Bitcoins banned in Thailand

[brit1984]

No, I was saying that it costs money (fees) to convert bitcoin into and out of fiat money.

Bitcoin will only work if there is wide spread acceptance into mainstream society.

for example. say i am thai and work in USA and need to send money home. no reason to buy bit coin that does not save me anything unless i am doing something illegal to earn my money and cant legally send it without raising flags.

most of Bitcoin's value comes from its anonymity, it is just that it serves little purpose for regular people to use.

this is one of the key obstacles that bitcoin needs to overcome... given the price volatilty and costs of converting into and out of bitcoins, making transactions in bitcoins only really makes sense for those who hold savings in bitcoins (and require zero buyer protection from any purchase) but bitcoin's price volatility makes it unsuitable as a way to hold savings - and that price volatility will only decrease once it becomes widely accepted and used but how will it become widely accepted and used (before the price volatility reduces) in the context of that issue of non-savers having to convert into and out of bitcoins

i.e. lots of the potential for bitcoin depends on stabilisation of the price of bitcoins BUT stabilisation of the price likewise depends on that potential being realised

[kawaiimomo]

No, I was saying that it costs money (fees) to convert bitcoin into and out of fiat money.

Bitcoin will only work if there is wide spread acceptance into mainstream society.

for example. say i am thai and work in USA and need to send money home. no reason to buy bit coin that does not save me anything unless i am doing something illegal to earn my money and cant legally send it without raising flags.

most of Bitcoin's value comes from its anonymity, it is just that it serves little purpose for regular people to use.

I think that is the case now. I agree with you on everything being easier as it become mainstream. For instance that could mean more exchanges being created, thus lower fees to just withdraw/deposit due to competition.

But following with your example, there's nothing stopping anyone from create a physical money transfer service. So you, being Thai and working in the US, could pay cash to that service and they would just make a transfer to your family wallet (Or it could be a similar service running locally here, so you family would just need to go to the booth and get the money). Something similar to what Arab people have been doing for so long with those international money transfer system they use that doesn't move the money around.

Just an example, although in this case you would lose the anonymity. I think the big majority of people couldn't care less about anonymity, what they care about is about banks and governments having the control.

Edited November 25, 2013 by kawaiimomo

[farang000999]

I don't see why we should expect that Bitcoin will ever have stable prices considering that there is no Central authority or pricing mechanism. The Fed can weaken and strengthen the dollar with interest rates and the government can control fiscal spending and use capital controls and use their power to make you do things that you might not like to make sure that their currency is stable.

Now, people say that the demand for Bitcoin will be built in because the supply is limited which in theory should lead to higher bitcoin prices but I do not necessarily agree with that. Look at it like a stock. A high volume stock has a much lower buy/sell spread than a penny stock. Since Bitcoin is deflationary it encourages hording which further decreases the supply. I imagine that the businesses that currently accept bitcoin are not holding onto those bitcoins and it will be hard for them to do so in the future without stable Bitcoin prices.

Your example of trading Bitcoin into cash in person is interesting but still requires wide spread use of Bitcoin. Your coworkers or friend needs to have a reason to be holding Bitcoin so that he can sell you some for dollars. How or why did he get it? And the government can discourage you from buying with people you don't know by making it illegal and setting up stings on both the buyer and seller ends in which case it may not be worth the risk to save 5%.

[kawaiimomo]

Good points, although I don't agree on some of them :-P For instance I really the governments messing with everything to give a fake sense of security. I mean, look at the economy. Dollars and Euros are stable but I don't see what's good about that if people can't get money for buying things.

There was an article yesterday in wired with interesting views on the deflationary thing and holding it http://wired.com/wiredenterprise/2013/11/bitcoin-and-deflation . Some people talk about this deflation in term of goods pricing oscillating but I don't think we will be able to see that in many decades. Most products paid with bitcoin are still calculating the price based on the real time USD/BTC value so it is really priced in fiat currency but you do the transaction in BTC, even the shady markets as silk road or black market reloaded do that (I can't see a dealer pricing a kilo of coke in BTC and exposing himself to the current value volatility).

