Russia will enforce anti-gay propaganda law at Sochi Olympics, govt says

[Jingthing]

...

Because someone is gay does not mean they can't be anti-gay.

...

I couldn't agree more.

[LeCharivari]

It's about the legal terms and conditions of hosting the International Olympic Games and about the atmosphere and the spirit of it.

It's been pointed out the Russian Government already is backtracking on a statement it had made a month ago.

So what ACTUAL "legal terms and conditions of hosting the International Olympic Games" is the new law breaking?

... and how can a law which ONLY prevents anything concerning sexual deviation from what is the traditional Russian norm (sorry about that mouthful, but it is not specifically "anti-gay") being passed to children, especially via the media, have anything at all to do with "the atmosphere and the spirit" of the Olympic Games?

However much anyone may condemn the laws, and believe that children should be encouraged to understand and accept all sexual preferences between consenting adults, I can't see that sex education is the role of the Olympic Games.

[Jingthing]

Waving a rainbow flag in Russia in sight of an underage person is a crime.

How are they supposed to teach about the great gay Russian historical figures to the children of Russia without implying gay might be "interesting" -- also a crime.

It goes on an on.

Putin is exploiting the typical ignorant Russian homophobic view that homosexuality equals pederasty. That's why he veils these laws of persecution in a dressing of protecting the children.

How is he protecting the Russian gay youth who are being violently attacked now by goons inspired by his anti-gay agenda?

Edited August 13, 2013 by Jingthing

[LeCharivari]

That meme above is the OPINION of one person. He blames ONE Russian gay activist on the situation of gays in Russia today. Be very wary of accepting that POV, which many gay people including myself feels comes across as wildly anti-gay activist, at face value. It is NOT any kind of mainstream opinion by any means. Putin scapegoats the gays. Some gay character on thaivisa scapegoats one Russian gay activist. It doesn't wash. The BLAME is on Putin but without a homophobic people to approve of the scapegoating, it wouldn't work.

Putin criminalizes gay propaganda. Like a rainbow pin. So threatening. I think we are hearing some bizarre anti-gay ACTIVIST propaganda right here, even to a level of PUTIN apologist.

If this sounds strong, consider what I am reacting to -- a VERY RADICAL anti gay activist agenda.

Everything posted here is "the OPINION of one person".

To correct a few misrepresentations:

I do NOT "blame" one Russian gay activist for the present "situation" of gays in Russia - that "situation" pre-dates Nikolay and Putin by decades if not centuries.

What I am doing is giving a few FACTS and a timeline, plus Nikolay's OWN OPINION of who is responsible for bringing the issue of gay rights into Russian politics - I could be wrong, but I imagine he is rather better informed than anyone here.

[LeCharivari]

That meme above is the OPINION of one person. He blames ONE Russian gay activist on the situation of gays in Russia today. Be very wary of accepting that POV, which many gay people including myself feels comes across as wildly anti-gay activist, at face value. It is NOT any kind of mainstream opinion by any means. Putin scapegoats the gays. Some gay character on thaivisa scapegoats one Russian gay activist. It doesn't wash. The BLAME is on Putin but without a homophobic people to approve of the scapegoating, it wouldn't work.

Putin criminalizes gay propaganda. Like a rainbow pin. So threatening. I think we are hearing some bizarre anti-gay ACTIVIST propaganda right here, even to a level of PUTIN apologist.

If this sounds strong, consider what I am reacting to -- a VERY RADICAL anti gay activist agenda.

"Putin criminalizes gay propaganda. Like a rainbow pin."

Really?

Can you give anything to support that?

Anywhere where he has said that wearing a rainbow pin is a criminal offence?

Anywhere where anyone has actually said that - apart from the OPINION of some gay activists as to what the law says?

[Jingthing]

Supposed facts to support an agenda that gay activists brought this pain upon themselves. I TOTALLY reject that. You do not blame the persecuted for their own persecution. History teaches us that lesson. Don't repeat it with the gays of Russia.

[LeCharivari]

...

Because someone is gay does not mean they can't be anti-gay.

...

I couldn't agree more.

... and because someone is "anti-gay-activist" does not mean they are "anti-gay" - just that they have a different view on how gay rights should be and are achieved.

[Jingthing]

...

