Russia will enforce anti-gay propaganda law at Sochi Olympics, govt says

[FDog]

Much ado about nothing.

The games will be held, they will be well run.

[Jingthing]

Much ado about nothing.

The games will be held, they will be well run.

The games will be run, almost definitely in Sochi, with a small chance of a move to Vancouver. (The IOC has not totally ruled a move out yet.) Sure, they will be well run. Also, sure, there will be some level of visible protest against the Russian persecution of their gay people. Again, Sochi is one thing, it's an international public event, but the Russian persecution of gay people is an ONGOING issue, before, during, and after Sochi.

[Publicus]

The plot thickens. Something for the heterosexual men:

176699060.jpg.CROP.article568-large.jpg

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/08/18/kseniya_ryzhova_and_tatyana_firova_russian_athletes_kiss_on_winners_podium.html

Just a victory kiss or a protest kiss?

You decide.

At the World Athletics Championships in Moscow, August 17.

Anyone who actually believes there isn't going to be ALL kinds of visible protest (ambiguous and not ambiguous) against Putin's anti-gay policies at Sochi, I've got a bridge to sell you.

BTW, it is STILL possible for the games to be moved to Vancouver.

This happened just the other day during the World Athletics Championships currently underway in Moscow. And the two athletes are Russian besides.

The Russian officials of the team are playing down the kiss, saying it is just a celebratory moment.

I don't know. It looks to me like more than a celebratory kiss. But then I dunno. And who does know? I mean, whatever happened to the good old fashioned effusive Russian bear hug? But maybe that's just for the guys at the podium.

Neither am I the Russian Government's sports minister, who said the anti "gay propaganda" law would be strictly enforced during the Olympics and at all times involving everyone. Talk about creating headaches for yourself.

Still, the law is vague enough to include this kiss but arbitrary enough to ignore it. There's no actual way to know what the law says or means, not with any reasonable expectations. Welcome to Russia, the worst Olympic Games host government in history.

We still don't know whether anything will come of this puckering up because of the law itself and due to selective enforcement. Maybe the new law isn't going to apply to Russians and will affect foreigners only.

Who knows?

A Kiss Between 2 Athletes On A Moscow Podium Has Brought More Attention To Russia's 'Gay Propaganda' Law

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/kiss-in-moscow-leads-to-controversy-2013-8#ixzz2cOr23H00

A podium kiss in Moscow has led to further attention being shone on Russia's harsh new homosexuality laws.

Russian runners Kseniya Ryzhova and Tatyana Firova kissed on the podium after winning the 4x400 meter relay at the World Athletics Championships in Moscow.

According to Sky News, sources in the Russia team camp are downplaying the incident, saying it was simply a celebration and there were no politics involved.

It's the latest twist in a controversy that is only likely to get worse.

[Publicus]

Much ado about nothing.

The games will be held, they will be well run.

The best laid plans of mice and men..........

[Jingthing]

A Russian voice for BOYCOTT. Like I said before, there are many DIVERSE opinions being expressed. I don't think there will be a boycott, but don't buy into the line that there is consistent message from Russian gays on what they want the world to do in response to them being SCAPEGOATED.

http://www.advocate.com/arts-entertainment/photography/2013/08/19/interview-russian-artist-slava-mogutin-backs-boycott-sochi

And the really big thing we can do is to organize the boycott of the Sochi Winter Olympics, Putin's favorite pet project and propaganda vehicle for his corrupt regime. We must keep on putting pressure on Putin and the Russian government until the antigay laws are repealed once and for all!

What's REALLY happening to the gays in Russia now?

Do you have friends dealing with this over there?
In recent months, even before the antigay legislation was introduced, I've been getting a flood of emails and messages with the cries of help from many gay Russians who feel trapped in the increasingly hostile and homophobic situation. Most of my Russian artist friends who are gay, have either left the country, or died recently under mysterious circumstances. Luckily, my political asylum in the U.S. set the precedent and opened the doors to many similar cases for gay refugees from Russia, Ukraine, and other former USSR republics that recently adopted similar antigay laws.

