Fake music police - Mae Rim

[Thighlander]

I would be curious to know how Youtube music would work. Or even www.archive.org, which is total free stuff, and some great live concerts. Says to play it all you want, just don't sell it.

[Sparkles]

I was in my Bangkok Bank branch this morning, near CM gate, and soft western rock tunes were playing in the background over speakers throughout the branch.

Would these thugs walk into a bank and make demands ? Later I had lunch at my favourite out of town restaurant,same situation, music playing for the enjoyment of customers.

So what is the difference to bars and inner city establishments ? apart for being closer to walk from one to the other making demands.

There is no way these criminals are music company reps .For a start companies don't have the manpower to snoop around.

I sincerely hope its gets sorted out ASAP, being in business in Thailand is hard enough.

[Chiengmaijoe]

I would be curious to know how Youtube music would work. Or even www.archive.org, which is total free stuff, and some great live concerts. Says to play it all you want, just don't sell it.

No matter what the source is, TV, Radio or anything else, playing music for people in a public space requires a licence. It's nothing to do with selling music.

Technically speaking, a whistling waiter requires a licence!

Edited August 16, 2013 by Chiengmaijoe

[eyecatcher]

That was my tack last time, ask them questions in english of course and accept nothing that is photocopied, as said, official licencing authorities will do things fairly and approach with decorum not going off on a bender when they realise we are too clever for them.

Sent from my GT-I8160

[Ulysses G.]

Sorry, but I really cant swallow this story.

It has been going on for a long time - whether you believe it or not - and many of the business owners are Thais with totally legitimate businesses. I have known several owners who have paid fairly sizeable amounts of money because they were frightened of going to jail and there are reports of many more all over Thailand. These creeps have been arrested several times, but they just wait a little while and start up again.

[monty]

I thought the CM police assured us this problem group had left town???? Is this a new crew or is this the old crew with a new haircut?? If its the latter, they laid low for a few weeks and go back into their chosen profession, scamming.

Certainly gives you faith in the system that was intended to protect the honest people of the country. Not

Yeah , makes you wonder. When they take from honest people just trying to suport there familiy in a legal manor . No wonder so many thai's end up selling yaba and ice . It's much more lucrative than selling pati and somtam and spirits where you have overhead .

Two of the people have been identified The fat girl from Grammy and The English speaking well dressed Thai who organized the scam. I was able to get the licence numbers from two of the autos used as well, just have to find someone to run the plates for identification.

None of this makes any sense.

6 people turn up unannounced at a business. What sort of business is it? A bar, a restaurant or what? Who actually owns it?

They walk into a kitchen and steal a laptop computer. Then these people who refuse to show any identification or clarification of whom and what they represent, take the owner to a police station, which in my book, unless officially arrested and have the powers to arrest, amounts to kidnapping.

Meanwhile while at the police station the police do nothing, except threaten to throw the so-called female owner in jail, and the said woman asks for 25000 baht (for god knows what?) and the alleged owner pays without question and without acquiring a receipt. Doesn’t even make a request for a lawyer to be present.

The OP alleges that the owner, who was sitting alone, no customers in the shop of whatever business this is, had to deal with it. But these people said; THEY were illegally playing music licensed by Grammy, according to the OP`s statement? Who are THEY? And what is the OP`s part in this? Because the OP stated that he could not obtain any identification from these people, which means he must have been on the scene. So how could the owner have been alone with no customers in the shop, unless the owner and the OP are one of the same or he was there at the time? If the OP was on the scene, in what capacity was he there for? And why is he involved?

The police are alleged to have threatened to throw the owner (whoever the real owner is?) in jail. Throw into jail for what, why and on whose authority?

So to place all this into perspective, 6 thugs walk into a business premises, steal a computer, kidnap the owner who was allegedly alone and then taken to a police station, threatened with instant jail if she does not pay 25000 baht to some unknown woman who has no evidence that a criminal act has been committed, and pays without having a lawyer present, without receiving a receipt and nothing is officially recorded.