I think most of the problems/incredulity now are related to the volatility, which I think it will kinda go away as BTC becomes more mainstream. As I said, for me the current states is good for speculating with high risks because it can go down the same it goes up.

[brit1984]

^ i agree the price volatility would decrease if it became more mainstream and savers came to represent the lion's share of those holding bitcoins rather than speculators but how can this happen BEFORE the price stabilizes?...

there is a potential equilibrium virtuous circle with stable prices and therefore trust in bitcoin, which implies stable prices, and so on... but there is no obvious path to reach such an equilibrium as prices can't stabilize until the people are saving in bitcoins, and people wont be saving in bitcoins until the price stabilizes... when the speculators finally realize this they will exit very quickly (with obvious consequences)

[Naam]

the algo yada yada rhythm&blues yakety-yak of Bitcoin encryption bla-bla can never be hacked bullfeces:

Second major Bitcoin heist this month allegedly takes over $1 million

http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/26/5147410/bitcoin-hack-allegedly-steals-over-1-million-from-bips-wallet-service

[kawaiimomo]

Oh come on Naam, they hacked an exchange server not the bitcoin encryption. These places have online wallets so the customers can deposit and withdraw btc, and that is known to be very unsecure. If you gain control of the server then you get the wallets, it is the server the one that needs to be secured and many admins don't have the knowledge.

[Morakot]

the algo yada yada rhythm&blues yakety-yak of Bitcoin encryption bla-bla can never be hacked bullfeces:

Second major Bitcoin heist this month allegedly takes over $1 million

I think the encryption claim usually refers to that it cannot be counterfeited; it's not about stealing your money. It's equally susceptible as any other electronic account.

Anyone who keeps their own bitcoins on a device that does not have an air gap needs to have their head examined.

Edited November 27, 2013 by Morakot

[Naam]

Oh come on Naam, they hacked an exchange server not the bitcoin encryption. These places have online wallets so the customers can deposit and withdraw btc, and that is known to be very unsecure. If you gain control of the server then you get the wallets, it is the server the one that needs to be secured and many admins don't have the knowledge.

does that mean the "the algo yada yada rhythm&blues yakety-yak Bitcoin encryption bla-bla" cannot be used to protect a server?

how is/are the server(s) protected which "carry" the Bitcoin encryption? by Papal litterae apostolicae, Islamic fatwas or perhaps Buddhistic merit making?

[pancakeman]

Breaking news: Women mugged; purse stolen.

OMG the dollar is going to crash; it's clearly unstable if it can be stolen so easily.

[pistachios]

Oh come on Naam, they hacked an exchange server not the bitcoin encryption. These places have online wallets so the customers can deposit and withdraw btc, and that is known to be very unsecure. If you gain control of the server then you get the wallets, it is the server the one that needs to be secured and many admins don't have the knowledge.

does that mean the "the algo yada yada rhythm&blues yakety-yak Bitcoin encryption bla-bla" cannot be used to protect a server?

how is/are the server(s) protected which "carry" the Bitcoin encryption? by Papal litterae apostolicae, Islamic fatwas or perhaps Buddhistic merit making?

No it cannot. Bitcoin also cannot cook you eggs and bacon or give you a foot massage. Seriously, try at least to get a tiny bit informed about the way bitcoin works before making derogatory comments.

You could have a two factor authentication on the most secure site of the internet, with an uncrackable password, if a thief breaks into your house, steals your cellphone and the post it on which you wrote the password, he will have access to your account anyway. Would you blame afterwards the website or the password encryption algorithm? Something like that probably happened to that exchange. They didn't have a high enough protection against break ins and their bitcoin passwords must have been accessible somehow.

By the way there are no server that carry the bitcoin encryption, therefore no need to protect it. The task is done by a network of miners which computing power far exceeds the combined power of the 30 biggest supercomputers in the world.

