typing romanized Thai

[mangolover]

Has anyone figured out a way to type romanized Thai with the diacritical marks indicating pitch. In the system I've learned, they consist of the equivalent of an accent grave and accent aigu in French, a circonflex, and one more that looks like the bottom of a "u." Setting my keyboard to type in French would give me 3 of the 4, but of course they would only be available for the vowels they are used with in French. I'm sure I'm not the first person to run across this problem. Someone may say, "Just the learn the Thai alphabet; it's not that hard." Sure, but one step at a time…

[Gsxrnz]

If you're using MSWord, look at Unicode or ASCII characters. Look in "help" and you'll see what's available. It would seem that most characters you would need are there. You could probably write macros or shortcuts to call these characters up more easily than pressing 3 or 5 keys to call up the code.

[mangolover]

Thanks. I should have mentioned I'm a Mac user. I don't know if that changes anything, but I don't quite know where to find what you suggest.

[mangolover]

I saw an exchange on this topic from some years ago, and one person suggested just copying from an online dictionary, which I just started doing. I suppose a reasonable stopgap measure would be to start with that, then copy and paste to compile a page listing each vowel with each mark, and use that to copy and paste as you write. Not very efficient, but doable…

[bytebuster]

There are several ways of Thai Romanization, and the biggest problem is that they are not mutually compatible.

Apparently, the same "transcribed" text would be understood differently, depending on what transcription system was used. In other words, you are to specify your Romanization system every time you use it, if you want to be as unambiguous as possible.

Here are two most used systems:

The first one is Royal Thai General System of Transcription (RTGS). It is maybe the most ambiguous, but it was deliberately chosen to be backward compatible with English keyboard. This one you see on road signs, television, etc.

The other one is International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) which is almost absolute as of possible ambiguities and it is also compatible with most natural languages existing in the world, but hard to type on keyboard.

There are many others in between, like SAMPA.

So before choosing how to type, decide what system you will use.

Here are some tricks you may find useful:

1. Keyboard shortcuts in Microsoft Word, link to MSDN. It will let you type accents without even switching to French. Unfortunately, there's no help typing inverted circumflex (caron): ǎ
2. From another comment I found that you're using Mac. Check this link for a nice list of keyboard shortcuts.
3. One may also use Web sites helping to type IPA symbols, like typeit.org
4. Alternatively, you may find many language-specific Web sites that do transcription for texts written in particular languages. One of those is Weew-Waaw which I have developed a while ago. Just paste Thai text, and the site will do a transcription in a chosen transcription system.

[LazyYogi]

On a Mac, click on the country flag at the upper right.

Then select "Show Character Viewer" from the drop down menu.

Under the "Latin" category you'll find many variations of every letter in the alphabet, including the ones you're looking for with marks over the vowels.

[AyG]

By far the easiest way to do this is to use the tool at http://thai-notes.com/tools/ipa_typer.shtml

Just point and click at whatever character you need (only the characters used for Thai IPA are displayed) then copy/paste the finished text.

[Richard W]

For typing on one's own computer, the best solution is to download or set up one's own keyboard. A list of installable keyboards for Windows derived using the MSKLC tool is given at http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?site_id=nrsi&id=uniipakeyboard#b47f8dfb . The Keyman keyboards should usable for free (as in beer) on Linux systems supporting iBus - look up 'Keyman for Linux' (KMfL). Tavultesoft now charges roughly £15 a household for using Keyman keyboards on Windows, though there are legal rip-offs available for Windows. (I got an aggrieved e-mail from Mark Durdin for mentioning one of the rip-offs but not Tavultesoft.) They seem to have an enormous catalogue of freely downloadable keyboards, so I suspect the licenses go towards that and free consulting for worthy developers.

I rolled my own keyboards based on the XSAMPA ASCIIfication rules for both Windows (using MSKLC) and Linux (KMfL). There are several such keyboards around. Mine follow XSAMPA too exactly, and so are not so good for switching between IPA and normal text, so I haven't yet bothered to make them available for free download.

If you're on Windows, there's a nice looking keyboard at http://www.rejc2.co.uk/ipakeyboard/ . Despite what it says, the keyboards are set up to work on Windows 7, and the superscript tone marks are included.

[CaptHaddock]

By far, the easiest way is to learn the Thai alphabet. Takes a month or two.

[Richard W]

By far, the easiest way is to learn the Thai alphabet. Takes a month or two.

