Thailand and the Vietnam War

[Issangeorge]

During the Vietnam War even, the US Navy was in Isaan. A few years ago while meeting with our weekly group of farangs in Kuchinarai Kalasin, I met an ex Seabee, who was showing his two grown children the former spill wall he and his Seabee group had built during the Vietnam War. The communist insurgency in the area was becoming a threat and the US Government felt that perhaps if some infrastructure were built it would be a good thing. Plus (just my thought) it would give the US a good base for some observation. Google Kuchinarai Seabees and there is lots of information. Bob Bell was the man's name and he has put a lot of stuff on the net.

[SinglePot]

During the Vietnam War even, the US Navy was in Isaan. A few years ago while meeting with our weekly group of farangs in Kuchinarai Kalasin, I met an ex Seabee, who was showing his two grown children the former spill wall he and his Seabee group had built during the Vietnam War. The communist insurgency in the area was becoming a threat and the US Government felt that perhaps if some infrastructure were built it would be a good thing. Plus (just my thought) it would give the US a good base for some observation. Google Kuchinarai Seabees and there is lots of information. Bob Bell was the man's name and he has put a lot of stuff on the net.

Found this. Thanks.

http://www.mcb11.com/1960%20Era%20files/bell_thailand_article.pdf

[Thanyaburi Mac]

U.S. Coast Guard, too. They ran the LORAN station at Udorn.

Mac

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Nam Phong Air Base was also where the initial flights of Lao-Hmong were flown to from Long Tieng, 12-14 May 1975. Later flights landed at Udorn and the now refugees either flown to Nam Phong or trucked down. Hmong arrivals at Nong Khai were trucked to Nam Phong until the population hit about 11,000, then later arrivals were held at Nong Khai.

Mac

[dennisgb45]

I was stationed at Korat 1965, Tahkli 1965-66. I came over here on a 90 day TDY, got extended for another 90 days.Then was changed to PCS, served a year total. I was <deleted> Air Force F-105s.

I can tell you that the girls were just as pretty then as they are now. They were the grandmothers of the current generation.

Everyday I would thank my lucky stars that I was in Thailand rather than Vietnam. Salute to the boots on the ground guys...you have my utmost respect. I was 19 years old. My memory of Patpong was a bar called the Dew Drop Inn or Do Drop Inn. But all in all, the gals in Korat & Tahkli were more fun.

As I left, I swore I would return some day. Finally in 2005 I came back here for a vacation. Moved here in 2008.

[dennisgb45]

"We should remember that US operations were only allowed in Thailand on the basis that returning planes carried no live munitions. It is for this reason that Laos and in particular, the Plain of Jars, is the most heavily bombed areas on the planet as returning US planes offloaded their bombs before landing."

I didn't know that.

Thanks chiang mai.

Were planes leaving Thailand able to carry live munitions? I presume not. I'm struggling with the logistics.

Singlepot

I was at Korat and Tahkli 1965/66. Returning planes (F105) would drop any remaining bombs on a bomb range somewhere near the base in Korat. I do not know exactly where it was. But they were close enough to rattle buildings and make drinks bounce off of tables. This was almost a daily occurrence. Not disputing the above paragraph about returning planes carrying munitions. I had never heard of that before, but probably true. Rules were broken , ignored and modified on a constant basis. I had pilots tell me that if the designated target could not be hit, that they could not just find a target of opportunity. Again...rules change, ignored modified. I think the rule may have been "Can not land with live munitions" for safety reasons.

Planes left Thailand constantly loaded to the hilt with munitions...going downtown.

[chiang mai]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/08/in_pictures_remnants_of_war/html/1.stm

[SinglePot]

"We should remember that US operations were only allowed in Thailand on the basis that returning planes carried no live munitions. It is for this reason that Laos and in particular, the Plain of Jars, is the most heavily bombed areas on the planet as returning US planes offloaded their bombs before landing."

I didn't know that.

Thanks chiang mai.

Were planes leaving Thailand able to carry live munitions? I presume not. I'm struggling with the logistics.