If I were a legitimate business owner and had not committed any offence, and 6 people walked in, stole my computer and tried to take me away somewhere with them, I would be calling the police saying that I am under attack from unknown intruders or even put up a hell of a struggle before I went off with them. Anybody in their right minds would do the same if suddenly finding themselves in that situation, unless there is something extremely dodgy going on.

Sorry, but I really can’t swallow this story.

The OP does paint a sordid picture of the BiB and I simply don`t believe it. Perhaps these so-called music police are the genuine article and the said business owner (will the real owner stand up please?) really did commit an offence, and if this business has a farang financial backer but not in name, than he has no authority or power to officially represent the business. THIS IS THE LAW. If this is the case? Anyone or certain people that take matters into their own hands and try to bypass going via official channels to have this sorted, will find themselves in a lot of trouble, well in the do dars right over their heads.

If you seriously believe that publishing a video on Utube is going to scare these people off and solve the problem, than you’re living in cloud cuckoo land. Plus keeping in mind Thailand`s strict defamation laws, so you had better have your facts right before you upload any videos.

My advice is; first get your house in order, then hold a meeting with the police by appointment and negotiate how to solve this problem with them. You will be pleasantly surprised how accommodating and helpful the police can be if the correct procedures are followed. Otherwise these so-called business owners will always be ripe for intimidation and extortion. And quite frankly, I have no sympathies at all.

May the force be with you.

Unfortunately it happens exactly like you describe again and again, with Pattaya, Phuket and Chiang Mai being the preferred playgrounds of those thugs.

In general, they know they can get away with a lot because:

1) Thai people are generally very bad at standing up against any (perceived) authority.

2) They target places where the chance is high that management is not clued up in legal mumbo jumbo. Meaning often wives of foreigners (where they know the foreigner can be dangerous to them but is not allowed to meddle due to lack of work permit), smallish karaoke's, massage places etc. So they prey on the weak, both their own and on foreigners.

2) Once they get them into a police station, have 10's of thousands worth of equipment confiscated, along with the threat of jail time, money usually will be produced. Pay the BiB their share, and it's big time payday again.

[monty]

A genuine licence for practically all the music you are likely to play would be 10,000 b per year for most places mentioned here. If you're not playing Thai music you're almost certainly covered. if you look at the FAQ page you can see that playing any music in public, including from a radio or TV requires a licence. BTW, not playing or having Thai music in the bar/restaurant would also get rid of these guys because they are invariably pretending to represent a company that only has rights to Thai artists.

http://www.mpcmusic.co.th/en/index.php?menu=tariff

On the Thai music, not necessarily so. In Pattaya a while ago, a group purportedly representing KT Publishing, one of the 4 copyright owners of foreign music (for a whopping 65 songs in their case, the big majority is owned by MPCmusic), went round the Farang bars with the same scam.

The majority were frightened into paying eventhough they likely did not even own any of those 65 songs...

[Johpa]

What is odd is that this happened in Mae Rim, a rather middle class town by Thai standards that has a large resident population of bureaucrats working in both the neighboring Provincial government offices, army offices, and Border Police offices. Hit up the wrong person and such a scheme could easily backfire.

[Beetlejuice]

Sorry, but I really cant swallow this story.

It has been going on for a long time - whether you believe it or not - and many of the business owners are Thais with totally legitimate businesses. I have known several owners who have paid fairly sizeable amounts of money because they were frightened of going to jail and there are reports of many more all over Thailand. These creeps have been arrested several times, but they just wait a little while and start up again.

Please let me try to explain my posts in a way that even you may understand.

Firstly, I do not doubt that these criminal gangs of scammers and extortionists exist and are using bully tactics in order to obtain money from their victims.

What I am questioning is the legalities and credibility of the many business owners involved, therefore, because the said businesses and establishments have not been created and run strictly according to Thai law, they become ripe for extortion by these criminal gangs and perhaps by corrupt police officers.

I also find it difficult to believe that LEGITIMATE business owners, Thai or foreign, could be literally robbed, kidnapped, taken to a police station and indefinitely thrown into a jail without officially being arrested and charged of any crime and then held to ransom until they cough up with a huge some of money. If this were happening nationwide on a large scale, there would be an outrage.