Because someone is gay does not mean they can't be anti-gay.

...

I couldn't agree more.

... and because someone is "anti-gay-activist" does not mean they are "anti-gay" - just that they have a different view on how gay rights should be and are achieved.

Not necessarily. But possibly. It depends. In the world there do exist self hating gays, just as there are self hating Jews, etc.

[LeCharivari]

Waving a rainbow flag in Russia in sight of an underage person is a crime.

How are they supposed to teach about the great gay Russian historical figures to the children of Russia without implying gay might be "interesting" -- also a crime.

It goes on an on.

Putin is exploiting the typical ignorant Russian homophobic view that homosexuality equals pederasty. That's why he veils these laws of persecution in a dressing of protecting the children.

How is he protecting the Russian gay youth who are being violently attacked now by goons inspired by his anti-gay agenda?

"Waving a rainbow flag in Russia in sight of an underage person is a crime."

Your OPINION - and, to be fair, the OPINION of many other gay activists.

The FACT, though, is that no-one has yet been arrested for just "waving a rainbow flag" - the one arrest so far was handing out gay literature and holding a gay placard. Let's at least be accurate about the law, as otherwise it makes it a bit difficult to debate it.

[LeCharivari]

...

Because someone is gay does not mean they can't be anti-gay.

...

I couldn't agree more.

... and because someone is "anti-gay-activist" does not mean they are "anti-gay" - just that they have a different view on how gay rights should be and are achieved.

Not necessarily. But possibly. It depends. In the world there do exist self hating gays, just as there are self hating Jews, etc.

I am sure there are also self hating gay activists, etc, etc.

Let's not continue this rather pointless and childish argument of who is more or less pro or anti gay. No-one has a monopoly on what being gay means, what it means to be gay, or on how gay rights are best achieved and that's really something for another Forum.

Let's just stick to the topic and try to leave out any personal abuse or insinuations.

[LeCharivari]

"Don't make a fuss and the people who hate us will let us be." Extraordinary.

Stay at the back of the bus Rosa!

No one is saying that.

No one, as far as I am aware has EVER said that (at least not here).

What I have said, repeatedly, is that there is a right time and a right place and a right way to achieve equality and human rights and a wrong time and a wrong place and a wrong way.

The time, place and way chosen by Nikolay were wrong, and HE claims responsibility for the time, the place and the way. I am not arguing with him.

Supposed facts to support an agenda that gay activists brought this pain upon themselves. I TOTALLY reject that. You do not blame the persecuted for their own persecution. History teaches us that lesson. Don't repeat it with the gays of Russia.

No agenda. Simply facts.

No one is saying "that gay activists brought this pain upon themselves".

Only ONE of the "gay activists" is actually a Russian, and even he spends most of his time abroad, so the "gay activists" are not subject to "this pain".

"The persecuted" have no responsibility for "this pain" in any way, shape or form - the millions of gay Russians weren't given any choice in the matter and those few who were asked advised him against provoking a reaction at that time.

I am simply saying that Nikolay Alekseyev should be responsible for his actions - he was quite happy to boast of his "achievement" before things started to go wrong, so why should he be absolved from all responsibility now? Just because he is a "gay activist" he should be excused for being so arrogant and selfish?

I can't think of any other reason to support and validate his actions, as all the US and Russian LGBT activist groups that previously supported him have now rejected him.

NO ONE, least of all ME, is blaming "the persecuted" or "gay activists" in general, however many times you repeat that assertion.

[LeCharivari]

Waving a rainbow flag in Russia in sight of an underage person is a crime.

How are they supposed to teach about the great gay Russian historical figures to the children of Russia without implying gay might be "interesting" -- also a crime.

It goes on an on.

Putin is exploiting the typical ignorant Russian homophobic view that homosexuality equals pederasty. That's why he veils these laws of persecution in a dressing of protecting the children.

How is he protecting the Russian gay youth who are being violently attacked now by goons inspired by his anti-gay agenda?

"Waving a rainbow flag in Russia in sight of an underage person is a crime."

Your OPINION - and, to be fair, the OPINION of many other gay activists.

The FACT, though, is that no-one has yet been arrested for just "waving a rainbow flag" - the one arrest so far was handing out gay literature and holding a gay placard. Let's at least be accurate about the law, as otherwise it makes it a bit difficult to debate it.

