Staff caught stealing, what is the law regarding the wages? Also law about unpaid trial

[FDog]

And you wonder why you have a high staff turnover?

What is the name of your hotel?

[harrry]

And you wonder why you have a high staff turnover?

What is the name of your hotel?

Most hotel or restaurant owners try to slip in the name of their establisment and get a free add. The OP would not dare do this he may get business for one stay from a member who does not know him if he doesn't.

[BrianCR]

LOUSE 1953 said "You don't get it,working and thieving are two seperate issues."

I don't get it? I have already explained that in my posting, maybe it's you who doesn't get what the poster is seeking - real practical experience based on Thai law?

[lemoncake]

I just noticed the unpaid trial bit - this is not legal if employing but you could offer an unpaid internship for training reasons with the possibility of a full time position after completing the internship. The biggest problem here is that because of the unpaid bit you might encourage the person to steal with his/her view that he or she has to live for that week! I do have every sympathy for you as both you and I know that the hardest thing about running a business here in Thailand is staff behaviour!

Thanks for that Brian, great info

In regards to internship, from my understanding it actually works little different.

What i understood is the training is up to 7 days and it is ONLY unpaid if staff are dismissed in that period, if not, they are fully paid for those days.

Maid explained that when she worked for Montien Hotel, first week was free, like a trial and if people passed, they were paid for that week, but if dismissed for whatever reason, then no pay.

I have noticed the decline in staff performance and attitudes funny enough since the introduction of new minimum wage, did you experience the same?

All the thieves also appeared since then,i think i have a pretty good system to catch people out and in all cases they were caught in the first few days of work.

Thanks again for the advice

[lemoncake]

Yes, theft is pandemic here. If it's not nailed down, it will go walkabout - and it's not just the rank and file workers that are guilty of this - often the worst culprits are managers. In particular I have found the level of corruption and dishonesty within the hotel sector (from my experience) to be entrenched - skimming, stealing, skiving seem to be a qualification. So you really need to get a grip of how you manage these staff and make them accountable.

Get a copy in English of The Labour Protection Act 1998

The OP needs to really look at the way he is managing his staff, and get a very detailed Company Rules and Regulations handbook printed - he says his is two pages, well from experience ours is around 72 pages. Your staff are your gretest asset, and can also be your most problematic - get detailed and clear contracts in place, make sure your Rules and Regulation of Work are detailed and clear , you can get Labour office to check (again though you need to make sure that you have a good relationship with them). Make sure your security is tightened up - bag checks, and only certain exits for staff when they leave, cameras if you can in specific areas.

With regards to with-holding monies , you really need to check the terms and conditions that you have employed the staff under - and if you have conditions whereby loss of property / theft etc means that the person is responsible for reimbursement. Sometimes, you have to be tough otherwise staff will think they can get away with it. All in all seems like it's a problem you've had before, so look at ways of preventing it / reducing it.

As i mentioned earlier i have a 2 page very detailed company rules and regulations which must be signed prior to accepting the job, however according to Labor Department and lawyer, this rules and regulations are meaningless, should the matter go to Labor Court.

Labor Law, also does not seem to have a clause in regards to theft in the first few days of employment,

I know matters are different should be it a perm employee ie after 120 days of probation, but this is the case of 4 days of employment and hence the confusion and different answers.

In my rules and regulations it states if caught stealing, will be dismissed and loss of salary for that month plus legal action, but what i am trying to find is a reference to the actual law in my particular case of only been employed 4 days.

pay the 4 days, file a report and get rid of the staff. What a drama

Staff was dismissed on the spot, i am not concerned about that case, but wanting to know for the future

[FritsSikkink]

Minimum wage is rigidly enforced by the labour department.

You must pay it for every day an employee works, no matter what reason you have not to pay it.

Theoretically you could deduct the value of any item you could prove they 'stole and kept' from their wages.

As an aside.

You want to keep a Thai person's wages for 4 days they worked, what's wrong with you?

This has nothing to do with minimum wage

Please read the post again.

I also did not ask about theoretical question but need a definite.

So all of the above that you wrote, is it according to you? or an actual law addressing the actual matter of theft?

On a side note: What problem do you have with not paying a Thai who was caught stealing? would it be different if they were African or English?

Here is the law

http://www.mol.go.th/sites/default/files/images/jpg/01.pdf

[cornishcarlos]

Not sure if most people are bored with your thread now, or just missed this classic line of yours ?

"Or the fact that hotel already advertised on Thai Visa and no longer wants this kind of guests?"