[rubin]

... The problem was in the gays themselves, like Mr Alexeev, a provocateur who discredited the gay movement in Russia by his deeds.

You are a valued contributor here, being Russian. So I think you just placed BLAME on Mr. Alexeev (and "the gays") which I interpret as some kind of excuse for the wave of anti-gay oppression in Russia. Please tell us in your opinion what Mr. Alexeev did that was so horribly wrong that millions of Russian gays must pay for that now. The more detail you can provide the better. Thank you.

Gays have always lived in Russia, like anywhere in the world. However, in a conservative Russian society it would always had been better for gays to keep low-profile. Don’t ask-don’t tell. This situation existed until the first Moscow gay pride parade organized by Mr Alexeev with hardly 200 visitors took place. It was obviously stupid to hold such an event in a country where homosexuality is not tolerated by the society. Same like the story with the Pussy Riot. The church was not the right place to make a punk concert. If the Pussies would have held such event in the mosque in the city of Grozny, Chechnya, they would be dead very quickly even before the police would have rescued them. Alexeev is a gay-bolshevik, a revolutioner, provoking the authorities and citizens with gay parades and other noisy things. He is making lots of noise and now the Russian gays have to go deeply underground as deep as they were during the Soviet times. It looks very obvious, Alexeev is working and get paid for his job to make this noise but in case with Russia it’s counterproductive. Now gays have become scapegoated and received a feedback from the Government – this law which you are talking about. Russian LGBT society surely does not deserve this law but they can say a big thanks to Nikolay. There will never be a Gay Revolution in Russia like it has happened in the West, it is impossible.

[Credo]

It seems, Rubin, that things are changing in Russia and some of the local folks don't like living in the closet. It seems that artists also like to sing about the things that others don't care for.

You can blame those silly Pussies and you can blame those awful gay parades, but I don't think the clock of time is going to start running backwards.

You might want to befriend North Korea. They seem to have a better handle on dealing with these decadent Western customs and ideas.

[F430murci]

The plot thickens. Something for the heterosexual men:

176699060.jpg.CROP.article568-large.jpg

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/08/18/kseniya_ryzhova_and_tatyana_firova_russian_athletes_kiss_on_winners_podium.html

Just a victory kiss or a protest kiss?

You decide.

At the World Athletics Championships in Moscow, August 17.

Anyone who actually believes there isn't going to be ALL kinds of visible protest (ambiguous and not ambiguous) against Putin's anti-gay policies at Sochi, I've got a bridge to sell you.

BTW, it is STILL possible for the games to be moved to Vancouver.

This happened just the other day during the World Athletics Championships currently underway in Moscow. And the two athletes are Russian besides.

The Russian officials of the team are playing down the kiss, saying it is just a celebratory moment.

I don't know. It looks to me like more than a celebratory kiss. But then I dunno. And who does know? I mean, whatever happened to the good old fashioned effusive Russian bear hug? But maybe that's just for the guys at the podium.

Neither am I the Russian Government's sports minister, who said the anti "gay propaganda" law would be strictly enforced during the Olympics and at all times involving everyone. Talk about creating headaches for yourself.

Still, the law is vague enough to include this kiss but arbitrary enough to ignore it. There's no actual way to know what the law says or means, not with any reasonable expectations. Welcome to Russia, the worst Olympic Games host government in history.

We still don't know whether anything will come of this puckering up because of the law itself and due to selective enforcement. Maybe the new law isn't going to apply to Russians and will affect foreigners only.

Who knows?

A Kiss Between 2 Athletes On A Moscow Podium Has Brought More Attention To Russia's 'Gay Propaganda' Law

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/kiss-in-moscow-leads-to-controversy-2013-8#ixzz2cOr23H00

A podium kiss in Moscow has led to further attention being shone on Russia's harsh new homosexuality laws.