Singlepot

I was at Korat and Tahkli 1965/66. Returning planes (F105) would drop any remaining bombs on a bomb range somewhere near the base in Korat. I do not know exactly where it was. But they were close enough to rattle buildings and make drinks bounce off of tables. This was almost a daily occurrence. Not disputing the above paragraph about returning planes carrying munitions. I had never heard of that before, but probably true. Rules were broken , ignored and modified on a constant basis. I had pilots tell me that if the designated target could not be hit, that they could not just find a target of opportunity. Again...rules change, ignored modified. I think the rule may have been "Can not land with live munitions" for safety reasons.

Planes left Thailand constantly loaded to the hilt with munitions...going downtown.

Thanks Dennis.

"Can not land with live munitions" for safety reasons is the drift I'm getting from this and other posts.

[Midfield General]

I heard a story that when Bob Hope used to visit ''Nam'' to entertain the troops he would always insist on spending time in Bangkok on the way back where he was apparently a very naughty boy. A top quality swordsman by all accounts.

[Midfield General]

"We should remember that US operations were only allowed in Thailand on the basis that returning planes carried no live munitions. It is for this reason that Laos and in particular, the Plain of Jars, is the most heavily bombed areas on the planet as returning US planes offloaded their bombs before landing."

I didn't know that.

Thanks chiang mai.

Were planes leaving Thailand able to carry live munitions? I presume not. I'm struggling with the logistics.

Singlepot

I was at Korat and Tahkli 1965/66. Returning planes (F105) would drop any remaining bombs on a bomb range somewhere near the base in Korat. I do not know exactly where it was. But they were close enough to rattle buildings and make drinks bounce off of tables. This was almost a daily occurrence. Not disputing the above paragraph about returning planes carrying munitions. I had never heard of that before, but probably true. Rules were broken , ignored and modified on a constant basis. I had pilots tell me that if the designated target could not be hit, that they could not just find a target of opportunity. Again...rules change, ignored modified. I think the rule may have been "Can not land with live munitions" for safety reasons.

Planes left Thailand constantly loaded to the hilt with munitions...going downtown.

That is true about unused bombs getting dropped on Laos. More ordinance was dropped on Laos during that period than on Germany during whole of the 2nd World War.

[chiang mai]

Related trivia: Even in the mid 90's it was still possible to walk around parts of the Central Highlands in Vietnam and find area's that were littered with shell casings, locals would scoop them up and sell them for their scrap or souvenier value. One very enterprising villager became quite wealthy when, in his search for scrap metal, he found the location of a JCB that had been hastily buried by the Army Corp of Engineers, prior to their departure from the country. He was one of the lucky ones however, most locals who serach for such things end up with limbs blown off as a result, even today!

[Naam]

"We should remember that US operations were only allowed in Thailand on the basis that returning planes carried no live munitions. It is for this reason that Laos and in particular, the Plain of Jars, is the most heavily bombed areas on the planet as returning US planes offloaded their bombs before landing."

I didn't know that.

Thanks chiang mai.

Were planes leaving Thailand able to carry live munitions? I presume not. I'm struggling with the logistics.

there's no logistic to struggle if you don't believe the blatant lies (alternatively ridiculous drivel) spread about bombing Laos by offloading ordinance not used. all what you have to do is look at the geographical location of the "Ho-Chi-Minh path" (running within Laos and Cambodia) which was bombed heavily to interrupt the Viet Cong's supply routes from north to south.

moreover, ask yourself the question where the ordinance was loaded which the B-52s dropped on Viet Nam and Laos after taking off in Thailand.

perhaps in midair or beamed up by Scotty?

[Naam]

That is true about unused bombs getting dropped on Laos. More ordinance was dropped on Laos during that period than on Germany during whole of the 2nd World War.

not true as far as "unused" is concerned!

It was exactly 40 years ago, on March 29, 1973, that Operation Barrel Roll—the secret US bombing of Laos during the Vietnam War—ended after nine years, more than a half a million bombing runs, and more than two million tons of ordnance dropped.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/blogs/war-and-peace/2013/03/29/still-deadly-legacy-secret-bombing-laos-lingers/FEgXKOcZ7PtelWjCmXfBEO/blog.html

[chiang mai]

That's a partially correct answer Dr Naam and it does account for much of the bombing in Laos in the central region, but it does not account for the extensive bomb damage to the Plain of Jars, the most heavily bombed region of all. Much of the bombing to the P of J resulted from pilots dumping their bomb loads following failed or aborted bombing runs to Hanoi in the North.