Again I will say; as I have said many times in the past here on Thai visa, always keep a low profile and stay within the boundaries of the law in Thailand if you want to enjoy your time and live in peace here. Otherwise however which way those of you run your businesses here, you do so at your own risk and discretion.

It`s that simple.

[Ulysses G.]

What I am questioning is the legalities and credibility of the many business owners involved, therefore, because the said businesses and establishments have not been created and run strictly according to Thai law, they become ripe for extortion by these criminal gangs and perhaps by corrupt police officers.

You have said several times, in this very thread, that you do not believe these reports, but, as I have said before, I know several very successful, LEGITIMATE businesses run by THAIS that have been victims of these con-artists. They do not just target foreigners or people who are skirting the laws.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Ulysses G.

[Beetlejuice]

What I am questioning is the legalities and credibility of the many business owners involved, therefore, because the said businesses and establishments have not been created and run strictly according to Thai law, they become ripe for extortion by these criminal gangs and perhaps by corrupt police officers.

You have said several times, in this very thread, that you do not believe these reports, but, as I have said before, I know several very successful, LEGITIMATE businesses run by THAIS that have been victims of these con-artists. They do not just target foreigners or people who are skirting the laws.

Wrong.

I said; that this story is not credible or there is much more to this than what has been described in the OP? Meaning the statements made by the OP, not that these gangs don`t exist.

I still say that the OP`s tale of woe is not credible.

i have already given good advice on how he should deal with the situation and this also applies to all the other business owners including the ones you mention.

Otherwise what else would you prefer to hear?

[Bodrules]

So what would the consequences be of telling these idiots thieves to sling their hook?

A beating?

Harassment by bought police?

[wolf5370]

So what would the consequences be of telling these idiots thieves to sling their hook?

A beating?

Harassment by bought police?

From what I've heard it usually just threats - they often have a cop with them. However, people that have refused to hand over equipment, being searched or accompanying them to a police station (it was just once specific cop shop last time so I heard - with the cop their part of the extortion), have not suffered for it other than loud threats - eventually holding the line, they sod off of their own volition - they are con artists, not muggers. They'll just try the next place.

Best response is to refuse search/confiscation and simply tell them to see you in court on their threats - it is civil and not criminal anyway, so even if they were real people (and real people have no right of confiscation etc so don't try - just hand out a writ in the hopes that you'll just buy a license instead).

[Beetlejuice]

So what would the consequences be of telling these idiots thieves to sling their hook?

A beating?

Harassment by bought police?

From what I've heard it usually just threats - they often have a cop with them. However, people that have refused to hand over equipment, being searched or accompanying them to a police station (it was just once specific cop shop last time so I heard - with the cop their part of the extortion), have not suffered for it other than loud threats - eventually holding the line, they sod off of their own volition - they are con artists, not muggers. They'll just try the next place.

Best response is to refuse search/confiscation and simply tell them to see you in court on their threats - it is civil and not criminal anyway, so even if they were real people (and real people have no right of confiscation etc so don't try - just hand out a writ in the hopes that you'll just buy a license instead).

If a business is legitimate and not breaking any laws, then is attacked by a bunch of thugs trying the shout the odds, the owner and his/her staff are legally entitled to defend themselves and their business.

For example, imagine these goons trying to play the same game with a branch of Tesco Express or a seven eleven or any of the well established companies? Their asses would be kicked, arrested and locked up in a police cell before they had a chance to say; WTH is happening here? I would like to see them try this out on some of the clubs in Chiang Mai Land. I doubt whether they would survive long enough for the police to arrive and arrest them, or even if these mafia owned establishments would bother bringing the police into the matter at all.

The owner would be well within his/her rights to have the crap kicked out of these people on or off the premises IF UNDER ATTACK. I can assure the owners that the police would be on their side. And this is why I stress the point that the so-called business owners must first get their houses in order so as to be able to maintain legal control and establish a system of security and strategy against thuggery and any types of assaults and attacks against their businesses. This is the professional approach to the problem.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Beetlejuice

[Gonzo the Face]

B J if all of what you say is true...... why don't you use your special connectiion to ascertain what happened to the last bunch that was arrested a couple months ago..... Arrested for public recognition, bailed out ..... dissapeared and nothing was ever done. Just another bump under the rug.