Ha ha ha.... I have been laughing since I opened your original post..

So you don't want Thai Visa members as customers but you want their advice on something that you could have found out from the maid

You are a diamond...

Edited August 7, 2013 by cornishcarlos

[BrianCR]

Lemoncake wrote:

Thanks for that Brian, great info smile.png

In regards to internship, from my understanding it actually works little different.

What i understood is the training is up to 7 days and it is ONLY unpaid if staff are dismissed in that period, if not, they are fully paid for those days.

Maid explained that when she worked for Montien Hotel, first week was free, like a trial and if people passed, they were paid for that week, but if dismissed for whatever reason, then no pay.

I have noticed the decline in staff performance and attitudes funny enough since the introduction of new minimum wage, did you experience the same?

All the thieves also appeared since then,i think i have a pretty good system to catch people out and in all cases they were caught in the first few days of work.

Thanks again for the advicewai.gif

Actually you are correct, that is how it usually works in practice - mainly to show the new employee that he/she did a good job and is welcome to the business - however labour law says that in the case of an internship based on training that (with agreement from both parties) the business does not need to pay. A good example are University students who do a short work release (internship), hotels usually provide board and food but not pay cash. My former Company did the same thing with rented accommodation and food but no payment. Bearing in mind that we were assisting the student and the University and after they had finished with us the would return to complete their course at the college. They could apply with us after they graduated but that's another matter!

[BrianCR]

I'm also surprised at the number of useless postings by some posters who obviously have no experience of business here in Thailand and (I suspect) anywhere else for that matter one good example, the poster who informed me that theft and salary are not the same thing - after I went to lengths in TWO posts to explain that! I think it's just an excuse for rounding up more postings!

I would also like to add that for 33 I have lived here in Thailand and for many of those years was MD for a large International Company controlling both Thailand and Singapore. I have received training in both Thai culture and labour law. After retiring I stayed on here in Thailand and opened a small business (which I still operate) and in addition have lectured at many well known universities and colleges mainly in business studies. I have now retired from the teaching section and just run my business in what I hope is a professional manner! So, when a poster informs me that theft and salary are not the same thing I wonder which banana boat they arrived on! Have a good day.

Edited August 7, 2013 by BrianCR

[SeaVisionBurma]

A number of off-topic posts, flames, and other posts with petty bickering have been removed.

If this thread is to remain open, then please kindly post only on-topic and relevant information.

Any further off topic posts or flames will be removed and may result in a warning - and this includes all posters including the OP.

[Tomtomtom69]

Thanks for clarifying. In my last case, it is caught on CCTV, admitting or denying makes no difference as there is hard evidence of making a sale and putting money into the pocket..

In my case employee only worked for 4 days so dismissal is not an issue, its only the matter of pay for 4 days.

The amount is dismal, but its the matter of principal paying someone who is a thief.

The amount is irrelevant as stealing is stealing. Always remember the labour department is heavily weighed on the side of the employee and at local labour department level it is generally safe to say that the officer dealing with it will interpret the law to suite the occasion and the ex employee. What they are looking for is a quick agreement without going to court therefore, it is always better to have as much evidence as possible to back up your claim.

I have personally defended my company perhaps 5/6 times at a labour court and won each time (I get a kick out of doing it). Judges are generally fair but make silly statements quite regularly.I quote the following case as an example;

One employee who had only worked for us about six months decided to quit, formally gave his one month notice and was due to be paid his salary. However my company had a ruling that "at the MD's decision, employee's would be paid a monthly bonus of not more than 20% with this bonus not applying to the first or last month of employment". As this employee had only worked 6 months and we had spent a large amount of money and time on training him (in video editing) I decided that the 20% bonus would not be paid.

He went to the labour department and I (with a translator) attended. I told the officer (who tried his hardest to get us to pay) that I would not and will happily go to court. About a month later we all attended court and the employee gave his version to the 3 judges who were hearing the case. After his evidence it was my turn so i asked the court if a legally signed agreement is accepted in Thailand, they said yes and so I produced the employees contact of employment and my translator read them the rule then, passed the contract to them for examination.

The leading judge asked the employee to leave the court and then said to me that the contract was indeed legal but, as the amount of money was so small he thought that we should have paid it. I replied that I agreed that it was a fairly small amount and then invited him to multiply it by 500 (the number of employees we had) offering him the suggestion that after doing that it didn't seem to be so small!

He recalled the employee into court and dismissed the case! The moral? They will constantly try until the end to get you to pay!