Sorry, I wasn't clear and I'm too late to edit.

I should have said that the one arrest so far was handing out gay literature and holding a gay placard and waving a rainbow flag on a town hall steps.

[Scott]

This topic is about the Olympics. Drop the nasty arguing or you will be suspended.

[LeCharivari]

You beat me to it - I was just in the process of writing an apology for going off-topic and saying that Nikolay, etc should be continued, if at all, where it started (where I'll be quite happy to reply to post # 24 if it's repeated there)

Getting back to the Olympics issue, I would be interested in an answer to my question back in post # 32, which I'll take the liberty of repeating in case it got lost in the diversion:

It's about the legal terms and conditions of hosting the International Olympic Games and about the atmosphere and the spirit of it.

It's been pointed out the Russian Government already is backtracking on a statement it had made a month ago.

So what ACTUAL "legal terms and conditions of hosting the International Olympic Games" is the new law breaking?

... and how can a law which ONLY prevents anything concerning sexual deviation from what is the traditional Russian norm (sorry about that mouthful, but it is not specifically "anti-gay" even though that is its effect) being passed to children, especially via the media, have anything at all to do with "the atmosphere and the spirit" of the Olympic Games?

However much anyone may condemn the laws, and believe that children should be encouraged to understand and accept all sexual preferences between consenting adults, I can't see that sex education is the role of the Olympic Games.

[Jingthing]

Gay does not equal sex. Yes there is such thing as gay sex, but gay is a an IDENTITY GROUP of human beings. Yes, in Russia, a rainbow flag is gay propaganda because it is the flag representing gay pride by gay people. Russia is not down with that. That's one thing but they're taking their oppression of gay people too far. People are getting hurt. Silence by international people is NOT an option. Today anti-gay-propaganda laws and Nazi thugs beating up and probably murdering gay people with seemingly implicit government approval ... WHAT NEXT?!?

Edited August 13, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

This indicates the IOC is validating Russian's specifically anti-gay laws and approves of them being respected at Sochi. Something's got to give. This is UNACCEPTABLE.

Worth reading:

Either way, the IOC’s demand that gay people remain functionally closeted during the games can only make matters worse. The Committee has essentially accused openly gay people of “demonstrating” their sexuality as “propaganda” just by being gay—perfectly mirroring Russia’s new law. That’s not a solution. It’s the exact kind of homophobic thinking that got us here in the first place.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/08/13/russia_and_the_ioc_agree_athletes_and_spectators_shouldn_t_be_openly_gay.html

Edited August 13, 2013 by Jingthing

[Publicus]

It looks like the 178 days from now to the opening ceremony at the Sochi Winter Olympic Games will be globally raucus.

The 178 days however can be expected to be but a prelude to the opening ceremony and to the games themselves, as many athletes and visitors promise to make these Olympic Games a potentially wild and unpredictable event.

All thanks to Mother Russia and to Vlad the Impaler.

And, yeah, we Americans have pretty much been troublemakers in the world since around 1776.

President says he looks forward to gay, lesbian athletes winning medals

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/olympics/2013/08/09/obama-rejects-olympic-boycott-sochi/2637635/

President Barack Obama is rooting for gay and lesbian athletes to medal at the Sochi Olympics. If it's an American, even better

.

"Nobody is more offended than me by some of the anti-gay and lesbian legislation that you've been seeing in Russia," he said, rejecting the idea of an Olympic boycott on Friday in a White House news conference.

"One of the things I'm really looking forward to is maybe some gay and lesbian athletes bringing home the gold or silver or bronze, which I think would go a long way in rejecting the kind of attitudes that we're seeing there, and if Russia doesn't have gay or lesbian athletes, then it probably makes their team weaker."

Gay athlete plans to wear rainbow pin to Sochi Olympics in Russia

http://dailyxtra.com/world/news/gay-athlete-plans-wear-rainbow-pin-sochi-olympics-in-Russia

Despite ongoing persecution of gay people in Russia, Blake Skjellerup, a gay speed skater from New Zealand, says he will be wearing a rainbow pin to the Sochi Olympic games in 2014, and “If that gets me in trouble, then so be it.”