[hawker9000]

the algo yada yada rhythm&blues yakety-yak of Bitcoin encryption bla-bla can never be hacked bullfeces:

Second major Bitcoin heist this month allegedly takes over $1 million

http://www.theverge.com/2013/11/26/5147410/bitcoin-hack-allegedly-steals-over-1-million-from-bips-wallet-service

The issue here is with the wallet, not bitcoin. 'Guess "wallet" is a good name for it, since it can be stolen just like one, and safeguarded just like one. Incidentally, I think you can have more than one wallet, as many as you want in fact. One for every transaction if you wish.

[OxfordWill]

Meanwhile those of us who get it and got in before the arguments even began are making a killing. It is wonderful thing to be both right and profit.

[farang000999]

Have you quit your job yet?

[farang000999]

Bitcoin will probably triple by New Years but one thing to keep in mind is that there is no pricing mechanism. Mcdonalds share price is based on earnings. If a bunch of shareholders want to sell and the price goes down, it will become cheap and others will buy as long as the earnings meet expectations. With bitcoin, while you may have big gains on paper you need someone else to buy at the current price. Bitcoin's price is not based on anything besides suppy and demand and probably 95% of the holders or higher if they are honest with themselves are speculating. The function of money is to facilitate trade not to make people millionaires for holding it. It does not feel at all bubbly to you going up 10% a day? ...

Edit: In case my point was not clear, it is harder to realize gains in bitcoin as opposed to a stock because the mere act of being a seller puts downward pressure on Bitcoin because it trades solely on supply and demand as opposed to earnings expectation.

Edited November 29, 2013 by farang000999

[farang000999]

Also, assuming you believe all the hype about bitcoin being the only real crypto then why are all the minor coins rising along with Bitcoin? you can't have it both ways.

[brit1984]

probably 95% of the holders or higher if they are honest with themselves are speculating.

...5% of the current market price is nearly 1 BILLION USD... i doubt that much is being saved (as opposed to speculated) in bitcoins

[ukrules]

Also, assuming you believe all the hype about bitcoin being the only real crypto then why are all the minor coins rising along with Bitcoin? you can't have it both ways.

A good point. The alts I purchased for a few cents each only a couple of months ago are now selling for more than $2 (nearly $3) worth of Yuan on a chinese exchange.

I'm using the Yuan to buy Bitcoin and move it elsewhere.....

I only need the Bitcoin to facilitate the transfer of funds between exchanges. The actual price of Bitcoin doesn't matter.

[Berkshire]

Bitcoin will probably triple by New Years but one thing to keep in mind is that there is no pricing mechanism. Mcdonalds share price is based on earnings. If a bunch of shareholders want to sell and the price goes down, it will become cheap and others will buy as long as the earnings meet expectations. With bitcoin, while you may have big gains on paper you need someone else to buy at the current price. Bitcoin's price is not based on anything besides suppy and demand and probably 95% of the holders or higher if they are honest with themselves are speculating. The function of money is to facilitate trade not to make people millionaires for holding it. It does not feel at all bubbly to you going up 10% a day? ...

Edit: In case my point was not clear, it is harder to realize gains in bitcoin as opposed to a stock because the mere act of being a seller puts downward pressure on Bitcoin because it trades solely on supply and demand as opposed to earnings expectation.

Tend to agree....for now. It's probably more like US baseball cards than stock. One may think that one's mint vintage Babe Ruth card is worth $1,000. It may even be appraised at $1,000 by a reputable third-party. But if no one is willing to fork over $1,000, then it's really not worth $1,000.

[hawker9000]

Bitcoin will probably triple by New Years but one thing to keep in mind is that there is no pricing mechanism. Mcdonalds share price is based on earnings. If a bunch of shareholders want to sell and the price goes down, it will become cheap and others will buy as long as the earnings meet expectations. With bitcoin, while you may have big gains on paper you need someone else to buy at the current price. Bitcoin's price is not based on anything besides suppy and demand and probably 95% of the holders or higher if they are honest with themselves are speculating. The function of money is to facilitate trade not to make people millionaires for holding it. It does not feel at all bubbly to you going up 10% a day? ...