Russian runners Kseniya Ryzhova and Tatyana Firova kissed on the podium after winning the 4x400 meter relay at the World Athletics Championships in Moscow.

According to Sky News, sources in the Russia team camp are downplaying the incident, saying it was simply a celebration and there were no politics involved.

It's the latest twist in a controversy that is only likely to get worse.

Judging by the looks of the other two team mates . . . They are both looking like oh no you just didn't.

[Publicus]

The plot thickens. Something for the heterosexual men:

176699060.jpg.CROP.article568-large.jpg

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/08/18/kseniya_ryzhova_and_tatyana_firova_russian_athletes_kiss_on_winners_podium.html

Just a victory kiss or a protest kiss?

You decide.

At the World Athletics Championships in Moscow, August 17.

Anyone who actually believes there isn't going to be ALL kinds of visible protest (ambiguous and not ambiguous) against Putin's anti-gay policies at Sochi, I've got a bridge to sell you.

BTW, it is STILL possible for the games to be moved to Vancouver.

This happened just the other day during the World Athletics Championships currently underway in Moscow. And the two athletes are Russian besides.

The Russian officials of the team are playing down the kiss, saying it is just a celebratory moment.

I don't know. It looks to me like more than a celebratory kiss. But then I dunno. And who does know? I mean, whatever happened to the good old fashioned effusive Russian bear hug? But maybe that's just for the guys at the podium.

Neither am I the Russian Government's sports minister, who said the anti "gay propaganda" law would be strictly enforced during the Olympics and at all times involving everyone. Talk about creating headaches for yourself.

Still, the law is vague enough to include this kiss but arbitrary enough to ignore it. There's no actual way to know what the law says or means, not with any reasonable expectations. Welcome to Russia, the worst Olympic Games host government in history.

We still don't know whether anything will come of this puckering up because of the law itself and due to selective enforcement. Maybe the new law isn't going to apply to Russians and will affect foreigners only.

Who knows?

A Kiss Between 2 Athletes On A Moscow Podium Has Brought More Attention To Russia's 'Gay Propaganda' Law

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/kiss-in-moscow-leads-to-controversy-2013-8#ixzz2cOr23H00

A podium kiss in Moscow has led to further attention being shone on Russia's harsh new homosexuality laws.

Russian runners Kseniya Ryzhova and Tatyana Firova kissed on the podium after winning the 4x400 meter relay at the World Athletics Championships in Moscow.

According to Sky News, sources in the Russia team camp are downplaying the incident, saying it was simply a celebration and there were no politics involved.

It's the latest twist in a controversy that is only likely to get worse.

Judging by the looks of the other two team mates . . . They are both looking like oh no you just didn't.

And the right arm and hand cupping the back of the head and neck, it's just such an...an... an athletic move.

[rubin]

It seems, Rubin, that things are changing in Russia and some of the local folks don't like living in the closet. It seems that artists also like to sing about the things that others don't care for.

You can blame those silly Pussies and you can blame those awful gay parades, but I don't think the clock of time is going to start running backwards.

You might want to befriend North Korea. They seem to have a better handle on dealing with these decadent Western customs and ideas.

You might want to befriend North Korea.

Thank you, "I" don't want to be a North Korea's friend, you can ask this question to the Russian government directly, if it wants to be a friend with the North Korea. The representative of the Russian government is in the Embassy.

And about the backwards ticking clocks which you are talking about - time will tell. The Western economy is in the recession however the Russian is doing pretty well.

[Credo]

Sorry, Rubin, if I sound harsh. But first, not everything is dependent on the economy.

Eventually, Russians will learn that someone they know, someone they are related to and someone that they care about is gay. Once the closet doors open, it's pretty hard to close them.

In spite of how this thread may sound, I doubt that people have ill-will toward the Russian people. I think most just want to see gays treated in a fair and equitable manner.