Interesting case but in your case an employee merely left the company after working for a few months, which should be handled quite differently from a thief as in the OP's case. I can't see that guy going to a court over 4 days wages especially if he stole something. It just doesn't sound plausible. The guy should just go quietly and be happy that he doesn't end up in jail over the theft.

Another relatively similar, though slightly different case of an incident I remember (albeit in Australia): some years back, about 10 years ago now, a leaflet distributor instead of distributing all the leaflets correctly placed into resident's mailboxes ended up throwing them on people's lawns. Residents started complaining to the council and then the company that employed said contractor was fined by the council. The contractor (employee) got fired and ended up receiving only the wages owed to him for another job prior to this incident, though it took 6 months for those wages to be received. The employee accepted being fired and certainly wouldn't have tried to be compensated for a job he didn't do properly. While no theft took place, the job was not carried out properly and the company received a fine 3 times that of the wages that would have been paid. Do you think the employee could have sued for unfair dismissal in this case? Hardly...and this is in Australia, a country with a much better rule of law than Thailand.

I think the employee would probably be owed the first 3 or 4 days wages minus the value of the item stolen and then be fired. Pretty clear cut case to me. Going to court etc. over 4 days wages as a thief? Hahaha never going to happen and completely ridiculous.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Tomtomtom69

[Estrada]

Yes, theft is pandemic here. If it's not nailed down, it will go walkabout - and it's not just the rank and file workers that are guilty of this - often the worst culprits are managers. In particular I have found the level of corruption and dishonesty within the hotel sector (from my experience) to be entrenched - skimming, stealing, skiving seem to be a qualification. So you really need to get a grip of how you manage these staff and make them accountable.

Get a copy in English of The Labour Protection Act 1998

The OP needs to really look at the way he is managing his staff, and get a very detailed Company Rules and Regulations handbook printed - he says his is two pages, well from experience ours is around 72 pages. Your staff are your gretest asset, and can also be your most problematic - get detailed and clear contracts in place, make sure your Rules and Regulation of Work are detailed and clear , you can get Labour office to check (again though you need to make sure that you have a good relationship with them). Make sure your security is tightened up - bag checks, and only certain exits for staff when they leave, cameras if you can in specific areas.

With regards to with-holding monies , you really need to check the terms and conditions that you have employed the staff under - and if you have conditions whereby loss of property / theft etc means that the person is responsible for reimbursement. Sometimes, you have to be tough otherwise staff will think they can get away with it. All in all seems like it's a problem you've had before, so look at ways of preventing it / reducing it.

As i mentioned earlier i have a 2 page very detailed company rules and regulations which must be signed prior to accepting the job, however according to Labor Department and lawyer, this rules and regulations are meaningless, should the matter go to Labor Court.

Labor Law, also does not seem to have a clause in regards to theft in the first few days of employment,

I know matters are different should be it a perm employee ie after 120 days of probation, but this is the case of 4 days of employment and hence the confusion and different answers.

In my rules and regulations it states if caught stealing, will be dismissed and loss of salary for that month plus legal action, but what i am trying to find is a reference to the actual law in my particular case of only been employed 4 days.

I worked here for an International Company who applied their standard American Employment Contract Rules and Regulations. After 2 years, my employment was terminated and they said I was not entitled to severance pay as we were on fixed term contracts. This was the same for all Ex-Pats and Thais even those who had worked here 6 years. I downloaded a copy of the Thai Labour Law and found that Thai Law requires them to pay 3 months and I went to the Labour Department who confirmed this. In the end they had to pay me 3 months severance pay. Most of the Ex-Pats got up to 8 months despite their signed contract after they took the company to the labour court.

Please note that, contrary to what you think, Thai Law takes precedence over anything that you write into a Contract of Employment even if signed between both parties. You cannot legally deduct anything from salaries except what is lawful, such as income tax and social security.

The Thai Labour Protection Act can be found here: http://www.labour.go.th

As you will see if you read it properly, you can only deduct the stolen money from a security deposit obtained in advance. Furthermore, you can only deduct a maximum of 20% for "damage to the Employer's business i.e. theft of money or property. So if you normally have a deposit of B2,000 from your employees, you can only deduct B200. Please also note that if you withhold the salary for more than 3 days you must pay 15% interest as well, additionally you could face a hefty fine and/or up to 6 months in jail for contravening the Labour Laws.

