Ex-employer owes wages, advice?

[carolina04]

I quit my teaching job recently (walked out, not my finest hour) and the school is refusing to give me my last two weeks of wages. I worked there for nine months, and they're saying since I said I work there for a year that the cost of my work permit is greater than the wages they owe me so they won't be giving me them. Also that they had to cancel classes, etc. I didn't have a contract or anything that said I would be there a year, they casually asked me that over lunch, and they promised a (free) work permit from the beginning. It's a very small, struggling weekend school that teaches art & cooking, and they owe me about 20,000 baht. I think my next step is to fill out a police report, but I thought I'd check here first if anyone had any advice. Any help would be much appreciated! Thank you

[4evermaat]

Business forum or teaching forum might be a bit more targeted?

"...the 2nd best time to plant a tree is today." Sent from ThaiVisa app (Galaxy Note 2).

[carolina04]

will try over there, thank you!

[metisdead]

will try over there, thank you!

Rather than open a new topic (which you have now done), will move this one to the Teaching forum and close the other one.

[chonabot]

Do you have any sort of contract, Carolina?

[zeichen]

You quit without notice, just walk and move on. The school owes you nothing and may even be able to sue you for defamation or other things if you accuse them of something. You can try and fight it in court but your costs would be more than 20k and could take up to a year.

Somehow I don't quite understand how your contract doesn't state your dates of employment. You couldn't get the work permit if the contract didn't state exactly how long you were to work for. You only can get a 1 year work permit if you have a contract that states you will be working for a year.

You might actually get into more trouble if you haven't been paying taxes properly or if they charge you with something that you are not disclosing.

[carolina04]

Thanks for your replies.

I literally had no contract whatsoever. I never signed anything except my pay slips.

What I was confused about was the work permit. When I talked to them, they kept pointing to the expiration date on the work permit but I never signed anything stating I would be there until that date. Could the permit date end up as a pseudo contract?

The school is tiny, I was one of three people working there. It was brand new and they didn't really seem like they knew what they were doing (clearly neither did I). I quit because a bunch of things had changed from what they had originally promised me when I took the job. I don't really want to end up in court, I'm just baffled why I wouldn't get my wages and thinking maybe there's something I overlooked.

[zeichen]

Most contracts have a 30 day notice clause. If you don't give notice, you don't get paid. I personally, think that by leaving without notice, you did screw the school over and should just move on. The worst part is that you cannot put them on your resume for future jobs.

You must have signed a contract. I really just don't see how you could get a visa or work permit without signing a contract. Unless you were an illegal employee. But if you have a work permit, with your picture on it, then you must have submitted a contract with your photos when you went to labor department to get your work permit.

Sounds like they did some shady deal, but unfortunately, you are the one that is liable and not them. Just leave the country, get a new visa and a new job.

Also if you were on a visa extension at immigration, you need to leave the country when the work permit is canceled. If you are on a multi entry work visa then not necessary.

[aridion]

Never quit mid way through a salary month. If things get that bad, always plan to quit right after you get paid.

I would cut my loses and move on.

[aussiebebe]

as you left without notice, you waived your right to receive payment. Even if you did sign a contract this would have been the condition.

[Loaded]

You quit without notice. This will have been very damaging to the school especially if they couldn't find a replacement within a couple of hours (highly unlikely). Thailand is full of irresponsible teachers unfortunately.

If you have a work permit, you signed an employment contract. The Labour office won't issue one otherwise.

I'm sure this new school will now be suspicious of all foreign teachers who work for them. They will no longer rely on trust and if they want to protect themselves, they will introduce new terms such as salary paid 1-month behind, deposits for work permits. Future teachers working there will be able to say thank you to you for this.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Loaded

[newatthis]

Take the advice of Aridion posted above. Cut your losses and move on.

"You should have waited until pay day and then quit."

I know some people may think this idea is selfish but I've seen teachers sacked by schools with no notice and no separation pay.

And I've seen teachers who gave one month's notice and then have been told to leave immediately. Again no separation pay.

I've harden my heart now. "What is good for the goose is good for the gander."

Ask around before you take your new job. Be sure of what you're getting into.

[Scott]

When the application for a work permit was made, you most likely signed a bunch of papers. One of those would have been a generic contract.

Where I work, the unused cost of the work permit is deducted from the salary as well as the cost of any other costs, such as health and accident insurance. The remainder is paid to the employee, usually. In general, we are just as happy to see them go as they are to actually go.

If an employee is having a really bad time, I usually try to talk to them and explain that it would be in their interest to complete the month or at least mend fences enough to leave on reasonable terms.

What you did was a pretty big no-no.

[richard10365]

You're entitled to nothing.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[PattayaPhom]

No notice=No pay

[saakura]

Small and struggling school teaching art & cookery. To adult thais i suppose, as young children normally dont take cooking classes. And you say further that none of you had a clear idea of what you were doing? I say dont waste your time on a long legal fight for the sum involved.

[aidenai]

^ Agree on this one. Get over it and move on.

[onlycw]

Do you have a Thai friend? Have her fill out your Regional Labour Court's form and file a complaint. It is free and will trigger a mediation hearing at which the school will be pressured to offer at least s o m e of the back wages. It's free and the court will assign an attorney to plead your case.

In addition, do have your friend call the regional education office with a name like Region 23. They have a lawyer in-house. Have him call the school.

I was asked to submit something to him in writing - which I did, always using EMS (proof of delivery).