[sustento]

The plot thickens. Something for the heterosexual men:

176699060.jpg.CROP.article568-large.jpg

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/08/18/kseniya_ryzhova_and_tatyana_firova_russian_athletes_kiss_on_winners_podium.html

Just a victory kiss or a protest kiss?

You decide.

At the World Athletics Championships in Moscow, August 17.

Anyone who actually believes there isn't going to be ALL kinds of visible protest (ambiguous and not ambiguous) against Putin's anti-gay policies at Sochi, I've got a bridge to sell you.

BTW, it is STILL possible for the games to be moved to Vancouver.

This happened just the other day during the World Athletics Championships currently underway in Moscow. And the two athletes are Russian besides.

The Russian officials of the team are playing down the kiss, saying it is just a celebratory moment.

I don't know. It looks to me like more than a celebratory kiss. But then I dunno. And who does know? I mean, whatever happened to the good old fashioned effusive Russian bear hug? But maybe that's just for the guys at the podium.

It's not as if there's a long tradition of kissing in Russia and the other Slavic nations. There goes that context thingy again..

[F430murci]

The plot thickens. Something for the heterosexual men:

176699060.jpg.CROP.article568-large.jpg

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/08/18/kseniya_ryzhova_and_tatyana_firova_russian_athletes_kiss_on_winners_podium.html

Just a victory kiss or a protest kiss?

You decide.

At the World Athletics Championships in Moscow, August 17.

Anyone who actually believes there isn't going to be ALL kinds of visible protest (ambiguous and not ambiguous) against Putin's anti-gay policies at Sochi, I've got a bridge to sell you.

BTW, it is STILL possible for the games to be moved to Vancouver.

This happened just the other day during the World Athletics Championships currently underway in Moscow. And the two athletes are Russian besides.

The Russian officials of the team are playing down the kiss, saying it is just a celebratory moment.

I don't know. It looks to me like more than a celebratory kiss. But then I dunno. And who does know? I mean, whatever happened to the good old fashioned effusive Russian bear hug? But maybe that's just for the guys at the podium.

It's not as if there's a long tradition of kissing in Russia and the other Slavic nations. There goes that context thingy again..

That is disturbing. Something about the sprinter girls photo is much more pleasing.

[Credo]

Being gay in Russia apparently has something to do with using the tongue.

[rubin]

Credo. That's OK, no problems. I cannot disagree with you, LGBT society deserves a better faith in Russia.

Sustento - nice pics. Yes, Brezhnev liked to French kiss his friends. His unforgettable kiss with Erich Honeker leader of the former GDR was even immortalized on a Berlin wall

[Jingthing]

And now ... brace yourself ... book banning.

As if we are surprised.

Labeling the book "gay propaganda," Lelikov is demanding that the publication be removed from stores. He's also calling on law enforcement to penalize the stores that feature the non-fiction text.

The Russian-language book Lelikov is taking issue with -- GAYS. They Changed The World by Viktoriya Degtyareva -- pays tribute to prominent LGBT icons from Elton John to Oscar Wilde.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/17/gay-history-book-russia-saratov-removal-bookstores_n_3773477.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

Why not a BONFIRE?

[jamhar]

Its coming Jt, just wait for it.

They have to do something with all those books, right?

The is brewing one hot cup of joe!

Pull up a chair this is going to be some kinda show!

I seriously do not see where Putin is going with this

He cannot expect to win this vs the world, can he?

Could it be he's been nipping at his own coolaid too much?

Edit:

Before I thought no chance of the winter games being moved

Now, i'm not so sure..............

[LeCharivari]

(edited) ...

I find quite distasteful (and revealing) the unjust character assassination of a such a worthy man, Stephen Fry. The shameless dirt slinging about "self hating Jew" and his MEDICAL ISSUES are so inflammatory and so IRRELEVANT that it does not dignify any kind of reply.It kind of reminds me of an American presidential election campaign.