I have also worked for a large Thai Company here 20 years ago, who took a B50,000 deposit against my employment and refused to refund it when I resigned 2 years later. I flashed them a copy of the Labour Act and then received my deposit back in full. I ran my own Company in the UK for 20 years, and have also run my own company here in Thailand, and a Company in Malaysia.

In summary, if you refuse to pay his wages you are effectively stealing, you can only legally make a deduction for compensation of 20% of his security deposit, which you don't have. Your only course of action is to inform the police who usually can effect a return of monies or properties, if there is an "incentive" for them to do so. I got back a gold chain and pendant very quickly after I gave the B.I.B B500 for their assistance. You have to weigh up the cost of your time against the time taken with settling this matter.

[lemoncake]

Yes, theft is pandemic here. If it's not nailed down, it will go walkabout - and it's not just the rank and file workers that are guilty of this - often the worst culprits are managers. In particular I have found the level of corruption and dishonesty within the hotel sector (from my experience) to be entrenched - skimming, stealing, skiving seem to be a qualification. So you really need to get a grip of how you manage these staff and make them accountable.

Get a copy in English of The Labour Protection Act 1998

The OP needs to really look at the way he is managing his staff, and get a very detailed Company Rules and Regulations handbook printed - he says his is two pages, well from experience ours is around 72 pages. Your staff are your gretest asset, and can also be your most problematic - get detailed and clear contracts in place, make sure your Rules and Regulation of Work are detailed and clear , you can get Labour office to check (again though you need to make sure that you have a good relationship with them). Make sure your security is tightened up - bag checks, and only certain exits for staff when they leave, cameras if you can in specific areas.

With regards to with-holding monies , you really need to check the terms and conditions that you have employed the staff under - and if you have conditions whereby loss of property / theft etc means that the person is responsible for reimbursement. Sometimes, you have to be tough otherwise staff will think they can get away with it. All in all seems like it's a problem you've had before, so look at ways of preventing it / reducing it.

As i mentioned earlier i have a 2 page very detailed company rules and regulations which must be signed prior to accepting the job, however according to Labor Department and lawyer, this rules and regulations are meaningless, should the matter go to Labor Court.

Labor Law, also does not seem to have a clause in regards to theft in the first few days of employment,

I know matters are different should be it a perm employee ie after 120 days of probation, but this is the case of 4 days of employment and hence the confusion and different answers.

In my rules and regulations it states if caught stealing, will be dismissed and loss of salary for that month plus legal action, but what i am trying to find is a reference to the actual law in my particular case of only been employed 4 days.

I worked here for an International Company who applied their standard American Employment Contract Rules and Regulations. After 2 years, my employment was terminated and they said I was not entitled to severance pay as we were on fixed term contracts. This was the same for all Ex-Pats and Thais even those who had worked here 6 years. I downloaded a copy of the Thai Labour Law and found that Thai Law requires them to pay 3 months and I went to the Labour Department who confirmed this. In the end they had to pay me 3 months severance pay. Most of the Ex-Pats got up to 8 months despite their signed contract after they took the company to the labour court.

Please note that, contrary to what you think, Thai Law takes precedence over anything that you write into a Contract of Employment even if signed between both parties. You cannot legally deduct anything from salaries except what is lawful, such as income tax and social security.

The Thai Labour Protection Act can be found here: http://www.labour.go.th

As you will see if you read it properly, you can only deduct the stolen money from a security deposit obtained in advance. Furthermore, you can only deduct a maximum of 20% for "damage to the Employer's business i.e. theft of money or property. So if you normally have a deposit of B2,000 from your employees, you can only deduct B200. Please also note that if you withhold the salary for more than 3 days you must pay 15% interest as well, additionally you could face a hefty fine and/or up to 6 months in jail for contravening the Labour Laws.

I have also worked for a large Thai Company here 20 years ago, who took a B50,000 deposit against my employment and refused to refund it when I resigned 2 years later. I flashed them a copy of the Labour Act and then received my deposit back in full. I ran my own Company in the UK for 20 years, and have also run my own company here in Thailand, and a Company in Malaysia.

In summary, if you refuse to pay his wages you are effectively stealing, you can only legally make a deduction for compensation of 20% of his security deposit, which you don't have. Your only course of action is to inform the police who usually can effect a return of monies or properties, if there is an "incentive" for them to do so. I got back a gold chain and pendant very quickly after I gave the B.I.B B500 for their assistance. You have to weigh up the cost of your time against the time taken with settling this matter.

Thanks for an interesting read.