As for where the ordanance was loaded for the bombing runs, it's already been agreed that this was done at US basis in the NE of Thailand, I see no dispute on that fact.

The following link provides good detail of what happened, take a look at the maps adjacent to Operation Barrel Roll and read the associated explanations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laotian_Civil_War

[simple1]

That's a partially correct answer Dr Naam and it does account for much of the bombing in Laos in the central region, but it does not account for the extensive bomb damage to the Plain of Jars, the most heavily bombed region of all. Much of the bombing to the P of J resulted from pilots dumping their bomb loads following failed or aborted bombing runs to Hanoi in the North.

As for where the ordanance was loaded for the bombing runs, it's already been agreed that this was done at US basis in the NE of Thailand, I see no dispute on that fact.

The following link provides good detail of what happened, take a look at the maps adjacent to Operation Barrel Roll and read the associated explanations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laotian_Civil_War

Your POV regards the bombing in the general area of the Plain of Jars is contradicted by information that it was was the second most-targeted area in Laos, with more than 63,000 sorties.

[Naam]

That's a partially correct answer Dr Naam and it does account for much of the bombing in Laos in the central region, but it does not account for the extensive bomb damage to the Plain of Jars, the most heavily bombed region of all. Much of the bombing to the P of J resulted from pilots dumping their bomb loads following failed or aborted bombing runs to Hanoi in the North.

As for where the ordanance was loaded for the bombing runs, it's already been agreed that this was done at US basis in the NE of Thailand, I see no dispute on that fact.

The following link provides good detail of what happened, take a look at the maps adjacent to Operation Barrel Roll and read the associated explanations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laotian_Civil_War

please provide a link that any area in Laos was bombed because "unused ordinance" could not be brought back to Thailand.

[SinglePot]

Quick question.

What was the strategic importance of Plain of Jars if any?

Connected to HCM trail?

[IMA_FARANG]

"We should remember that US operations were only allowed in Thailand on the basis that returning planes carried no live munitions. It is for this reason that Laos and in particular, the Plain of Jars, is the most heavily bombed areas on the planet as returning US planes offloaded their bombs before landing."

I didn't know that.

Thanks chiang mai.

Were planes leaving Thailand able to carry live munitions? I presume not. I'm struggling with the logistics.

Singlepot

I was at Korat and Tahkli 1965/66. Returning planes (F105) would drop any remaining bombs on a bomb range somewhere near the base in Korat. I do not know exactly where it was. But they were close enough to rattle buildings and make drinks bounce off of tables. This was almost a daily occurrence. Not disputing the above paragraph about returning planes carrying munitions. I had never heard of that before, but probably true. Rules were broken , ignored and modified on a constant basis. I had pilots tell me that if the designated target could not be hit, that they could not just find a target of opportunity. Again...rules change, ignored modified. I think the rule may have been "Can not land with live munitions" for safety reasons.

Planes left Thailand constantly loaded to the hilt with munitions...going downtown.

That is true about unused bombs getting dropped on Laos. More ordinance was dropped on Laos during that period than on Germany during whole of the 2nd World War.

----------------------

A story told to make it "politically correct" later in the U.S.

Laos was. in fact, a major part of the Ho Chi Minh trail and much of the munitions used there were not "dropped by accident" or "jettisoned".

Americans may have been "told" that but the fact is that in certain areas of Laos there was in fact a serious war on and the U.S. was actively bombing transportation routes the NVA were using to bring material to South Vietnam.

Not everywhere in Laos of course, but in certain areas it was "expended" on presumed targets.

[chiang mai]

I have read and heard and read many times of the no returns policy from bombing raids but it will take me a little while to research it and find proof, if indeed I can find any. I do not dismiss the entirely the idea that the story is/was only propoganda but I'd like to satisfy myself of that first.