Dudes, if you don't agree with Stephen Fry ... fine.

It is so cheap to attack this man so personally.

....

Far from NOT "dirt slinging" these are things Stephen Fry is PROUD of and talks about regularly. Far from hiding his "MEDICAL ISSUES" he makes a point of them, and won an EMMY for his documentary Stephen Fry: the Secret Life of the Manic Depressive. He has consistently stated loathing of Jews, who he says "have stored up more misery for mankind in the history of the planet, and they're doing it to this day" * - in fairness I should add that he has also stated very strongly that the Catholic Church (and religion generally) is "Not a force for good".

What particularly impresses me about Stephen Fry, and is particularly relevant to this thread, is how he has the courage to say that his view on a boycott of Sochi has changed as a result of the Tweets he has received from Russian gays - he has 6,000,000 (yes, that's SIX MILLION) followers so his is not only a particularly powerful voice (not many have a private meeting with the PM to discuss their views on Sochi**) but it is also a particularly well informed one.

It is unfortunate that others do not seem to have such an open mind.

* http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aX4nlBBH8ng

** http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2013/08/18/david-cameron-stephen-fry-and-evgeny-lebedev-attend-private-drinks-days-after-sochi-concerns-raised/

[LeCharivari]

can anybody explain to me <deleted> is this ominous "gay propaganda" supposed to be? I just don't get it, but maybe it's just me?

Whatever the authorities say it means.

For example, signs saying "Gay Is Normal"

The demonstration where this was filmed, where demonstrators were arrested for public protest as they would have been for making similar illegal protests at Whitehall or the Capitol, was BEFORE the recent legislation was passed.

[Jingthing]

The demonstration where this was filmed, where demonstrators were arrested for public protest as they would have been for making similar illegal protests at Whitehall or the Capitol, was BEFORE the recent legislation was passed.

From the youtube link:

Before the anti-gay vote, rights activists attempted to hold a "kissing rally" outside the State Duma, located across the street from Red Square in central Moscow, but they were attacked by hundreds of Orthodox Christian activists and members of pro-Kremlin youth groups. The mostly burly young men with closely cropped hair pelted the activists with eggs, shouting obscenities and homophobic slurs at them.

Riot police moved in, detaining more than two dozen protesters, almost all of them gay rights activists. Some who were not detained were beaten by masked men on another central street.

My opinion of your post was that you were implying it was some kind of grand deception in the Huff Post piece, that the video had no relation to the spoken news story. In reality, the video DID relate to the story.

You know, let's face some FACTS here. I know the love for FACTS here. The toxic homophobia in Russia is not only about these specific laws. It already existed. There are other laws that can be used to oppress gays there even without these new specific laws.

[Jingthing]

Far from NOT "dirt slinging" these are things Stephen Fry is PROUD of and talks about regularly.

My original comments stand. Dirt slinging character assassination directed at Fry about stuff that has NOTHING to do with these issues related to Russia (his views on religion which you grossly distorted out of context but that is really off topic too), his mental health struggles, etc. Nice try though trying to act like that wasn't done. In my opinion, it was done.

[Jingthing]

The discussion about how to react to Putin's anti-gay wave in Russia and how it relates to Sochi continues to grow in visibility on the world stage:

Russia’s anti-gay law brings controversy ahead of 2014 Sochi Olympics

Former U.S. congressman Tom McMillen, a Rhodes scholar and 1972 Olympian, said he felt strongly that athletes in Sochi have a forum for dissenting with the Russian law.

“The opportunity to express themselves as athletes should not be discouraged or grounds for disqualification,” McMillen said. “I think there should be an avenue for self-expression.”

Norman Bellingham, former chief executive of the U.S. Olympic Committee and a gold-medal canoeist at the 1988 Games in Seoul, said he hopes the world’s media will shine a light on the unpleasant issues of the upcoming Sochi Games — particularly anything that flouts the Olympic ideals of friendship, solidarity and fair play.

