience without the personal danger both to oneself and one's wallet that Thailand is so becoming known for.

Some may have read that the Tourism minister said tourist numbers would be up next year... maybe but you have to look at where that growth is coming from and what it brings to the economy... huge increases in Russian and Chines tourists who fly in on their national carriers and prepay hotels back at home and eat with vouchers at their nominated hotels or restaurants ( some , maybe allot, of which are owned by Russian and Chinese interest) add very little to the overall economy compared to typical European, North American and Australian tourists. These tourists who add more to the Thai economy per head than the masses of Russian and Chinese are also more discerning and will look for safer and better experiences.

Thailand does need to tackle the dark side and straight away if it is to retain a strong and profitable tourist economy.. otherwise it will become truly just the walking street of SE Asia. To do so however will require an admission now that all is not well and that I fear you will not get from the powers that be in Thailand.

I agree...and Myanmar HAS opened up. It's nice there...for now.

Myanmar is lovely but has quite a long way to go to even get near Thailand for cheap hotels, a working phone system and plentiful internal transport.

To get some measure of how far behind.... The ATM at Yangon airport was the first one in the country to work with international Visa cards. It was installed December 2012. There are not many bars/restaurants (and they close early anyway) and generally, the place is not suitable for western tourist packages yet. Its probably about where Thailand was 25 years ago.

But if you think about it, that maybe would be its appeal, Thailand 25 years ago.

[roger rederer]

Phuket has had this coming for a long time. I live up north and have travelled all over Thailand and can honestly say that Phuket is the biggest rip-off in Thailand. It's tackiness makes Pattaya look respectable. Whenever friends ask which are the best places to visit on holiday my answer is "Anywhere but Phuket!"

[Emdog]

"The Phuket police say they recognise the problem but insist they are doing the best they can with their stretched resources." Perhaps if they somehow could spare some resources for actual law enforcement rather than the typical roadblock fine tourists for no helmet etc routines? Crime does pay here, and usually some of it to BIB: part of the cost of doing business. Keystone cops were at least going after criminals, and not for a payoff.... unlike here. If police chased criminals here, it would be like a dog chasing his own tail.

[kocheedogyi]

This article is very kind to Thailand.

[kocheedogyi]

Myanmar is so far behind the standards of advanced tourism, and the infrastructure is pathetic, making it a still great place for adventure but most people only visit the main tourist sites. the country has 99% more than those to people with time and willingness to travel rough. The beaches will never be what Thailand's are. They’re too remote and with monsoon seasons, unlike the rainy season in Thailand, investing in beach resorts for five months a year is idiocy. Everyone likes to say Myanmar is opening, the truth is, it has a long, long way to go to challenge Thailand for the drunken sexcapades and lazy fat belly drink-beer & eat-well crowd. THERE WILLL NEVER BE A SUKHUMVIT LIKE STARET HERE. With that said, I’ve been here five years and it got a dark and wild side that will make anyone blush. Certain things that go on here make Thailand seem like Disneyland.

[Tomtomtom69]

Japan, South Korea, Laos and a ton of others in Asia have a better safety record than Thailand. I am not saying that I feel Thailand is particularly dangerous if you are careful. What I am saying is that if you think it is the safest country in the region you are delusional.

Singapore

Anyway this is about Thailand addressing it's issues not how it compares to other countries. Given what's in the press these days it is hard to assume everything is just hunky dory.

Others have already addressed many issues that need to be tackled and we should stay on topic.

Maybe the false presumption that Thailand is a safe country is something to address?

You can read the section on this website under the Threats To Safety and Security section and see how safe it is.

http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1040.html

Here is a tiny little excerpt from that site:

"Violence in Southern Thailand - Yala, Pattani, Narathiwat, and Songkhla: The far south of Thailand has been experiencing almost daily incidents of criminally and politically motivated violence for several years, including incidents attributed to armed local separatist groups. Although the separatist groups have focused primarily on Thai government interests in the southern provinces, they sometimes target public and commercial areas, including areas where foreigners may congregate."

The OP refers to tourist locations, I would not define the deep South as a tourist area. I understand over the years only one tourist has been killed in the deep South, a Chinese national, who was not deliberately targeted. Whereas over the years hundreds of tourists have been killed throughout Thailand for various reasons, road accidents, murder during a robbery etc etc Another example, in the year 2011/2012, 20+ British tourists required consular assistance due to being sexually assaulted.

Actually I believe a Canadian resident of Thailand was killed in the violence as well as 3 Malaysian border hopping tourists. Never heard anything about any Chinese deaths in that region but anyway, all foreigners who have got caught up in the violence in that region were unfortunately in the wrong place at the wrong time - they weren't deliberately targeted. Very few foreigners have been to that area but unlike in Myanmar where the government prevents foreigners from going to dangerous parts of the country, which may have never been as dangerous as those 3 southernmost provinces, Thailand has no such restrictions.

[NeverSure]

Myanmar is so far behind the standards of advanced tourism, and the infrastructure is pathetic, making it a still great place for adventure but most people only visit the main tourist sites. the country has 99% more than those to people with time and willingness to travel rough. The beaches will never be what Thailand's are. They’re too remote and with monsoon seasons, unlike the rainy season in Thailand, investing in beach resorts for five months a year is idiocy. Everyone likes to say Myanmar is opening, the truth is, it has a long, long way to go to challenge Thailand for the drunken sexcapades and lazy fat belly drink-beer & eat-well crowd. THERE WILLL NEVER BE A SUKHUMVIT LIKE STARET HERE. With that said, I’ve been here five years and it got a dark and wild side that will make anyone blush. Certain things that go on here make Thailand seem like Disneyland.