“For me it’s less about taking a stand and more about just being myself,” he says. “I have no interest in going back into the closet in Sochi . . . This is not about defiance, this is me standing up for what I believe in.

“The Olympics are all about diversity and a celebration of humanity, and sexuality is included in that, so I will not be hiding that,” he says.

Entertainment World Leads Outcry Against Russia

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=210824463

From Hollywood to Broadway, the entertainment industry is using its star power and financial muscle to raise a storm of protest over the anti-gay legislation in Russia that is battering the image of the Winter Olympics in Sochi.

Actor-playwright Harvey Fierstein, British writer-actor Stephen Fry and 'Star Trek' actor George Takei are among those who have publicly condemned the new law, fueling an uproar that is overshadowing preparations for the Feb. 7-23 Olympics.

With stars and activists using their high-profile platform to bring the issue to global attention, the gay rights crackdown in Russia has exploded into a hot-button controversy that is challenging Olympic leaders like no other since the protests over Tibet and human rights before the 2008 Games in Beijing.

Let’s all help to make Sochi Olympics the Gay Games:

Forget the calls to boycott or move the Sochi Olympics to protest Russia’s new anti-gay law; the best way to deal with such idiotic legislation is to expose it for the ridiculous, draconian initiative it is.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/amateur/2013/08/13/lets_all_help_to_make_sochi_olympics_the_gay_games_dimanno.html

New Zealand speed skater Blake Skjellerup, homosexual and activist, will wear the Rainbow Pin created by the London 2012 Olympic Organizing Committee to promote diversity.

American figure skater Johnny Weir intends to be his flamboyant gay self at the Sochi Olympics.

"I defy any Russian government authority to drag an athlete off the medal podium or a lesbian personality out of the broadcast booth for the crime of making a pro-gay gesture or statement," said Weir, who is married to a Russian immigrant to the U.S., Viktor Voronov..

Sochi Athletes Not Exempt From Gay Law

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/mobile/article/483997.html

Sports Minister Vitaly Mutko said Thursday that Russia's legislation against "gay propaganda" would apply to athletes and visitors of the Olympic Games in Sochi this winter, despite earlier reassurances by the International Olympic Committee that it would not.

The announcement comes as protests against the legislation intensify in the West and calls for an Olympic boycott spread, with the most recent displays of outrage being American bartenders pouring vodka outside the Russian Consulate in New York on Wednesday.

St. Petersburg lawmaker Vitaly Milonov, one of the controversial law's authors, also said the law must be in effect during the Olympics and applied to visitors.

Olympic Committee Could Punish Athletes For Speaking Out Against Russian Anti-Gay Law

http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2013/08/12/2452621/olympic-committee-could-punish-athletes-for-speaking-out-against-russian-anti-gay-law/

With just six months to go before the 2014 Winter Olympics open in Sochi, Russia, the International Olympic Committee is facing a dilemma in its hand-picked host country: Russia passed an anti-gay law earlier this year that outlaws homosexual propaganda and punishes any instance of it with fines, jail time, and possible deportation. That’s bad news for an organization that prides itself on tolerance, especially considering there will be LGBT athletes at the Games.

Facing pressure from LGBT activists and even President Obama, the IOC has none the less announced that it intends to take action against any athlete who speaks out against the law during the Games.

Talk about missing the point.

Olympian Johnny Weir: 'Not Afraid Of Being Arrested' Over Russia Anti-Gay Laws

thenewcivilrightsmovement.com

http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/johnny-weir-marries-boyfriend-victor-voronov-201221

Appeasement and rainbow pins won't stop Putin's witch hunt

http://prospect.org/article/sticking-it-sochi-leading-russian-lgbt-activists-what-will-make-difference

There’s no point in pretending that marching around the Olympic Village in Sochi this winter wearing rainbow pins will make a jot of difference, even on the medal-awards platform.

“The Kremlin,” Russian LGBT activist Alexei Davydov said, “has taken a page from the Middle Ages. Incapable of solving the country's pressing problems, and with Putin's ratings falling, the Kremlin has decided to consolidate society through fear—and to this purpose is engaged in a search for enemies both internal and external. Gays have been chosen as these victims.”

The focus of the Olympic Movement is to contribute to building a peaceful and better world by educating youth through sport practised without discrimination of any kind and in the Olympic spirit, which requires mutual understanding with a spirit of friendship, solidarity and fair play.