“It can’t just be ‘friendship and solidarity except for gay people,’ ” Bellingham said. “Just because nothing happened to Jews in Germany in 1936 [when Berlin hosted the Summer Games] didn’t mean that all was well in the Nazi state. The endorsement of that government should not have been given implicitly by the Olympic movement. You have to be very careful about that. You can’t turn too much of a blind eye.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/olympics/russias-anti-gay-law-brings-controversy-ahead-of-2014-sochi-olympics/2013/08/18/b42b5182-076f-11e3-9259-e2aafe5a5f84_story.html

[Jingthing]

This is about Russia, mate.

This is about a NATIONAL anti-gay propaganda law, mate. In RUSSIA.

One that passed without even ONE vote opposing.

No comparison to the provincial trivialities you mention that aren't even in Russia.

[Jingthing]

Gay Pride in Prague. Putin Shows His Gay Face.

[Publicus]

(edited)

Yes, you need to know more. Some facts, for instance.

I think we ALL need to know more, and we would ALL do well to consider the facts, particularly if something we say is factually incorrect.

A few facts, all of which I can verify and some of which I have given links to, and all of which are relevant to the law and the Winter Olympics, are as follows:

No one has ever been charged in Russia just for wearing a rainbow pin 1, or waving a rainbow flag.

No one has ever been charged in Russia just for the clothes they wear, 2 including gays who have attended rallies deliberately wearing wedding dresses to provoke such a reaction.

All male ice dancers, gay or straight, including Russians, wear clothing similar to that ascribed to Johnny Weir. 3 His costumes are completely "normal" by those standards.

The "propaganda" law is considerably less "vague" than a number of laws in the USA involving "moral turpitude" 4 , which even extends to acts done in private which constitute "conduct that is considered contrary to community standards of justice, honesty or good morals."

A number of athletes competing at the IAAF World Championships in Moscow have already competed wearing rainbow nail polish 5 - no action was taken by the Russian authorities, and although the IAAF gave athletes a general warning of the rules they were allowed to compete wearing it.

After winning silver in the 800m at the IAAF World Championships Nick Symmonds did speak out in an uncensored televised interview on RIA Novosti saying: 6 "I believe that all humans deserve equality as however God made them ... Whether you're gay, straight, black, white, we all deserve the same rights." RIA Novosti is the Russian Information Agency, Russia's largest news agency, fully state owned. He was not arrested or jailed.

LGBT rights issues are regularly discussed in the Russian media and on Russian state TV and have been broadcast state wide at prime time 7

No main Russian LGBT groups I am aware of, such as the Russian LGBT Network or the LGBT Human Rights Project/Gayrussia.ru have asked for the games to be boycotted or moved, and many of the most prominent Russian gay activists such as Anton Krasovsky have come out in the strongest terms against a boycott of the Sochi games 8 :

"Russian gay people need international support, but international support is not a boycott of Sochi Olympic games, because Olympic games is an international event. It's not a Russian event, it's not a personal event of Putin, it's an event of millions and millions of people ... 7 million people in Russia are gay. If you want to boycott Olympic games in Russia, you're trying to boycott 7 million gay people in Russia. You want to boycott me."

1 & 2 Sorry, I can't provide links to something that hasn't happened - if it had I think there would be some; some wearing rainbow items have been charged under public order acts for illegal demonstrations, but none for the items worn/carried

3 http://www.cbc.ca/sports-content/figureskating/opinion/2012/12/even-great-skaters-make-puzzling-costume-decisions.html

4 http://www.answers.com/topic/moral-turpitude?cat=biz-fin

5 http://www.thelocal.se/49682/20130816/

6 http://en.rian.ru/sports/20130813/182748399/In-Russia-American-Runner-Dedicates-Silver-Medal-to-Gay-Friends.html

7 http://www.ntv.ru/peredacha/

8 http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/08/15/anton-krasovsky-russian-tv-presenter-sacked-after-coming-out-as-gay-on-air_n_3760386.html

No opinions, no "bashing", just plain old facts

The facts are the Russian Government is threatening to arrest Olympic Games athletes, coaches, trainers, other staff, visitors-spectators, and media to put them in jail.