EDIT: meanwhile, anectdotal evidence,

VIENTIANE - The mountainous northern province of Phongsaly in Laos is better known for its ancient tea bushes and colorful ethnic melange than for its unexploded ordnance (UXO). But as economic progress and infrastructure development arrive in the country's somnolent outer regions, the legacy of what locals refer to as the American War is being unearthed in disastrous fashion.

United States Department of Defense maps detailing US bombing drops during its "secret war" in Laos show a dense acne strip of blue and red spots across the bottom of the remote Phongsaly province, following an east-west road that extends into northern Vietnam. The red dots on the map represent cluster bombs; the blue ones general purpose bombs. One particular red dot

indicated 20,400 cluster bombs were dropped in an area south of the road.

Tucker David flew with some of those bombing runs. "Some of the guys would get bored and just dump and run," he said during a recent visit to Vientiane. "You can't land a plane with ordnance on board, so it has to go somewhere. If they couldn't find a target they would just let 'em go, preferably in places with no people."

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/MD28Ae01.html

[simple1]

Quick question.

What was the strategic importance of Plain of Jars if any?

Connected to HCM trail?

From reading the Plain of Jars was strategically important from a military operations perspective as there were two roads leading into the area from North Vietnam into Laos and of course the supply route via the Ho Chi Minh trail. Also a possible base of operations to launch an attack on Luang Prabang. There was a lot of fighting between the NVA and Pathet Lao forces forces against the Laotian army and US supported Hmong and Thai fighters.

Any alternative opinions?

[chiang mai]

That's a partially correct answer Dr Naam and it does account for much of the bombing in Laos in the central region, but it does not account for the extensive bomb damage to the Plain of Jars, the most heavily bombed region of all. Much of the bombing to the P of J resulted from pilots dumping their bomb loads following failed or aborted bombing runs to Hanoi in the North.

As for where the ordanance was loaded for the bombing runs, it's already been agreed that this was done at US basis in the NE of Thailand, I see no dispute on that fact.

The following link provides good detail of what happened, take a look at the maps adjacent to Operation Barrel Roll and read the associated explanations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laotian_Civil_War

Your POV regards the bombing in the general area of the Plain of Jars is contradicted by information that it was was the second most-targeted area in Laos, with more than 63,000 sorties.

True, but also on the flight path to/from Hanoi.

[Ajaan]

I had a great conversation (in Lao) with a local Thai guy in Ubon back in 2005 about his memories of the Vietnam War years there...

He told me that back in the late 60s/early 70s, Ubon was surrounded on the perimeter with GI bars...but they were strictly segregated, bars for black GIs and bars for white GIs (both types serviced by local girls, 'natch)...he said the main job of the MPs was keeping the whites and blacks from killing each other...he also said that in the high-rise hotel in downtown Ubon that's still in service (I can't remember the name, I stayed there once), that if a group of white GIs was in the elevator, a black guy would wait for the next car to get in, and vice-versa if a white found a car full of blacks...

This guy (probably in his early 60s when I talked to him) also told me that in the early-mid 70s, the districts (amphoe) all around Ubon provincial capital were completely controlled by the Thai communists...one never went outside of the capital unless absolutely necessary, especially after dark...the Thai government had no control outside of the capital to the Lao border...which rings true, the Thai government didn't really try to control Isan at all until the late 1960s, when the communists started making serious headway there...

[chiang mai]

Another anecdotal reference:

"US pilots returning to base in Thailand from raids in Vietnam also used Laos as a bomb dumping ground – having been ordered to return with no bombs on board".

http://www.bombharvest.com/background.html

[simple1]

Another anecdotal reference:

"US pilots returning to base in Thailand from raids in Vietnam also used Laos as a bomb dumping ground – having been ordered to return with no bombs on board".

http://www.bombharvest.com/background.html

A quote from the URL:

US pilots returning to base in Thailand from raids in Vietnam also used Laos as a bomb dumping ground – having been ordered to return with no bombs on board. As stated by an ex-US pilot: “Every day you flew a certain number of (bombing) missions, and you flew those missions regardless of whether there were any targets available or not…so what you’re doing is simply decimating any area with human beings in it”.