If there was enough cause/evidence to arrest the last group, what was the legal end result?

Fine ???

Jail Time????

or just wait til the story cools down then come back and start again

[Loaded]

Beetlejuice is still convinced the Thai police uphold and enforce the law with an even hand. His stepson, the Thai policeman, tells him this so it must be true.

I have personal experience of police officers from Mae Rim police station. The OP sounds realistic imo.

Edited August 18, 2013 by Loaded

[Ulysses G.]

This is not just happening to small-time operators. There is a huge restaurant right at Thapae Gate and the Thai owner owns several other very successful businesses around town. She was one of the first victims of these crooks the last time around. In fact, a constant steam of patsies with all different kinds of businesses were brought to one police station and threatened in the lobby and it went on for weeks.

The only reason that these swindlers have backed off is because Pim from Citylife publicized what they were up to. If this continues, I hope that she will become involved again.

[mesquite]

So have these guys hit Starbucks, McDonald's, Holiday Inn, Amora, Wawee Coffee? All legit businesses. How about the many shops at Kad Suen Kaew?

My guess is BJ has it right. They target businesses who might be reluctant to pursue the matter through legal channels due to their own house not being in order.

I'm waiting for a senior manager at McDonald's to post how they hit his/her place. Ain't gonna happen.

Edited August 18, 2013 by mesquite

[jackr]

For example, imagine these goons trying to play the same game with a branch of Tesco Express or a seven eleven or any of the well established companies? Their asses would be kicked, arrested and locked up in a police cell before they had a chance to say; WTH is happening here? I would like to see them try this out on some of the clubs in Chiang Mai Land. I doubt whether they would survive long enough for the police to arrive and arrest them, or even if these mafia owned establishments would bother bringing the police into the matter at all.

Man, listen to yourself, are you like churning this out in your sleep?

That is not because said company might be legit, it is all to do with power and probably being owned by some heavy in the second instance. I bet there are many clubs in CM Land that are not up to speed regards the music laws, but by your reckoning they should be targetting them, too. It is all to do with who is likely to capitulate and not backed by some bigwig, it has eff all to do with who is legitimate. Stroll on!

[Ulysses G.]

They have hit a number of legitimate businesses. That is a fact. Legitimate businesses does not just cover large chains.

[monty]

Sorry, but I really cant swallow this story.

It has been going on for a long time - whether you believe it or not - and many of the business owners are Thais with totally legitimate businesses. I have known several owners who have paid fairly sizeable amounts of money because they were frightened of going to jail and there are reports of many more all over Thailand. These creeps have been arrested several times, but they just wait a little while and start up again.

Please let me try to explain my posts in a way that even you may understand.

Firstly, I do not doubt that these criminal gangs of scammers and extortionists exist and are using bully tactics in order to obtain money from their victims.

What I am questioning is the legalities and credibility of the many business owners involved, therefore, because the said businesses and establishments have not been created and run strictly according to Thai law, they become ripe for extortion by these criminal gangs and perhaps by corrupt police officers.

I also find it difficult to believe that LEGITIMATE business owners, Thai or foreign, could be literally robbed, kidnapped, taken to a police station and indefinitely thrown into a jail without officially being arrested and charged of any crime and then held to ransom until they cough up with a huge some of money. If this were happening nationwide on a large scale, there would be an outrage.

Again I will say; as I have said many times in the past here on Thai visa, always keep a low profile and stay within the boundaries of the law in Thailand if you want to enjoy your time and live in peace here. Otherwise however which way those of you run your businesses here, you do so at your own risk and discretion.

It`s that simple.

Do you actually read international news sources?

I also find it difficult to believe that LEGITIMATE business owners, Thai or foreign, could be literally robbed, kidnapped, taken to a police station and indefinitely thrown into a jail without officially being arrested and charged of any crime and then held to ransom until they cough up with a huge some of money. If this were happening nationwide on a large scale, there would be an outrage.