The threats are based on a new law against anything the Russian authorities would consider to be "gay propaganda" by anyone in Russia, anywhere in Russia, anytime, to include the whole of the visiting global athletic community which is going to Sochi Russia for the Winter Olympic Games in February.

Those are the facts.

It is also fact global news media are reporting this is the first known instance of a host government of an Olympic Games threatening - openly and menacingly - to throw in jail Olympic athletes and staff, visitors-spectators, media.

It appears to be shaping up as solid fact that the Russian Government is the worst host government of an Olympic Games in the history of the Modern Olympiad, which began in 1896.

Posts that assert none of the above have been arrested or incarcerated are insignificant tripe, I.e., facts that are not salient. They are off the core, central points made in this post.

Moreover the post above is irrelevant and immaterial to the fact no other host government of the Olympic Games has threatened to throw in jail, en masse if it decides, Olympic athletes and staff, visitors and media.

In short, the above post ignores the central fact the Russian Government is being run by a bunch of lunatics. That's fact.

I provided several links to support my facts.

Would you please do us the courtesy of producing some similar links to support yours that:

"the Russian Government is threatening to arrest Olympic Games athletes, coaches, trainers, other staff, visitors-spectators, and media to put them in jail." - ANY official government statement, rather than one made by an individual, will do.

"global news media are reporting this is the first known instance of a host government of an Olympic Games threatening - openly and menacingly - to throw in jail Olympic athletes and staff, visitors-spectators, media." - ANYTHING including the words "openly and menacingly" from any recognised "global news media" organisation such as the BBC, CNN, France 24, etc, would be nice, but failing that ANYTHING without those words from a similar organisation rather than an internet rag would do.

"no other host government of the Olympic Games has threatened to throw in jail, en masse if it decides, Olympic athletes and staff, visitors and media." ANY official government statement will do, but failing that anything by ANY member of the government connected with the games would do.

Pardon me, but you need to re-read the whole of the thread.

[Jingthing]

Before I thought no chance of the winter games being moved

Now, i'm not so sure..............

It's a very small chance. Russia would basically have to ask for them to be moved by more extremely offensive pronouncements about their plans at Sochi. That seems doubtful. They seem to know the dance on how far they can go.

[LeCharivari]

It seems, Rubin, that things are changing in Russia and some of the local folks don't like living in the closet. It seems that artists also like to sing about the things that others don't care for.

You can blame those silly Pussies and you can blame those awful gay parades, but I don't think the clock of time is going to start running backwards.

You might want to befriend North Korea. They seem to have a better handle on dealing with these decadent Western customs and ideas.

For Russian gays the "clock of time" is ALREADY "running backwards". and it has run back some twenty years to around 1993 when homosexuality was decriminalised.

At that time homosexuality was allowed as long as gays were seen but not heard, and preferably not seen either. Gays were very much still forced to live in the closet.

Things started to improve very slowly but very steadily - in 1996 the first LGBT rights organisation was formed, but it soon folded due to a lack of funding and interest. In 1999 being gay was no longer considered a mental disorder. Debates on LGBT rights and acceptance became a regular feature of Russian prime State TV. People started to at least tolerate gays, even if they did not accept yet them as "equals".