Edit: In case my point was not clear, it is harder to realize gains in bitcoin as opposed to a stock because the mere act of being a seller puts downward pressure on Bitcoin because it trades solely on supply and demand as opposed to earnings expectation.

Tend to agree....for now. It's probably more like US baseball cards than stock. One may think that one's mint vintage Babe Ruth card is worth $1,000. It may even be appraised at $1,000 by a reputable third-party. But if no one is willing to fork over $1,000, then it's really not worth $1,000.

Do you have some evidence, even anecdotal, that anyone's currently having ANY trouble, or encountering excessive fees, selling their bitcoins.

Anyone here who's done so recently wanna' "testify"?

[beb]

Bitcoin will probably triple by New Years but one thing to keep in mind is that there is no pricing mechanism. Mcdonalds share price is based on earnings. If a bunch of shareholders want to sell and the price goes down, it will become cheap and others will buy as long as the earnings meet expectations. With bitcoin, while you may have big gains on paper you need someone else to buy at the current price. Bitcoin's price is not based on anything besides suppy and demand and probably 95% of the holders or higher if they are honest with themselves are speculating. The function of money is to facilitate trade not to make people millionaires for holding it. It does not feel at all bubbly to you going up 10% a day? ...

Edit: In case my point was not clear, it is harder to realize gains in bitcoin as opposed to a stock because the mere act of being a seller puts downward pressure on Bitcoin because it trades solely on supply and demand as opposed to earnings expectation.

Tend to agree....for now. It's probably more like US baseball cards than stock. One may think that one's mint vintage Babe Ruth card is worth $1,000. It may even be appraised at $1,000 by a reputable third-party. But if no one is willing to fork over $1,000, then it's really not worth $1,000.

Do you have some evidence, even anecdotal, that anyone's currently having ANY trouble, or encountering excessive fees, selling their bitcoins.

Anyone here who's done so recently wanna' "testify"?

This guy is like a horse drawn wagon expert ridiculing the introduction of the car. it's beyond his comprehension.

[Khun Jean]

Serious question. (I don't have any bitcoins!)

If you have bitcoins and you used something like btc-e to buy and sell coins. How would that in practice go.

Say that you bought bitcoins for $800 and the moment it hit $1200 you want to get USD's again.

How much time goes by, and do you sell 'at that moment' or is the trade being 'worked on'.

How long does it take to settle, who takes the risk when the prices fluctuates?

Heard stories that it sometimes takes days, even weeks to settle a buy/sale.

[ukrules]

Serious question. (I don't have any bitcoins!)

If you have bitcoins and you used something like btc-e to buy and sell coins. How would that in practice go.

Say that you bought bitcoins for $800 and the moment it hit $1200 you want to get USD's again.

How much time goes by, and do you sell 'at that moment' or is the trade being 'worked on'.

How long does it take to settle, who takes the risk when the prices fluctuates?

Heard stories that it sometimes takes days, even weeks to settle a buy/sale.

It's instant. The USD gets credited to your account immediately and without any kind of delay.

You can then buy another listed 'coin', wait for the price to fall and rebuy or make a withdrawal to your bank account via a SWIFT transaction.

I had them wire me $10k earlier in the year and it arrived in my Kasikorn account about 3 working days later.

EDIT : Of course you can only sell if there are orders at your sell price othewise it will stay on the order book until the correct price is reached for the amount of coins you're selling

Edited December 1, 2013 by ukrules

[NeverSure]

As someone said, I would rather have bitcoins than some government fiat money that is created out of thin air.

Bitcoins are much better because they are created out of thick air?

[brit1984]

As someone said, I would rather have bitcoins than some government fiat money that is created out of thin air.