One can safely assume if written contracts have no meaning, one as an employer at the time of termination can also ask for all the perks back hence the contract is not legal?

ie say if in the contract it says you would be paid meal allowance, then company can ask for this money back, because how can one pick and chose what he likes out of the contract.

I fully understand what you saying about Thai labor law, but if company chose to challenge it in terms of benefits paid being part of the contract, company may win all the "benefits" back as it was part of the contract which is no longer valid.

Hope i am making sense with what i am trying to say.

[Naroge]

Yes, theft is pandemic here. If it's not nailed down, it will go walkabout - and it's not just the rank and file workers that are guilty of this - often the worst culprits are managers. In particular I have found the level of corruption and dishonesty within the hotel sector (from my experience) to be entrenched - skimming, stealing, skiving seem to be a qualification. So you really need to get a grip of how you manage these staff and make them accountable.

Get a copy in English of The Labour Protection Act 1998

The OP needs to really look at the way he is managing his staff, and get a very detailed Company Rules and Regulations handbook printed - he says his is two pages, well from experience ours is around 72 pages. Your staff are your gretest asset, and can also be your most problematic - get detailed and clear contracts in place, make sure your Rules and Regulation of Work are detailed and clear , you can get Labour office to check (again though you need to make sure that you have a good relationship with them). Make sure your security is tightened up - bag checks, and only certain exits for staff when they leave, cameras if you can in specific areas.

With regards to with-holding monies , you really need to check the terms and conditions that you have employed the staff under - and if you have conditions whereby loss of property / theft etc means that the person is responsible for reimbursement. Sometimes, you have to be tough otherwise staff will think they can get away with it. All in all seems like it's a problem you've had before, so look at ways of preventing it / reducing it.

As i mentioned earlier i have a 2 page very detailed company rules and regulations which must be signed prior to accepting the job, however according to Labor Department and lawyer, this rules and regulations are meaningless, should the matter go to Labor Court.

Labor Law, also does not seem to have a clause in regards to theft in the first few days of employment,

I know matters are different should be it a perm employee ie after 120 days of probation, but this is the case of 4 days of employment and hence the confusion and different answers.

In my rules and regulations it states if caught stealing, will be dismissed and loss of salary for that month plus legal action, but what i am trying to find is a reference to the actual law in my particular case of only been employed 4 days.

I worked here for an International Company who applied their standard American Employment Contract Rules and Regulations. After 2 years, my employment was terminated and they said I was not entitled to severance pay as we were on fixed term contracts. This was the same for all Ex-Pats and Thais even those who had worked here 6 years. I downloaded a copy of the Thai Labour Law and found that Thai Law requires them to pay 3 months and I went to the Labour Department who confirmed this. In the end they had to pay me 3 months severance pay. Most of the Ex-Pats got up to 8 months despite their signed contract after they took the company to the labour court.

Please note that, contrary to what you think, Thai Law takes precedence over anything that you write into a Contract of Employment even if signed between both parties. You cannot legally deduct anything from salaries except what is lawful, such as income tax and social security.

The Thai Labour Protection Act can be found here: http://www.labour.go.th

As you will see if you read it properly, you can only deduct the stolen money from a security deposit obtained in advance. Furthermore, you can only deduct a maximum of 20% for "damage to the Employer's business i.e. theft of money or property. So if you normally have a deposit of B2,000 from your employees, you can only deduct B200. Please also note that if you withhold the salary for more than 3 days you must pay 15% interest as well, additionally you could face a hefty fine and/or up to 6 months in jail for contravening the Labour Laws.

I have also worked for a large Thai Company here 20 years ago, who took a B50,000 deposit against my employment and refused to refund it when I resigned 2 years later. I flashed them a copy of the Labour Act and then received my deposit back in full. I ran my own Company in the UK for 20 years, and have also run my own company here in Thailand, and a Company in Malaysia.

In summary, if you refuse to pay his wages you are effectively stealing, you can only legally make a deduction for compensation of 20% of his security deposit, which you don't have. Your only course of action is to inform the police who usually can effect a return of monies or properties, if there is an "incentive" for them to do so. I got back a gold chain and pendant very quickly after I gave the B.I.B B500 for their assistance. You have to weigh up the cost of your time against the time taken with settling this matter.

Thanks for an interesting read.

One can safely assume if written contracts have no meaning, one as an employer at the time of termination can also ask for all the perks back hence the contract is not legal?

ie say if in the contract it says you would be paid meal allowance, then company can ask for this money back, because how can one pick and chose what he likes out of the contract.