[chiang mai]

Not sure I understand the purpose of the extended quote, can you explain the logic?

[dennisgb45]

I had a great conversation (in Lao) with a local Thai guy in Ubon back in 2005 about his memories of the Vietnam War years there...

He told me that back in the late 60s/early 70s, Ubon was surrounded on the perimeter with GI bars...but they were strictly segregated, bars for black GIs and bars for white GIs (both types serviced by local girls, 'natch)...he said the main job of the MPs was keeping the whites and blacks from killing each other...he also said that in the high-rise hotel in downtown Ubon that's still in service (I can't remember the name, I stayed there once), that if a group of white GIs was in the elevator, a black guy would wait for the next car to get in, and vice-versa if a white found a car full of blacks...

This guy (probably in his early 60s when I talked to him) also told me that in the early-mid 70s, the districts (amphoe) all around Ubon provincial capital were completely controlled by the Thai communists...one never went outside of the capital unless absolutely necessary, especially after dark...the Thai government had no control outside of the capital to the Lao border...which rings true, the Thai government didn't really try to control Isan at all until the late 1960s, when the communists started making serious headway there...

When I was in Korat & Tahkli 1965/66 the bars were segregated because the blacks wanted to be separate from the whites, not the other way around. Blacks could always come into the white bars. But whites were not welcome in the black bars. The whites and blacks liked totally different kinds of music, so we didn't want to mix partly because of that. I saw very few fights between whites and blacks. On duty everyone got along. This isn't what I heard from somebody else or read in a book, internet or magazine. This is how I experienced it. Other may have seen it differently.

[chiang mai]

That's a partially correct answer Dr Naam and it does account for much of the bombing in Laos in the central region, but it does not account for the extensive bomb damage to the Plain of Jars, the most heavily bombed region of all. Much of the bombing to the P of J resulted from pilots dumping their bomb loads following failed or aborted bombing runs to Hanoi in the North.

As for where the ordanance was loaded for the bombing runs, it's already been agreed that this was done at US basis in the NE of Thailand, I see no dispute on that fact.

The following link provides good detail of what happened, take a look at the maps adjacent to Operation Barrel Roll and read the associated explanations:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laotian_Civil_War

please provide a link that any area in Laos was bombed because "unused ordinance" could not be brought back to Thailand.

My posts 265 and 269 provide anecdotal evidence from pilots that they were not allowed to land with munitions onboard in Thailand, Robbins in his book "Air Amercia" also covers this point and agrees that was the case.

Now whether this was a requirement of the Thai governement, offical or unoffical US policy or even as was suggested earlier, to some extent, propoganda, I have no idea and I can't find much eveidence to suggest which it might be. It seems clear however that in practice US planes did offload their unused munitions over Laos and in particular over the Plain of Jars on the return leg of bombing runs to North Vietnam.

[Issangeorge]

My father was a bomber pilot in WWII, he told a story of one day he landed and as was SOP he opened the bomb bay doors at his parking spot. He said he saw all the ground crew scatter as fast as they could. It turned out that a bomb had not dropped and when he opened the doors, it dropped. Fortunately it did not have enough room for the nose triger to hit the ground, or I wouldn't be writting this.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 6 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[simple1]

Not sure I understand the purpose of the extended quote, can you explain the logic?

Sure, I'll try to explain...

Could be wrong, seems to outline indifference to civilian casualties on the ground. However I have recently been watching a documentary on True TV of the US military medics in Afghanistan who show a great deal of compassion to the civilian wounded, especially the children, during helicopter medivac operations

[SinglePot]

My father was a bomber pilot in WWII, he told a story of one day he landed and as was SOP he opened the bomb bay doors at his parking spot. He said he saw all the ground crew scatter as fast as they could. It turned out that a bomb had not dropped and when he opened the doors, it dropped. Fortunately it did not have enough room for the nose triger to hit the ground, or I wouldn't be writting this.

Sent from my i-mobile IQ 6 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Seems like common sense not to land with explosives on board. Slight error, easily done, and the whole base could be destroyed.

'Hoist by your own petard' comes to mind.'