Myanmar can't and shouldn't be compared to Thailand. Its growth and development will be entirely different. And that type of growth will cause it to far surpass Thailand.

It isn't about tourism. To me, Thailand's tourism is a national embarrassment. It's "bars" and scams and corruption. It's also less than 10% of its economy.

Myanmar has natural resources including lots of oil and natural gas. That alone is going to make it wealthy. It also has lots of land for industry, and a planned shipping port which Japan and the US have promised to build and use. That port will be out of the reach of Thailand. It has direct access to the Indian Ocean.

Japan and the US have already acquired very large parcels of industrial land to build factories on. My hunch is that before long Thailand will no longer export cars, but rather build them only for domestic use. Thailand's taxes and wages are simply too high to compete.

Myanmar has 50 million people as a labor pool to pull from, and far cheaper than Thailand's new minimum wage. Thailand is the most expensive place to do business in SE Asia and they are going to start feeling it as business goes elsewhere.

There are wealthy countries in the Middle East which have virtually no industry other than oil. They certainly don't have tourism or bar girls. This is what will pull Myanmar up as Western countries develop that oil and install manufacturing plants to take advantage of the low costs. And costs for living will get cheaper as developers build housing, etc.

Thailand on the other hand keeps shooting itself in the foot. The rice scheme. The car scheme. The no-down new house scheme. Consumer debt. National deficits and debt - all are ballooning. No one knows what the real loss is on the rice scheme but it isn't on the books as deficit or debt but they can't hide it forever. There is a condo bubble the likes of which I've never seen, and I saw the US housing market crash from far less of a bubble.

Thailand is shrinking as other SE Asian countries around it grow. Just give it time.

Edited July 22, 2013 by NeverSure

[hawker9000]

Police actually policing and protecting the public would go a long way to solving these issues.

See, that touches on the thing that's doing the most to stagnate the tourist industry. Thai officials have this idea, practically a tradition, that they can simply issue grand statements and announce "crackdowns" in response to any, even growing and increasingly well- and easily-publicized, problems. These "solutions" might've gotten them some traction abroad years ago, but the tactic is now obsolete, and buys nothing but international ridicule, scorn, and loss of credibility. Now the diplomatic community is always going to gloss over these blemishes (unfortunately). Thai officialdom might actually believe some of what the diplomatists are telling them, but everyone else knows the score. The "roadside diner" business model might've worked reasonably well at one time, on those lonely highways out in the middle of nowhere, often the only affordable way to get from A to B, but not so much any longer in the interstate/airline age of the gobal village. Nowadays everything is reviewed & discussed & described & shared. Thailand is still playing the "build it and they will come" game. But tourists are playing the "zero tolerance" game... Treat them like gringos and they will NOT come, not with their families anyway!

[EyesWideOpen]

Police actually policing and protecting the public would go a long way to solving these issues.

See, that touches on the thing that's doing the most to stagnate the tourist industry. Thai officials have this idea, practically a tradition, that they can simply issue grand statements and announce "crackdowns" in response to any, even growing and increasingly well- and easily-publicized, problems. These "solutions" might've gotten them some traction abroad years ago, but the tactic is now obsolete, and buys nothing but international ridicule, scorn, and loss of credibility. Now the diplomatic community is always going to gloss over these blemishes (unfortunately). Thai officialdom might actually believe some of what the diplomatists are telling them, but everyone else knows the score. The "roadside diner" business model might've worked reasonably well at one time, on those lonely highways out in the middle of nowhere, often the only affordable way to get from A to B, but not so much any longer in the interstate/airline age of the gobal village. Nowadays everything is reviewed & discussed & described & shared. Thailand is still playing the "build it and they will come" game. But tourists are playing the "zero tolerance" game... Treat them like gringos and they will NOT come, not with their families anyway!

The road side diner business model counts upon the new customer not knowing about the angry customer from a few minutes before. However with the internet and social media, that is not true anymore. So Thailand will face an increasing backlash from these well publicised scams.

So with the internet and instant communications

[EyesWideOpen]

Police actually policing and protecting the public would go a long way to solving these issues.

See, that touches on the thing that's doing the most to stagnate the tourist industry. Thai officials have this idea, practically a tradition, that they can simply issue grand statements and announce "crackdowns" in response to any, even growing and increasingly well- and easily-publicized, problems. These "solutions" might've gotten them some traction abroad years ago, but the tactic is now obsolete, and buys nothing but international ridicule, scorn, and loss of credibility. Now the diplomatic community is always going to gloss over these blemishes (unfortunately). Thai officialdom might actually believe some of what the diplomatists are telling them, but everyone else knows the score. The "roadside diner" business model might've worked reasonably well at one time, on those lonely highways out in the middle of nowhere, often the only affordable way to get from A to B, but not so much any longer in the interstate/airline age of the gobal village. Nowadays everything is reviewed & discussed & described & shared. Thailand is still playing the "build it and they will come" game. But tourists are playing the "zero tolerance" game... Treat them like gringos and they will NOT come, not with their families anyway!

The road side diner business model counts upon the new customer not knowing about the angry customer from a few minutes before. However with the internet and social media, that is not true anymore. So Thailand will face an increasing backlash from these well publicised scams.

So with the internet and instant communications