Then ONE Russian gay activist got involved and started to push the envelope, following the West's example and encouraged by Western activists, against the advice of other Russian gay activists. He organised the first Russian Pride in 2005/6 which was violently attacked when it went to the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier*. In 2009 the present law was rejected by the Duma by 360 votes to 90; three days later the same gay activist tried to push the envelope further by trying to register a gay marriage. He has regularly claimed personal responsibility for his "achievement" in politicising LGBT issues in Russia - at least until 2011/12 when it all started to go wrong and all the Russian LGBT groups he had led and the American gay groups that had financed and supported him withdrew their support.

The homophobia in Russia, by Western standards (and by mine), is totally unacceptable at every level. It is directed, discriminatory and violent - sometimes lethal. At Government and judicial level it is now directed at LGBT rights groups and activists through the "non-traditional sexual acts" propaganda laws (those arrested and charged under the local laws, some of which have been in force since 2006, have all been activists staging protests).

Gays are now, unquestionably, worse off than they were two decades ago, in the last millenia. I can't think of any other country where things have got worse, where the gay "clock" has run so far backwards, in such a short time.

Russian gays need our SUPPORT - what they do NOT need is our telling them what they should be doing or acting on their behalf. They've had a dose of that once before.

* http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/27/AR2006052701002.html

excerpt (from 2006 - rather prophetic):

"Homosexuality was decriminalized in Russia in 1993, but the gay community in Moscow remains largely underground. Some gay activists had objected to the parade, which was the culmination of a gay pride festival, saying it was likely to provoke a backlash that could damage efforts to build tolerance.

Other activists, backed by international supporters from the United States and Western Europe, decided to go ahead with the demonstration. Unable to march legally, they decided to place flowers at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier on Saturday afternoon but to act as individual citizens to avoid being charged with staging an illegal protest.

A phalanx of riot police sealed off Alexander's Garden where the tomb is located. Women singing hymns and skinheads jostled with the several dozen gay activists when they arrived.

Nikolai Alexeyev, a leading gay rights activist, was arrested at the monument. "This is a great victory, an absolute victory -- look at what's happening," he shouted as he was taken away."

(Please note: to avoid continued personal abuse clogging up this thread I will not be replying to those who indulge in name-calling; I will, of course, reply to anyone who thinks any requests from the name-caller are valid and who subsequently asks me to)

[Jingthing]

Anyone still think the persecuted gays of Russia don't want attention and PROTEST from the world?

https://www.facebook.com/brandedbysochi?fref=ts

Nobody is "telling" the Russian gays what to do! Not before, not now, not ever. That's an overblown red herring.

As far as exactly what that protest consists of, that is a work in progress both in Russia and internationally. Doing NOTHING is not an option. There will be diverse kinds of protest and resistance in Russia and internationally. There is no head of gay state in Russia or head of gay state internationally so anyone who thinks this can even POSSIBLY be a perfectly organized resistance movement is just tripping and not facing the political realities.

The gays of Russia are fortunate to have STRONG pro gay lobbies in much of the world (but not Thailand), including powerful world leaders on their side, such as American gay rights hero President Obama. In that sense they are much better off than the Jews of Germany in 1936 who lacked powerful world leader friends or even powerful foreign Jewish lobbies.

As dark as these days are for Russian gays, they would be even darker without a larger world out there that cares, is watching closely (and CAN watch closely thanks to the internet), and is ready for continued protest.

Yes, it's also time for gay friendly countries all over the world to openly welcome gay Russian refugees! In a similar way that the USA and Israel welcomed Russian Jews during the Save Soviet Jewry era.

[Publicus]

@LeCharivari

I'd already advised you I haven't the interest or the time to deal with your posts and your requests/demands.

This is true at the other thread you'd mentioned and at this one.

For example, you quote Olympian Nick Symmonds in part to serve your purposes, and you want me to track down sources already presented, full quotes already presented by Symmonds, to refute the particular bent you give by quoting Symmonds in part.

Sorry, I don't do controversialist polemics.

[Scott]

A number of contentious and off-topic posts have been deleted. If you don't want to participate in the thread there is no need to tell us. If you like a post, then use the like button.