I fully understand what you saying about Thai labor law, but if company chose to challenge it in terms of benefits paid being part of the contract, company may win all the "benefits" back as it was part of the contract which is no longer valid.

Hope i am making sense with what i am trying to say.

"because how can one pick and chose what he likes out of the contract."

It's very easy. The illegal parts are not valid, the rest of the contract is. It's the same in most if not all civilized countries.

[lemoncake]

"because how can one pick and chose what he likes out of the contract."

It's very easy. The illegal parts are not valid, the rest of the contract is. It's the same in most if not all civilized countries.

Incorrect. In some countries there is such thing as work place agreement, where by both sides agree to a contract.

With your thinking, you happy to take all the extra perks with are way more than the law , but then want to be legal when it does not suit your needs or wants?

I hope when/if you have employment and you see in the contract something illegal, you turn down the job, instead of accepting it, taking/using perks monthly but then bringing up the so calls illegal part when you either fired or resign

Edited August 10, 2013 by lemoncake

[robblok]

Thanks for an interesting read.

One can safely assume if written contracts have no meaning, one as an employer at the time of termination can also ask for all the perks back hence the contract is not legal?

ie say if in the contract it says you would be paid meal allowance, then company can ask for this money back, because how can one pick and chose what he likes out of the contract.

I fully understand what you saying about Thai labor law, but if company chose to challenge it in terms of benefits paid being part of the contract, company may win all the "benefits" back as it was part of the contract which is no longer valid.

Hope i am making sense with what i am trying to say.

This is just normal contracts do have value only you can't agree on something that is worse for the employee as the standard Thai law. Its the same as in any country.

So the other things would still be valid only the things that are going against Thai law are not. This is standard practice the world round it was something i first learned when studying law (had to as part of studying tax law).

You might not like it as an employer but its to protect the weaker party and that is generally the employee.

[Naroge]

"because how can one pick and chose what he likes out of the contract."

It's very easy. The illegal parts are not valid, the rest of the contract is. It's the same in most if not all civilized countries.

Incorrect. In some countries there is such thing as work place agreement, where by both sides agree to a contract.

With your thinking, you happy to take all the extra perks with are way more than the law , but then want to be legal when it does not suit your needs or wants?

I hope when/if you have employment and you see in the contract something illegal, you turn down the job, instead of accepting it, taking/using perks monthly but then bringing up the so calls illegal part when you either fired or resign

What I wrote is correct. Read carefully.

How you come to your conclusion regarding my thinking and what you hope for my employment I don't understand and don't care as this is not part of the original post where you asked for assistance. I was just naive enough to try to help.

Good luck to you in your business venture.

[Spoonman]

What is the baht amount that was stolen..... lots of waffle for an 80b beer.

[lemoncake]

Thanks for an interesting read.

One can safely assume if written contracts have no meaning, one as an employer at the time of termination can also ask for all the perks back hence the contract is not legal?

ie say if in the contract it says you would be paid meal allowance, then company can ask for this money back, because how can one pick and chose what he likes out of the contract.

I fully understand what you saying about Thai labor law, but if company chose to challenge it in terms of benefits paid being part of the contract, company may win all the "benefits" back as it was part of the contract which is no longer valid.

Hope i am making sense with what i am trying to say.

This is just normal contracts do have value only you can't agree on something that is worse for the employee as the standard Thai law. Its the same as in any country.

So the other things would still be valid only the things that are going against Thai law are not. This is standard practice the world round it was something i first learned when studying law (had to as part of studying tax law).

You might not like it as an employer but its to protect the weaker party and that is generally the employee.

It is not a standard practice as i said, many countries have work place agreement which is NOT governed by labor law of that country.

There are also term contracts, whereby someone is employed for a certain period with certain benefits, there is no severance pay or holiday pay or anything like that.

Employees generally paid higher salary with better perks

[lemoncake]

"because how can one pick and chose what he likes out of the contract."

It's very easy. The illegal parts are not valid, the rest of the contract is. It's the same in most if not all civilized countries.

Incorrect. In some countries there is such thing as work place agreement, where by both sides agree to a contract.

With your thinking, you happy to take all the extra perks with are way more than the law , but then want to be legal when it does not suit your needs or wants?

I hope when/if you have employment and you see in the contract something illegal, you turn down the job, instead of accepting it, taking/using perks monthly but then bringing up the so calls illegal part when you either fired or resign

What I wrote is correct. Read carefully.

