Children To A Same Sex Couple.

[tuky]

I have often been curious about what it must be like growing up with same sex parents. Obviously I have heard a lot about it on the news and in certain documentries. But I have never met a "same sex child" and I haven't come across much in the way of statistics, so I am fairly ignorant on the subject.

Do we have same sex parents in this forum?

If so, how do you describe the experience for the child?

Is it any different from a traditional arrangement?

I would imagine it wouldn't be of much concern in the LoS as children tend to have many "surrogate" parents.

What are your thoughts? no problems, disadvantaged or highly successful?

Western and Thai cultures.

[Guest The Judge]

Many, many years ago, before I got a brain and moved, I walked out of my office in an inner city suburb. I was annoyed because I hadn't had my newspaper delivered, so I went down to the newsagent, aiming to have a piece of him for the boy not bringing it up.

In his shop were 2 people, a man and a woman, who were haranguing him about the paper boy. The people, in their rather low quality clothes (suit on the man and skirt/suit on the woman, plaid from memory), were pointing out the evils inherent in employing a child who should be in school.

For 6 months the kid had delivered my paper at 7.30 AM. Today no delivery. I had always thought he was 15 and I am still not sure why because I never asked him, as far as I can remember. Apparently he was 11. They were from the Community Services department. The paper boy had come to their attention after going to hospital with a minor depressed skull fracture. His mother had thrown an iron at him.

I stood and listened, and determined to do something about it. I asked the Community Services people if there was anything the boy needed.

Clothes and a home was their response.

I went with them to the hospital and was able to have the boy checked out into my care on a temporary basis. It was late afternoon at this stage, so we went directly back to my home, after organising to meet at their office the next morning. The boy was still somewhat groggy after having been given a sedative in the morning while the staff at the hospital had been working on his head.

I fed him and then put him to bed, and got on with my work.

The next morning I appeared, as requested, with the boy, at Community Services. The first question was "Where is your wife?"

I didn't have one and when I explained that as a gay man I had never seen the need to have one, the atmosphere changed markedly. The change was evident to the boy as well.

The end of the conference and the decision as to what would happen to the boy had not been made for the long term, but at his own request he was left temporarily in my care. We had organised a school to take him, in spite of his truancy record, and his former home situation. After the Community Services, a quick trip to the school to sign him up then home for the weekend.

The following week, at about 12.30 AM, there was a knock on my door. Outside was one policewoman and the two officers from CS. Home inspection. I was a bit put off, but I suppose then I could see their point. I wasn't very much of an activist anyway. They came in and found me still working and the boy had been in bed asleep for about 3 hours, in his own room. They left. The next day I became a very angry foster parent.

During the following year I lost count of the appearances in court, the visits to lawyers, to his mother, to the school, until I was finally able to convince someone, that I was no danger to the boy. I was then awarded official foster custody. Eventually I adopted him.

7 years later, I took great pleasure in hand delivering to the CS case workers, a handwritten invitation to my sons' 19th Birthday party and combined graduation celebration and his engagement party.

What's in it for the kids. Love, support, no judgment, education, reasonable school. Whats' in it, in a perfect world? Pretty much the same in my humble opinion.

[wcr]

Well done Judge. I also bought up two sons on my own after my divorce and a very nasty custody fight where my ex wife used all the dirty tricks she could to discredit me, of course mentioning my sexuality and the "threat to my children" Luckily the court service ignored this and I was given custody and managed on my own for 10 years. They decided to go back to their mother last year, which is how I find myself here in Thailand

Kids thrive in a secure and stable home, as mine did. They were not concerned about my sexuality and still aren't. It must always be what is best for the kids.

[Guest The Judge]

In my opinioon the changes you make to work with the child/ren end up very worthwhile when as a gay man you become a grandparent.

[Candyflip]

The judge, I have a few questions here.

Do your children get confused sometimes when you are with your boyfriend instread of girlfriend?

Do their friends at school know that you are gay? Have you kids been teasing for that?

I would be a bit confused if I grew up in environment that my father kisses another man at home. I dont mean to insult you or anything, you know me better than that, just out of my curiousity.

[mrmnp]

Candyfliped, have you indeed "your name's third syllable"? I know you better than that from these forums.

A child who grows up seeing men kissing thinks nothing of it. Do you think young Russian children or the gymnasts themselves, think anything of it when their coach kisses them full on the mouth after a successful exercise?