Not all programs on all computers allow one to note the vowel length of เงิน [MS]ngoen 'money, silver' by typing เงิ็น, and of those that do, not all will display the difference. Similar problems will arise with noting the vowel length of เล่น [F]len by typing เล็่น - some programs may incorrectly render it the same asเล็น. (Or should we be typing เล่็น with maitaikhu on top?) I presume you expect Mangolover to discover phinthu (in the shift-b position on a kesmanee keyboard) by himself, or do introductory textbooks teach it now?

[Maestro]

It looks to me like many of the replies do not apply to the question posed by Mangolover in the opening post of this topic. He describes four diacritics, three of which he has found used in the French alphabet.

I believe the three he has found are the ones above the letter a in the examples below:

à á â

They are the grave, acute and circumflex accents.

The fourth seems to be the breve accent, shown above the letter e below:

ĕ

Mangolover, one imported question has already been asked: are you using a Windows computer or Apple? What type of keyboard do you use, ie what keys are on it? A photo of it would be useful. The keyboard I use with my Windows computer is called US International and looks like this:

[Richard W]

I believe the three he has found are the ones above the letter a in the examples below:

à á â

They are the grave, acute and circumflex accents.

The fourth seems to be the breve accent, shown above the letter e below:

ĕ

While it's possible the course uses a breve for the rising tone, it should be a caron (so ě not ĕ). It's just possible that ĕ is being used to represent the Thai short vowel /e/, but that would be unusual. Thai2English has resorted to using a breve instead of a caron because carons on vowels are unusual outside IPA-related contexts, and so are (or were) relatively ill-supported by fonts. In general it will be necessary to type the base vowel and the combining diacritic as two separate characters, though many combinations are available as nominally equivalent single characters.

Mangolover, one imported question has already been asked: are you using a Windows computer or Apple?

I also missed it, but in the third post he said he was using a Mac. The SIL reference I gave should also help in this case.

[CaptHaddock]

1. For words like เงิน you have to do what the Thais do, memorize the vowel length as an exception.

2. For words like เล่น you should learn that the ไม้เอก tone marker (') alone also shortens the vowel like the ไม้ไต่คู้ but not always.

Otherwise you find yourself in the idiotic position of regarding the Thai alphabet as inadequate to write the Thai language. By comparison to English Thai orthography is more regular. There is nothing like the range of pronunciation for the words: rough, through, and thorough in Thai. Yet most of us find Roman script to be adequate to write English.

By far, the easiest way is to learn the Thai alphabet. Takes a month or two.

Not all programs on all computers allow one to note the vowel length of เงิน [MS]ngoen 'money, silver' by typing เงิ็น, and of those that do, not all will display the difference. Similar problems will arise with noting the vowel length of เล่น [F]len by typing เล็่น - some programs may incorrectly render it the same as เล็น. (Or should we be typing เล่็น with maitaikhu on top?) I presume you expect Mangolover to discover phinthu (in the shift-b position on a kesmanee keyboard) by himself, or do introductory textbooks teach it now?

[Maestro]

I also missed it, but in the third post he said he was using a Mac. The SIL reference I gave should also help in this case.

I'm afraid I can't be much help with a Mac. With Windows and Microsoft Word, I can easily use the grave, acute and circumflex on all vowels with the United States International keyboard installed. Caron and breve I have never figured out, as I never needed to use them for my writing (Esperanto uses the caron, but that was only a brief intermezzo in my teens and the PC had not yet been invented then)

[AyG]

A few years ago someone posted a macro to help with this problem. It's discussed and available at http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/86125-typing-tones-on-my-computer/

[DtemJai]

Lifted lines: Thai is considered a hard language to translate. In translation business Thai translation is a challenge to translation services providers. An in-depth understanding of Thai culture, as well as the language, is needed for successful Thai translations.

A Thai translator has to face this linguistic challenge. A professional Thai translator must know that in order to employ other vowels, each consonant is written with vowel symbol markings that appear as a subscript following a consonant or as strokes before and/or after a consonant.

Standard Thai is composed of several distinct registers / forms, which consist of different pronouns, qualifying nouns and verbs, to be used in different social contexts.

◦Street Thai: informal, as used between friends and relatives.

◦Elegant Thai: includes respectful terms of address; used in newspapers.

◦Rhetorical Thai: used for public speaking.

◦Religious Thai: used when discussing Buddhism or addressing monks.

◦Royal Thai: used when addressing members of the royal family or describing their activities.

Most Thais usually can speak at only the first and second levels, though they will understand the others. A professional Thai translator must have an in-depth knowledge in the completely different sets of vocabularies and precise understanding which to be used depending on the social context.