Throughout all these challenges – inevitably – the Olympic Movement must confront the world of politics, as there is now a general recognition that sport, as it grows in stature and importance, cannot stand aside from political involvement. Sport must also confront its own ethical standards, which are much wider than the huge challenge of doping in sport. Olympic sport should review its educational role and its association with culture.

http://cw.routledge.com/textbooks/0415346045/endorsements/default.asp

Edited August 13, 2013 by Publicus

[Jingthing]

Thanks so much for posting this link:

http://prospect.org/article/sticking-it-sochi-leading-russian-lgbt-activists-what-will-make-difference

It's got the real meat people really need to read. This is no joke and Putin's persecution of gays in Russia DOES deserve the world's attention. This article makes it clear above anything else, the world at least needs to watch this as it happens, all the details, and report them widely. There IS much more the world can do than wearing rainbow pins at Sochi ...

“Every time that Putin, or other government officials, or representatives of Russian big business or cultural institutions step foot into the West,” says Gessen, “s/he should have a hellish experience. They should encounter protests and questions about these laws everywhere they turn.”

Edited August 13, 2013 by Jingthing

[Publicus]

You beat me to it - I was just in the process of writing an apology for going off-topic and saying that Nikolay, etc should be continued, if at all, where it started (where I'll be quite happy to reply to post # 24 if it's repeated there)

Getting back to the Olympics issue, I would be interested in an answer to my question back in post # 32, which I'll take the liberty of repeating in case it got lost in the diversion:

It's about the legal terms and conditions of hosting the International Olympic Games and about the atmosphere and the spirit of it.

It's been pointed out the Russian Government already is backtracking on a statement it had made a month ago.

So what ACTUAL "legal terms and conditions of hosting the International Olympic Games" is the new law breaking?

... and how can a law which ONLY prevents anything concerning sexual deviation from what is the traditional Russian norm (sorry about that mouthful, but it is not specifically "anti-gay" even though that is its effect) being passed to children, especially via the media, have anything at all to do with "the atmosphere and the spirit" of the Olympic Games?

However much anyone may condemn the laws, and believe that children should be encouraged to understand and accept all sexual preferences between consenting adults, I can't see that sex education is the role of the Olympic Games.

Gay athlete plans to wear rainbow pin to Sochi Olympics in Russia

http://dailyxtra.com/world/news/gay-athlete-plans-wear-rainbow-pin-sochi-olympics-in-Russia

Despite ongoing persecution of gay people in Russia, Blake Skjellerup, a gay speed skater from New Zealand, says he will be wearing a rainbow pin to the Sochi Olympic games in 2014, and “If that gets me in trouble, then so be it.”

“For me it’s less about taking a stand and more about just being myself,” he says. “I have no interest in going back into the closet in Sochi . . . This is not about defiance, this is me standing up for what I believe in.

“The Olympics are all about diversity and a celebration of humanity, and sexuality is included in that, so I will not be hiding that,” he says

[Jingthing]

People should also read this:

http://americablog.com/2013/08/russian-gay-kidnap-boy-torture-video.html

Welcome to Vladimir Putin’s Russia.

Oh, and the Russians have announced that if they finally catch the guys who did this, now that the foreign pressure got to be too great, the maximum penalty they’re going for is 3 months’ jail time.

Just for comparison, if you shoot a cat in Russia, you get 5 years.

There’s a reason people are increasingly invoking Nazi Germany and the 1936 Nazi Olympics.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Jingthing

[Publicus]

US Lawmaker Calls for Olympic Gay Rainbow Flag Parade to ‘Embarrass’ Putin

http://www.freenewspos.com/news/article/d/103673/today/us-lawmaker-calls-for-olympic-gay-rainbow-flag-parade-to-embarrass-putin

WASHINGTON, August 12 (RIA Novosti) – A week after senior US lawmaker Sen. Chuck Schumer called Russian President Vladimir Putin a “schoolyard bully,” he urged athletes marching in the opening ceremonies at the Winter Olympics in Sochi next year to wave the rainbow flag to show support for gay rights and embarrass the Russian leader.