Your question is raised because of the way you were brought up. Whatever enviroment you were raised in implanted the notion that there was something strange about men kissing each other and thus you mind set that it is strange.

Judge or wcr are better qualified to answer this one with examples from their own experience, but my observations over the years leads me to believe that children only think what is strange is what their parents thiink is strange.

Take the poligamyists for example. Their extended familes with multiple wives/mothers are quite normal to their children.

P.S. Judge's wonderful story is an inspiration to all who hear it and his courag, and those like him has gone a long way to changing the perceptions in child welfare agencies regarding your very questions. There has been such progress in this area, that I saw a post in a metaphysical forum that opined that God may have created gays for the pupose of being loving foster parents for children of screwed up heterosexuals!!

[Guest IT Manager]

I agree. Judges post gives hope to a few people in my opinion. The spiritualist who said that may well be in line for a medal but in my humble opinion, mrnmp, you certainly are.

Thanks.

IT

[tuky]

And, I believe Candyflips post was intended to bring forward people who have someting to say but do not normally share. Well done Candy.

Judge, your an inspiration.

Same sex couples with children,

mrmnp, it seems you may be able to enlighten us with a few of your thoughts.

Even though, as you say "others" may well be in a btter position to answer faithfully, we would like to hear your take on the situation.

then we can critique.

cheers

[mrmnp]

Thank you IT for your kind approval and Tuckyleith for your inviitation for more on the subject. My poor attempt at humor with the play on words of Candyflip's name was hopefully not miscontrued by her, as she is a welcome contributor to these pages.

Story #1. I attented a play, at the Pasadena Playhouse decades ago, entitled "Fortune in Men's Eyes starring Sal Mineo. Sitting to my left was a Pasadena matron, wearing her indespensable gloves and pill-box hat. Occuping the row in front of me was a minimum of five early teen girls in middle school uniforms. They could have been early highschool, but you kinow the problem of guessing youngsters ages when yours is advanced.

There was a very violent rape scene in the play, between Sal Mineo and another handsosme young man, afterwich the house lights came on for intermission.

I looked at the matron for her reaction to what to me was a shocking scene that really had my senses reeling. Her face was white and her jaw had dropped so her mouth was agape.

The teens in front of us were chatting animatedly about things other than the play and were clearly unaffected by what had just previously enveloped all of us there.

To say they didn't understand the grafic on-stage rape would doom the teenagers to a sub-80 IQ which was clearly not the case.

I really don't have any easy answers for this behavior, as there are studies that suggest violence on T.V. and in movies may well have long term effects on children viewing them, not immediately observable.

Story #2 I was so anti-Catholic as a young dating man that I refused to even go out with any Catholic young ladies for fear of falling in love with one of them, marrying and being forced to raise my children as Catholics.

Well, you guessed right. I ended up marrying a Catholic girl and agreeing to raise any children I might have with her in the Catholic church. My rationale at the time was there were alot worse things for a young girl to be exposed to than the Catholic church.

Since I did not live with my daughter during her early years, her mother had full reign with her Catholic education and from catachism to Catholic girls clubs, my daughter got the full treatment.

Well, lo and behold, she turned out to be what I call a "teflon" Catholic. Not any of that indoctrination had any effect. Today, she doesn't attend church, has no Catholic instilled "guilt" and has a very contemporary view toward spirituality.l She ended up with college degrees "cum laude" in Sociology and English, T.A. in computer science and the editor of her daily university newpaper which was published without financial assistance. The university was/is a world famous one in Boston, Mass. She just received her M.B.A. while being employed as the software group manager of the worlds largest computer company. (Sorry for the proud papa routine)

Frankly, I try to be wary of sweeping generalizatons and my response to Candyflip's post does smack a little of that but I still think kids are a little like weeds, they grow up to be individuals, largely "despite of us" but on the other hand, parental guidance may well turn the weed into a rose or a Venitian Fly Trap.

If the U.S., as a nation, had spent even a small fraction of our yearly defense or space exploration budget on the study of human behavior, the country would be in a far better place today.

[Nat]

Hi mrmnp

Believe what you’re referring to is socialization - in which case the parents are the significant other, from whom the child learns about the world around them primarily (obviously in the later stages of development peers, school, media etc are involved).

In regards to media and violence, reviewers of thousands of studies have concluded that TV violence provides children with “an extensive how-to course in aggression”. Research has also revealed that children exposed to TV violence build up a tolerance to it and they are more likely to resort to hostile ways of problem solving, spiraling into adolescence and young adulthood. This is all a part of social learning (which I believe you’re referring to mrmnp), won’t go into detail but read about Bandura’s experiments with the Bobo doll – children are very easily influenced.