Bitcoins are much better because they are created out of thick air?

bitcoins are better because some strangers on the internet who already bought some said so

[Berkshire]

Bitcoin will probably triple by New Years but one thing to keep in mind is that there is no pricing mechanism. Mcdonalds share price is based on earnings. If a bunch of shareholders want to sell and the price goes down, it will become cheap and others will buy as long as the earnings meet expectations. With bitcoin, while you may have big gains on paper you need someone else to buy at the current price. Bitcoin's price is not based on anything besides suppy and demand and probably 95% of the holders or higher if they are honest with themselves are speculating. The function of money is to facilitate trade not to make people millionaires for holding it. It does not feel at all bubbly to you going up 10% a day? ...

Edit: In case my point was not clear, it is harder to realize gains in bitcoin as opposed to a stock because the mere act of being a seller puts downward pressure on Bitcoin because it trades solely on supply and demand as opposed to earnings expectation.

Tend to agree....for now. It's probably more like US baseball cards than stock. One may think that one's mint vintage Babe Ruth card is worth $1,000. It may even be appraised at $1,000 by a reputable third-party. But if no one is willing to fork over $1,000, then it's really not worth $1,000.

Do you have some evidence, even anecdotal, that anyone's currently having ANY trouble, or encountering excessive fees, selling their bitcoins.

Anyone here who's done so recently wanna' "testify"?

This guy is like a horse drawn wagon expert ridiculing the introduction of the car. it's beyond his comprehension.

I'll admit that I'm no expert on bitcoins. But heck, even the US government can't figure out what to make of bitcoins. Is it a currency? Commodity? Security? So you tell me....what is it?

[beb]

I'll admit that I'm no expert on bitcoins. But heck, even the US government can't figure out what to make of bitcoins. Is it a currency? Commodity? Security? So you tell me....what is it?

The US government is trying to figure out best, next steps as they move forward. All the important players that sat in front of the congressional committee endorsed btc as a legitimate new technology. If you want to know what it is, start here

Then try searching this thread and googling. You might also want to observe how various people are changing their minds as they become more familiar with it: http://www.businessinsider.com/im-changing-my-mind-about-bitcoin-2013-12

It took me several months after first hearing about bitcoin to finally buy one because I did not understand how it worked. I'm glad I finally got it because it really is groundbreaking.

[Berkshire]

The US government is trying to figure out best, next steps as they move forward. All the important players that sat in front of the congressional committee endorsed btc as a legitimate new technology. If you want to know what it is, start here

Then try searching this thread and googling. You might also want to observe how various people are changing their minds as they become more familiar with it: http://www.businessinsider.com/im-changing-my-mind-about-bitcoin-2013-12

It took me several months after first hearing about bitcoin to finally buy one because I did not understand how it worked. I'm glad I finally got it because it really is groundbreaking.

Thanks. I have Googled and read some articles about it, but it's still a bit fuzzy to me. There's actually tons of details that I'm unclear about, but I don't want to clog up this thread with silly questions. Anyways, the fact that I'm even participating in this thread is some indication that I'm interested. But I'm just one of those slow adopters.

[hawker9000]

I wouldn't be surprised in the least to learn that most readers of this thread, as well as those who've researched bitcoin on the 'net to try & figure out how it works, probably understand considerably more about bitcoin than they do the US monetary system and what's actually behind the dollars in their pockets. Note I said "understand", not THINK they understand...

[Khun Jean]

I am also convinced 99% of the people do not understand how fiat currencies like US$, Euros etc work, because if they did there would be a revolution tomorrow.

It is all about trust and how much value is given to it.

It is also about complete control, that is why banks love it.

Bitcoin is also about trust and how much value is given to it. There is only no complete control.

The complete control can be used to maintain value, or water it down. With no control it can jump from valuable to nothing within hours. Bitcoin needs to be in the hands of tens of millions of people in many countries before it will stop fluctuating wildly.

The Chinese (Asians) are born gamblers and they have had booming economy for many years. Also the trust in US$, Euros etc is going down for a while. If you sit on a lot of cash, a few percent in bitcoin does not hurt.

You can loose x1, you can win x10.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Khun Jean