“When we march initially, all the countries should wave the multicolored flag for gay rights. That would be pretty embarrassing for Putin, let our athletes participate and still take a stand,” Schumer said on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” program.

“He resents that Russia is no longer the major power in the world that it used to be," Sen Schumer said. "Its population, of course, with all the states – Ukraine, all the Baltic states, the east Asian states gone -- they’re no longer a big power,” adding that Putin should try to rebuild Russia’s stature by growing the country’s economy.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Publicus

[Publicus]

Sen Schumer is onto a great idea but it isn't his original idea and he's not the only one who's talking about displaying the Rainbow flag of freedom and unity during the Sochi Winter Olympic Games.

Consequently, Russian security goons will have to examine each athlete and each visitor and their bags etc before they enter the Olympic stadium for the opening ceremonies, which of course have the parade of nations as a central feature, to try to insure no one has a Rainbow flag in their possession that can be displayed in the stadium at any time during the opening ceremonies, the parade especially.

Of course many countries would not ever consider doing such a thing given their particular religion or because they simply would not want to participate in making the freedom and unity statement Sen Schumer and so many others advocate.

However, the old saying applies that where there's a will there's a way, and plenty of athletes, many spectators and a good number of the nations on parade would be greatly interested in showing and waving the Rainbow flag.

Can you picture the Russian security goons mobbing around and roughing up anyone, athlete or spectator, who displays and waves the Rainbow flag during the opening ceremonies or at any time during the Olympic Games, all of it live on television for all the world to see?

Vlad the Impaler already has his hands full due to the global commotion his vile and cruel law has caused and we're six months away from the opening ceremony.

Vlad has guaranteed that the 2014 Sochi Olympic Games will be one of the most historic Olympic Games of all time.

Congratulations to Mother Russia and thank you to Vlad the Impaler.

Vlad already has the biggest headache in the world and it's only going to get worse for him and his thugs.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Publicus

[Credo]

Some of the lawmakers probably have no concern for gay rights, but they would like to stick it to Putin over the Snowden affair.

They are two different things.

Please don't use gay rights and human rights to get even with anyone. Use them to get the rights for the people who deserve them.

[Publicus]

Thanks so much for posting this link:

http://prospect.org/article/sticking-it-sochi-leading-russian-lgbt-activists-what-will-make-difference

It's got the real meat people really need to read. This is no joke and Putin's persecution of gays in Russia DOES deserve the world's attention. This article makes it clear above anything else, the world at least needs to watch this as it happens, all the details, and report them widely. There IS much more the world can do than wearing rainbow pins at Sochi ...

“Every time that Putin, or other government officials, or representatives of Russian big business or cultural institutions step foot into the West,” says Gessen, “s/he should have a hellish experience. They should encounter protests and questions about these laws everywhere they turn.”

Well, yeah, the views stated in the article almost certainly must represent the thinking and views of 99.9% of gay people and a huge number of others.

The article anyway certainly says the way it is.

[Publicus]

Some of the lawmakers probably have no concern for gay rights, but they would like to stick it to Putin over the Snowden affair.

They are two different things.

Please don't use gay rights and human rights to get even with anyone. Use them to get the rights for the people who deserve them.

Sen Schumer is 100% on gay rights, no question. Always has been.

That Sen Schumer of New York state disrespects and dislikes Putin for his policies and positions in general is quite another matter.

So the two issues overlap somewhat. But Sen Schumer never mentioned Edward Snowden in his quoted statement, and I read a lot of media reports of his statement before I chose the one I posted.

Sen Schumer's point is to fly the Rainbow flag during the opening ceremonies of the Sochi Winter Olympics. That's his main point

[geriatrickid]

I think this is a far bigger issue than "gay rights". At its core is fundamental human rights. Putin is playing to his Russian audience and he'll get the support he wants to thumb his nose at the world.

Unfortunately, for Putin, he may have miscalculated as the winter Olympics are very different than the summer Olympics with a demographic that skews towards Europe, North America and the developed Asian countries. Most athletes are apolitical, however, I would expect that the women will do something. If anyone understands the hardship and pain of discrimination its the women athletes who don't receive the same funding as male athletes. I'd bet on the hockey players doing something to express themselves. Even though, most of them are heterosexual, they have had to go through abuse to play the game and they are mentally tough enough, and ready to put some bullies in their place.