If in the above part from your post you simply replace LEGITIMATE business owners with TOURISTS, then yes it is happening, on a very wide scale mainly in Pattaya and Phuket.

This is exactly what the jet ski scammers are doing. All the way up to the police station and indeed "kidnapping to police" station, threats of arrest and jail.

For damage not done by the jet sky renters, and extortionate repair prices. The tourists are doing nothing illegal either, apart from renting a jet ski where existing damage was hidden with fast dissolving water paint, after which they are getting massively charged for a 2000 Baht repair, for which previously maybe 20 other tourists already paid extortionate prices.

Only reason that it made the worldwide press is because it involves tourists who do not keep their mouth shut about what happened.

And it continues unabated even after a delegation of diplomats descended on Phuket asking the local government to crack down on such scams.

It also made the local press, as the journo's realized such things are very damaging to tourism and hence revenue for Thailand.

The music license scam is not or seldom making the press, for it does very little if any damage at all to tourism. This is the hidden corruption to the outside world of which maybe 5% surfaces, as the majority simply absorbs the financial damage and learn their lessons.

As I said, the majority of businesses targeted are Thais (which is why we do not hear that much about it, apart from when a foreigner is somehow involved).

Many of them are legal, some will not be in order knowingly, some will be not in order due to lack of knowledge or bad advice by shoddy lawyers!

Even if they are not in order, does that give the scammers the right to hit them, even with the cooperation of some bent cops?

The problem is many people, both foreign and Thai, will simply assume if the proceedings are moved to the police station, things must be handled correctly.

Well, they ain't. No search warrants, no official arrests, no proper paperwork and all of the "fines" disappear into the pockets of the scammers and the bent cops.

You are almost stating that said businesses deserve to get scammed! They don't, they do deserve to get handled legally, so that any fines end up where they belong, with the Thai government!

And with a fair chance for a defence and court case.

[wolf5370]

So what would the consequences be of telling these idiots thieves to sling their hook?

A beating?

Harassment by bought police?

From what I've heard it usually just threats - they often have a cop with them. However, people that have refused to hand over equipment, being searched or accompanying them to a police station (it was just once specific cop shop last time so I heard - with the cop their part of the extortion), have not suffered for it other than loud threats - eventually holding the line, they sod off of their own volition - they are con artists, not muggers. They'll just try the next place.

Best response is to refuse search/confiscation and simply tell them to see you in court on their threats - it is civil and not criminal anyway, so even if they were real people (and real people have no right of confiscation etc so don't try - just hand out a writ in the hopes that you'll just buy a license instead).

If a business is legitimate and not breaking any laws, then is attacked by a bunch of thugs trying the shout the odds, the owner and his/her staff are legally entitled to defend themselves and their business.

For example, imagine these goons trying to play the same game with a branch of Tesco Express or a seven eleven or any of the well established companies? Their asses would be kicked, arrested and locked up in a police cell before they had a chance to say; WTH is happening here? I would like to see them try this out on some of the clubs in Chiang Mai Land. I doubt whether they would survive long enough for the police to arrive and arrest them, or even if these mafia owned establishments would bother bringing the police into the matter at all.

The owner would be well within his/her rights to have the crap kicked out of these people on or off the premises IF UNDER ATTACK. I can assure the owners that the police would be on their side. And this is why I stress the point that the so-called business owners must first get their houses in order so as to be able to maintain legal control and establish a system of security and strategy against thuggery and any types of assaults and attacks against their businesses. This is the professional approach to the problem.

I don't know about this group of copycats - but the original lot arrested last year had a senior plod from Hang Dong that went around with them. Its a lot harder to kick out a real police officer with a side arm and a right to use it. Much safer just to repeat "No" to search and seizure, telling them to see you in court, and call the police/or any authoritive contact loudly in front of them - this has worked in the past.

They pick and choose who to pick on I'd guess. There are bars with connections to high up BiBs and politicians here, I doubt they would be touched (nor mafia connected either) - this is why lots of farang bars are hit and ones out of town where hi-so's are unlikely to be owners.

I wonder if KSR is manufacturing Grammy and other certificates/licenses that can be hung on the wall to deter them.