Back to homosexual parents, according to research families headed by a homosexual parent or couple are very similar to those of heterosexuals. Actually some research has indicated that gay fathers are more consistent in setting limits and more responsive to their children’s needs than are heterosexual fathers. Children from homosexuals are as well adjusted as other children and a large majority are heterosexual. The main problem these children encounter is stigmatization from certain individuals and groups due to their parents’ sexual orientation.

Guess it comes down to the nature vs nurture argument. Personally, children are precious little beings which need to be shown unconditional love (doesn’t matter from whom).

[Guest The Judge]

Nat does the study overview whether the stigmatisation is of the child, by adults because of the parent, or by children, acting by proxy, for their parents?

Now wouldn't that be an interesting study.

My boy was never hassled about me, except by community services, and that not directly. He was aware of their dislike of me and used to rage at them for it, pointing out that the mother who attacked him with the iron, was, like them, straight (his word).

His school friends had absolutely no problem with me.

[Nat]

Nat does the study overview whether the stigmatisation is of the child, by adults because of the parent, or by children, acting by proxy, for their parents?

Now wouldn't that be an interesting study.

My boy was never hassled about me, except by community services, and that not directly. He was aware of their dislike of me and used to rage at them for it, pointing out that the mother who attacked him with the iron, was, like them, straight (his word).

His school friends had absolutely no problem with me.

The article doesn't specify who's doing the stigmatisation, this is just the overall conclusion reached. It would be a very interesting study, easy to conduct if evaluating adults, however doubt it would get ethics approval if children were to be subjects.

Community services does a good job sometimes - not to sound nasty, just don't think their people are qualified to deal with certain issues. Apart from that there's so much red tape that they can't do much even if they wanted to.

[Guest IT Manager]

Ethics committees tend to protect their own, so the kids are a problem due to their honesty probably.

Ethics is an interesting field for me personally.

IT

[Jeepz]

Find it challenging do you, IT?

<big grin>

Jeepz

[Guest IT Manager]

No Jeepz, wrote quite a lot about it when I was younger. Interesting to study, challenging to write about because it's very difficult to "factualise" research.

I know you are joking, but think about it from this perspective; working on an ethics committee, how do you produce "facts" that can be substantiated when the whole reason for the committee, is that one person cannot apply their "ethical stance" to an individual situation, but requires at least 3 and usually 5 people to "in whole or at least the greater part" agree on an action, before it is taken, or proposed to the medical managers in a hospital, a course of action appropriate t the particular situation being discussed.

Further, there is no such thing as an "ethics policy and procedures" document.

[et33.com]

i can accept all kinds of love as long as there is mutual consent and both parties are at it on a equal standing / of course there is no such thing as being totally fair but if the couples are happy and the children are happy / who cares / happy people grow up to be balanced adults / those who are abused are the ones likely to become ""screwed"" in the head / society with all it's judgement is in many cases / doing more harm than good because old grandfather used to wear shorts... and the views are different...

[Guest The Judge]

Good point et33.

My son grew up seeing his mum as a basher, and now with his first child he is protective of the baby and watchful of the mother.

[Scott]

I was a foster parent for over 20 years. I kept my sexuality in the closet from the social service people--they had a policy not to allow "gays" to be foster parents. The kids occasionally asked questions, which I tried to answer honestly, but carefully. Not trying to "hide" things, but also knowing that too much information is not necessarily a good thing. Tell them what they need to know and let them ask more later.

Interestingly, they never had a problem with it and on their own accord chose not to talk with any social workers about it (yes, they were asked).

Several of the kids were with me for many years (until adulthood). All are straight, none had an overt problem.

[Totster]

totster

[Scott]

Sorry, I didn't know we couldn't post things on old threads.

[Totster]

Sorry, I didn't know we couldn't post things on old threads.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No rule against it...... just had to look at the date twice.... it is a very old thread, just wonder how relevent it is now....

totster

[Ijustwannateach]

I think there was a debate about this in the forum forum section recently... whether old threads should be flagged when they are "resurrected." The conclusion of that seemed to be that it helped to note they were old, but there shouldn't be any rule against posting on them. It's just that it might be confusing to some members to see a 2-3 page thread come out of nowhere, so it's worth flagging that it's an old thread.

"Steven"