I see no reason to move the games. In fact, I think it would be counterproductive. Keep in mind that Russia isn't going to be able to deliver on the same experience that the Japanese, American and Canadian venues have provided and to which Sochi will be compared. Let the Russians suffer the criticism, and let the media cover the human interest stories. It is certain that every major network will carry stories in the persecution of gay kids, and maybe that isn't such a bad thing. Russia will be scrutinized and Putin may finally be humbled at an event that he sees as his crowning glory.

[PoorSucker]

Off topic post removed.

[Publicus]

I think this is a far bigger issue than "gay rights". At its core is fundamental human rights. Putin is playing to his Russian audience and he'll get the support he wants to thumb his nose at the world.

Unfortunately, for Putin, he may have miscalculated as the winter Olympics are very different than the summer Olympics with a demographic that skews towards Europe, North America and the developed Asian countries. Most athletes are apolitical, however, I would expect that the women will do something. If anyone understands the hardship and pain of discrimination its the women athletes who don't receive the same funding as male athletes. I'd bet on the hockey players doing something to express themselves. Even though, most of them are heterosexual, they have had to go through abuse to play the game and they are mentally tough enough, and ready to put some bullies in their place.

I see no reason to move the games. In fact, I think it would be counterproductive. Keep in mind that Russia isn't going to be able to deliver on the same experience that the Japanese, American and Canadian venues have provided and to which Sochi will be compared. Let the Russians suffer the criticism, and let the media cover the human interest stories. It is certain that every major network will carry stories in the persecution of gay kids, and maybe that isn't such a bad thing. Russia will be scrutinized and Putin may finally be humbled at an event that he sees as his crowning glory.

A number of your points are well taken.

However, I really doubt Putin is constitutionally capable of ever being or feeling humbled, or reduced, or humiliated - or wrong. Putin's right, the world is wrong, is very much how Vlad thinks and how he sees things. He's a hard nosed and thick skulled dimwit former KGB guy who has political opponents imprisoned or, in numerous instances, eliminated with extreme prejudice, i.e., killed (impaled, if you will). The trail of his former opponents is a long and winding one. Putin is not a guy who's reflective or can be moved, or who has any conscience or scruples of any kind.

Most athletes have indeed been historically apolitical but this younger generation of Olympians are from the demographic you correctly identify as conscious of human rights, gay rights and marriage, civil rights in general and much more in these respects. They originate from regions of the world where the youngest demographic supports or votes for Prez Obama and other political leaders who are like or similar to Barack Obama, i.e., leaders of governments who present a serious break from past social-cultural-political thinking and world view. (Although I wouldn't spotlight Steven Harper or David Cameron, among others, as beacons of light or hope.)

The current global generation of Olympians know Putin for the tyrant he is and, faced with Putin's blatant offenses against humankind in an Olympic context, likely would be motivated to express themselves in this regard. I'd say as a hockey fan (and a nimble center) who goes back to the days of Rocket Richard that the young generation of Olympian hockey players are a part of the subject generation rather than deserving of being assigned special status as Olympic competitors or as the exceptional athletes they are back home.

[Jingthing]

Some of the lawmakers probably have no concern for gay rights, but they would like to stick it to Putin over the Snowden affair.

They are two different things.

Please don't use gay rights and human rights to get even with anyone. Use them to get the rights for the people who deserve them.

This point does not make any sense and in my opinion is simply NOT TRUE.

If you're talking about American politicians, some are openly anti-gay rights, and there is absolutely NO WAY they would EVER advocate for rainbow flag waving anywhere in the world, Russia, Kansas City ... anywhere.

The Rainbow Flag is the flag representing GAY PRIDE, historically developed in the early days of the Gay Liberation Movement. An American anti-Putin politician who is also anti-gay rights won't go there with pushing the rainbow flag, trust me.

There are many American politicians as homophobic as their Russian counterparts, but happily not in any kind of majority that could ever do anything as totally ODIOUS as Putin any more.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Jingthing

[Credo]

Thanks for the input. I was not suggesting that this guy is being disingenuous, I was speaking more on a larger level.

I can see some politicians who would do absolutely nothing for gays who might suddenly change as a way of sticking it to Putin.

The gay movement can use all the help it can get.