Not lifted: For a farang on Thailand, only Street Thai and some Elegant Thai and Rhetorical Thai are necessary, understand, talk, and read.

I will not try to recall or explain any rules, cos when you see a Thai written word, you get the right tone without thinking, but its exceptions. Read subtitles of an English movie in Thai should be more than enough for a common farang in Thailand [ abt 3,000> words]. Thais and semi Thais should do better IMPOBye bye. Im a Scandinavian. P.S. When you translate into English, I guess use of the interpreter skills is better in most practical cases. Back to white wine business, bye again.

[Richard W]

Otherwise you find yourself in the idiotic position of regarding the Thai alphabet as inadequate to write the Thai language.

There's nothing idiotic about that position. For conveying the pronunciation of unknown words, it is inadequate, a view implicitly endorsed by the Royal Institute Dictionary, which borrows a diacritic (phinthu) used for writing Pali so that for Thai they can show where syllable onsets *don't* end. Even Lao has that particular problem, though to a lesser extent.

--------

Meanwhile, I've found that my KMfL keyboard for writing accented vowels doesn't work in LibreOffice 4.0.2.2 on Ubuntu Precise Pangolin. That may defeat some of the SIL keyboards. My keyboard works with other applications (e.g. Firefox), so I think LibreOffice is broken, though I don't know at which version it broke. (Bug reporting is in progress.) I'm pretty sure it was working at Version 3.4. There's a similar bug in OpenOffice 3.4.1, but that seems not to affect my input of accented vowels, and probably won't prevent use of the SIL keyboards.

[kriswillems]

On Ubuntu 12.04 I use the compose key:

system setting

keyboard

layout settings

english (US)

Options

Compose key position

Right alt

Now:

Right Alt + ` + e = è

Right Alt + ' + e = é

Right Alt + U + e = ĕ

Right Alt + ^ + e = ê

(To get U and ^ on a US keyboard you've to use shift too)

I have no idea how to do it for MAC.

Edited August 12, 2013 by kriswillems

[Maestro]

I have found the caron in the Microsoft Word table of characters no and have assigned it a shortcut key. This means that I can type directly on from the keyboard all five vowels with the four accents that Mangolover wants to use, by selecting the United States International keyboard:

àèìòù áéíóú âêîôû ǎěǐǒǔ

The keyboard of my wife's Mac has the same layaout as the keyboard of my PC and a web search tells me that the map also allows the installation of the United States International on the Mac and Microsoft Word on the Mac allows the assignment of a keyboard shortcut to the caron.

[Maestro]

Just now, I found the decimal codes for the vowels with caron for typing in Microsoft Word on a PC. Hold down the left Alt key while typing the corresponding decimal code for the vowel on the numeric keypad:

462 for ǎ

283 for ě

464 for ǐ

466 for ǒ

468 for ǔ

What's the equivalent for LeftAlt+<character code> in MIcrosoft Word on a Mac?

[AyG]

What I find a little odd about this discussion is that nobody has mentioned how to type characters such as ɛ́ɛ̀ɛ̌ɛ̂ ə́ə̀ə̌ə̂ ɔ́ɔ̀ɔ̌ɔ̂ ʉ́ʉ̀ʉ̌ and ʉ̂.

[kriswillems]

http://symbolcodes.tlt.psu.edu/accents/codemacext.html

[Maestro]

Alt+DecimalCode does not seem available in Word for Mac and assigning a keybord shortcut for ˇ does not use it as a diacritic, but there is Control+UnicodeHex with these Hex codes:

01CE for ǎ

011B for ě

01D0 for ǐ

01D2 for ǒ

01D4 for ǔ

For the other diacritics, use the two-key combination diacritic+vowel, using these keys for the diacritics (PC and Mac):

` (key to left of 1) for acute accent

' (apostrophe) for grave accent

^ (Shift+6) for circumflex

[Maestro]

What I find a little odd about this discussion is that nobody has mentioned how to type characters such as ɛ́ɛ̀ɛ̌ɛ̂ ə́ə̀ə̌ə̂ ɔ́ɔ̀ɔ̌ɔ̂ ʉ́ʉ̀ʉ̌ and ʉ̂.

It's because the OP does not need them for the pronunciation system he uses. Apparently, he uses a system that uses only letters of the Latin alphabet (hence romanisation) plus diacritics.

[Richard W]

Meanwhile, I've found that my KMfL keyboard for writing accented vowels doesn't work in LibreOffice 4.0.2.2 on Ubuntu Precise Pangolin.

Upgrading to LibreOffice 4.1 fixed the problem.