This is quite common. ***

Apologies, my wifi crashed and I thought this was never posted. So I re-did it again.

One school doesn't do WPs or teachers' licenses or B-Visa. Never got a contract. When i complained about the non-payment to the Region xx lawyer, the school came up with some "contract" - all in Thai and never knowingly signed by me - which apparently allows them not to pay me for time worked.

• The Region xx lawyer never obtained the contract. So he referred us to yet another government agency.
• We sent them a form complete with a signed copy of my passport.
• The next step should have been the first one: filing in Region x Labour Court!

****

That school wanted me to work on a Tourist Visa. I had everything in place and was relying to get the "WP" transferred...

They hire non NES folks like an adventurer from Cameroon. Dreadful accent, limited vocab - but hey, 15,000 Baht!

OTOH, there are all the rules and regulations for other folks. Like the TCT's license, a B-Visa, a WP etc.

****

Without wanting to pry, what made you walk out? I left when they told me I wouldn't be getting a contract and have to work on a T-Visa.

(Subsequently facing arrest and deportation?)

Money talks and some greedy person has likely embezzled your salary. Do you want that person to enjoy the fruits of what he did - or fight for all others who will encounter that person in years to come?

Edited July 22, 2013 by onlycw

[onlycw]

Can a Thai friend fill in the forms at the Regional Labour Court? They are online. This will trigger arbitration with the court assigning you a lawyer who will argue your case.

In addition, have your friend locate the regional education office and send a letter to their lawyer following a phone call.

The lawyer will contact the school...

This is quite common IMHO. By letting greedy directors keep your wages, this practice would continue ad infinitum.

[onlycw]

Here on TV, there was a serious post by an employer. He still had to pay an employee who left without notice for time worked.

Not sure about what is usually done - am not that experienced nor have I held an admin position like Scott.

There might be some counter claim by the school. But one would have to study that contract and then you haven't defended your move to leave without notice. (A friend told me horror stories of some agency owing all their teachers tens of thousands of Baht over months. Who knows what made you leave? But IMHO, based on a Thai lawyer's response to that employer's question, they still gotta pay you for time worked).

It takes two to tango. And you walking away from a job is likely to be detrimental to your financial situation as well.

You haven't got some new job line up, have you?

[carolina04]

Onlycw,

Thanks for your advice! I had no idea about the labour court. Since it's free and I have a couple of weeks before my new job starts, it won't hurt to at least try. I do remember signing some papers in Thai when going through the work permit, and it sounds like one of them could have been a generic contract, but I honestly don't think the school knew that.

I know I must sound like an awful, soulless person for just leaving, but I had to get out of there. The job sounded amazing at first, but as the school struggled more and more, they bent over backwards to cut costs and accommodate any requests of parents, which resulted in a lot of things that I wouldn't have agreed to when offered the position. One of the final straws was a ten week camp that I found out about through the schools facebook page. When I told them they couldn't just make up a camp without asking me and that I wouldn't do it, they said it was always there and that they had just 'forgotten' to tell me about it. I could go on and on. On the final day, when I asked to talk to them about all of the changes, they kind of turned it around on me and it just got really ugly and personal.

I should have done my research first too - the school had been through something like 8 foreign teachers in the first 9 months. I should've been out of there a long time ago, but it was my first real job out of the Peace Corps and I didn't really realize what was going on.

Either way this goes, I have certainly learned my lesson!

[sirchai]

Onlycw,

Thanks for your advice! I had no idea about the labour court. Since it's free and I have a couple of weeks before my new job starts, it won't hurt to at least try. I do remember signing some papers in Thai when going through the work permit, and it sounds like one of them could have been a generic contract, but I honestly don't think the school knew that.

I know I must sound like an awful, soulless person for just leaving, but I had to get out of there. The job sounded amazing at first, but as the school struggled more and more, they bent over backwards to cut costs and accommodate any requests of parents, which resulted in a lot of things that I wouldn't have agreed to when offered the position. One of the final straws was a ten week camp that I found out about through the schools facebook page. When I told them they couldn't just make up a camp without asking me and that I wouldn't do it, they said it was always there and that they had just 'forgotten' to tell me about it. I could go on and on. On the final day, when I asked to talk to them about all of the changes, they kind of turned it around on me and it just got really ugly and personal.

I should have done my research first too - the school had been through something like 8 foreign teachers in the first 9 months. I should've been out of there a long time ago, but it was my first real job out of the Peace Corps and I didn't really realize what was going on.

Either way this goes, I have certainly learned my lesson!

I do remember signing some papers in Thai when going through the work permit, and it sounds like one of them could have been a generic contract, but I honestly don't think the school knew that.

You might be better off with the Peace Corps. You just walked out, having a contract or not, didn't pay taxes and now you want money from them? Sounds ridiculous to me.

The school should have done its research as well. And as another poster had already mentioned, you'll give new teachers at this school a harder time than you had.

This is Thailand..-

Edited July 23, 2013 by sirchai

[carolina04]

I did pay taxes.

I wasn't the first teacher to walk out on them and I certainly won't be the last.

[Scott]

I am very sorry to hear about your negative experience. Employers are known to come up with some changes without consulting employees. I have experienced this and it is a big problem. Your situation sounds OTT, though. Where I work, we have had a few people refuse and then resign. The Admin will back off for a while, but it doesn't take long before they are back to their old tricks.

The best of luck to you.