How you come to your conclusion regarding my thinking and what you hope for my employment I don't understand and don't care as this is not part of the original post where you asked for assistance. I was just naive enough to try to help.

Good luck to you in your business venture.

"you" was a figure of speech, but since you donot care, why bother to post in the first place?

[lemoncake]

What is the baht amount that was stolen..... lots of waffle for an 80b beer.

a thief is a thief, amount is irrelevant, 20 baht every day amounts to a nice lump sum, while 20 baht today can turn into 2000 tomorrow(given the opportunity)

[robblok]

Thanks for an interesting read.

One can safely assume if written contracts have no meaning, one as an employer at the time of termination can also ask for all the perks back hence the contract is not legal?

ie say if in the contract it says you would be paid meal allowance, then company can ask for this money back, because how can one pick and chose what he likes out of the contract.

I fully understand what you saying about Thai labor law, but if company chose to challenge it in terms of benefits paid being part of the contract, company may win all the "benefits" back as it was part of the contract which is no longer valid.

Hope i am making sense with what i am trying to say.

This is just normal contracts do have value only you can't agree on something that is worse for the employee as the standard Thai law. Its the same as in any country.

So the other things would still be valid only the things that are going against Thai law are not. This is standard practice the world round it was something i first learned when studying law (had to as part of studying tax law).

You might not like it as an employer but its to protect the weaker party and that is generally the employee.

It is not a standard practice as i said, many countries have work place agreement which is NOT governed by labor law of that country.

There are also term contracts, whereby someone is employed for a certain period with certain benefits, there is no severance pay or holiday pay or anything like that.

Employees generally paid higher salary with better perks

Obviously its standard practice in Thailand else the guy earlier on would not have gotten it. Its logical you can do better as the local labor law but not worse. Anyway Thailand is a country where labor law is strong so it is governed by those laws and as we are in Thailand.. too bad for you you lost the argument.

These term contracts you speak of are of course also sanctioned by labor law, where I come from these things are possible and also governed by labor law just there are exceptions.

In general you can never do worse and stuff like severance pay you can certainly not do worse.

But please give me an example where of a first world country where you can go against the labor law and come out on top. You can't, the things you are mentioning are also written down in labor law.

[Spoonman]

What is the baht amount that was stolen..... lots of waffle for an 80b beer.

a thief is a thief, amount is irrelevant, 20 baht every day amounts to a nice lump sum, while 20 baht today can turn into 2000 tomorrow(given the opportunity)

So this newly employed thief robbed you thousands of baht................. in 4 days ........curious as to why the new employee had access to the money.

Or did she pocket 80b from a beer sale ?

[harrry]

So he robbed you 20 baht and you risk a jail term for not paying him his wages.

[lemoncake]

Thanks for an interesting read.

One can safely assume if written contracts have no meaning, one as an employer at the time of termination can also ask for all the perks back hence the contract is not legal?

ie say if in the contract it says you would be paid meal allowance, then company can ask for this money back, because how can one pick and chose what he likes out of the contract.

I fully understand what you saying about Thai labor law, but if company chose to challenge it in terms of benefits paid being part of the contract, company may win all the "benefits" back as it was part of the contract which is no longer valid.

Hope i am making sense with what i am trying to say.

This is just normal contracts do have value only you can't agree on something that is worse for the employee as the standard Thai law. Its the same as in any country.

So the other things would still be valid only the things that are going against Thai law are not. This is standard practice the world round it was something i first learned when studying law (had to as part of studying tax law).

You might not like it as an employer but its to protect the weaker party and that is generally the employee.

It is not a standard practice as i said, many countries have work place agreement which is NOT governed by labor law of that country.

There are also term contracts, whereby someone is employed for a certain period with certain benefits, there is no severance pay or holiday pay or anything like that.

Employees generally paid higher salary with better perks

Obviously its standard practice in Thailand else the guy earlier on would not have gotten it. Its logical you can do better as the local labor law but not worse. Anyway Thailand is a country where labor law is strong so it is governed by those laws and as we are in Thailand.. too bad for you you lost the argument.

These term contracts you speak of are of course also sanctioned by labor law, where I come from these things are possible and also governed by labor law just there are exceptions.

In general you can never do worse and stuff like severance pay you can certainly not do worse.

But please give me an example where of a first world country where you can go against the labor law and come out on top. You can't, the things you are mentioning are also written down in labor law.

Sure, in Australia i had a company and all staff were on work place agreement.

The conditions were they got paid flat rate with no over time or holiday pay.

The upside was their rate was around $4-$5 more per hour for the hours worked.

Few, who were dismissed did try to go to labor relations(labor department) but were not successful because they were on a contract and their pay conditions were much better than the standard rate paid across in the industry.

If the agreement is fair, as in people may miss out on certain things but are rewarded in other ways, so on the balance they win.

I understand what you saying regarding Thai labor law, but as you read before posted by Brian, if challenged, contracts do stand

[lemoncake]

What is the baht amount that was stolen..... lots of waffle for an 80b beer.

a thief is a thief, amount is irrelevant, 20 baht every day amounts to a nice lump sum, while 20 baht today can turn into 2000 tomorrow(given the opportunity)

So this newly employed thief robbed you thousands of baht................. in 4 days ........curious as to why the new employee had access to the money.

Or did she pocket 80b from a beer sale ?

Firstly i never said thousands, i said 20 baht here and 20 baht there, in the end does turn into thousands, alternatively 20 baht today, can be 2000 tomorrow

I do not know how much was stolen, but was caught red handed stealing 60.

After further checks, i managed to find another 40 or so on the same day.

You are correct, it was the sale where she took the money but never bring to the register.

Also things like writing out wrong bills, ie charging customer 50 baht, but other copy(register copy) 40 baht and so on

Again the point is NOT the amount, where do you draw the line? 100 baht? 1000 baht? 10 000 baht?

You also have to keep in mind the ripped off customers, who may not return.

In the recorded instance of the sale, customer paid, but his bill was never marked as paid, because she never gave the money, so customer was asked to pay again (does look like a scam, does not it? from the customer point of view)

[FDog]

What is the baht amount that was stolen..... lots of waffle for an 80b beer.

a thief is a thief, amount is irrelevant, 20 baht every day amounts to a nice lump sum, while 20 baht today can turn into 2000 tomorrow(given the opportunity)

So this newly employed thief robbed you thousands of baht................. in 4 days ........curious as to why the new employee had access to the money.

Or did she pocket 80b from a beer sale ?

Firstly i never said thousands, i said 20 baht here and 20 baht there, in the end does turn into thousands, alternatively 20 baht today, can be 2000 tomorrow

I do not know how much was stolen, but was caught red handed stealing 60.

After further checks, i managed to find another 40 or so on the same day.

You are correct, it was the sale where she took the money but never bring to the register.

Also things like writing out wrong bills, ie charging customer 50 baht, but other copy(register copy) 40 baht and so on

Again the point is NOT the amount, where do you draw the line? 100 baht? 1000 baht? 10 000 baht?

You also have to keep in mind the ripped off customers, who may not return.

In the recorded instance of the sale, customer paid, but his bill was never marked as paid, because she never gave the money, so customer was asked to pay again (does look like a scam, does not it? from the customer point of view)

Oh my God man, just give the guy his pay and be done with it.

I am just astonished that you are jumping up and down about such an insignificant issue.

Oh, and by the way, in Australia, workplace agreement contracts have to be given to the govt for the ok before they are considered legal. So no, just because both parties sign a contract doesn't automatically make it a binding agreement.

[Spoonman]

What is the baht amount that was stolen..... lots of waffle for an 80b beer.

a thief is a thief, amount is irrelevant, 20 baht every day amounts to a nice lump sum, while 20 baht today can turn into 2000 tomorrow(given the opportunity)

So this newly employed thief robbed you thousands of baht................. in 4 days ........curious as to why the new employee had access to the money.

Or did she pocket 80b from a beer sale ?

In the recorded instance of the sale, customer paid, but his bill was never marked as paid, because she never gave the money, so customer was asked to pay again (does look like a scam, does not it? from the customer point of view)

so the bin was returned to the customer after it was paid and then asked to pay again ?

[lemoncake]

so the bin was returned to the customer after it was paid and then asked to pay again ?

Not sure why such details is important for you, but bill was never given to the customer, only money paid.

Later bin was still "unpaid" and customer was asked to pay, when he informed he had already paid

Edited August 11, 2013 by lemoncake

[lemoncake]

Oh my God man, just give the guy his pay and be done with it.

I am just astonished that you are jumping up and down about such an insignificant issue.

Oh, and by the way, in Australia, workplace agreement contracts have to be given to the govt for the ok before they are considered legal. So no, just because both parties sign a contract doesn't automatically make it a binding agreement.

You run your business the way you like and i run mine the way i like, and i am certainly not in the business of rewarding thieves.

As for Australia, unless something has changes in the past 10 years, i suggest you check again