Ghosts in Buddhism?

[ChrisB87]

Hi guys,

So where does this Thai Buddhist belief in ghosts come from?

Anyone know?

Cheers!

[IMA_FARANG]

It's a Christian derived belief.

Haven't you ever heard of:

The Father, the Son. and the Holy Ghost?

(o.k. that's a joke).

[Commander Tamson]

I'd like to know any religions' take on ghosts.

The Thais, admittedly, seem to be obsessed with them, but there is nothing [that I have seen or read] where Buddhism even acknowledges the existence of such beings.

Very confusing - What happens when you die?:

Go to Paradise?

Go to Hell? (haven't seen hell mentioned in the teachings of Buddha either)

Get reborn?

Become a Ghost?

Hang around as a Ghost until a suitable body becomes available for your reincarnation?

Just fade away?

Answers on a postcard please

Edited August 17, 2013 by Commander Tamson

[Oishii]

Buddhists believe that you a reincarnated. I just hope I don't come back as a Thai bar girl.

Sex: The most fun you can have without laughing. Woody Allen.

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[fabianfred]

Theravada Buddhists believe that all beings existing in the cycle of death and rebirth are in one of 31 realms. We can only see the human and animal realm so often disbelieve the others. The four lower realms of suffering .... hells, hungry ghosts, demons, animals....and the higher realms above human including devas and brahma realms. Those seen as ghosts by Western culture are ones which are stuck between realms and have yet to take rebirth in the realm their karma dictates. This is often because of attachment to a person or place or possessions which means the being 'haunts' those...until they wake up to the fact.

Also devas can inhabit or reside in trees etc. for various reasons.

Beings like vampires or weretigers etc. are from the demon realm.

[fabianfred]

Buddhists believe that you a reincarnated. I just hope I don't come back as a Thai bar girl.

Buddhism teaches rebirth not reincarnation....a subtle difference, since we believe there is no permanent unchanging self such as a soul.

It is said that one who breaks the third precept (adultery) will be reborn a katoey for many lives then as a female for many lives before being able to be reborn male.

[Oishii]

That's me buggered then.

Sex: The most fun you can have without laughing. Woody Allen.

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[Commander Tamson]

Buddhists believe that you a reincarnated. I just hope I don't come back as a Thai bar girl.

Buddhism teaches rebirth not reincarnation....a subtle difference, since we believe there is no permanent unchanging self such as a soul.

It is said that one who breaks the third precept (adultery) will be reborn a katoey for many lives then as a female for many lives before being able to be reborn male.

It's a bit sexist is it not? What is so wrong with being born a woman; or are you saying that the unchanging self is already either male or female? In which case, is an adulteress reborn as a Tomboy for many lives? And then as a man for a few more?

Regardless - boy am I in trouble!

[fabianfred]

read again... no unchanging self... this means that there is no permanent soul but we are just a bag of bones. What goes from life to life could be termed a spirit but whatever it is it changes all the time...creating karma....using up karma...gaining knowledge...etc.

It seems sexist but it is certainly true that women suffer more than men...... pregnancy, childbirth, close attending and suckling, being classed as below males in many ages and societies. often having to leave home and family to go and live in the husbands house after marriage (and suffer a MIL who is never happy).

This often makes women more patient than men and they are more inclined to be religious and attend temples and meditation retreats than men (about four fifths here in Thailand).

[Thaddeus]

read again... no unchanging self... this means that there is no permanent soul but we are just a bag of bones. What goes from life to life could be termed a spirit but whatever it is it changes all the time...creating karma....using up karma...gaining knowledge...etc.

It seems sexist but it is certainly true that women suffer more than men...... pregnancy, childbirth, close attending and suckling, being classed as below males in many ages and societies. often having to leave home and family to go and live in the husbands house after marriage (and suffer a MIL who is never happy).

This often makes women more patient than men and they are more inclined to be religious and attend temples and meditation retreats than men (about four fifths here in Thailand).

Have you ever been in a relationship where copulation has been denied from lack of compliance?

[hawker9000]

read again... no unchanging self... this means that there is no permanent soul but we are just a bag of bones. What goes from life to life could be termed a spirit but whatever it is it changes all the time...creating karma....using up karma...gaining knowledge...etc.

It seems sexist but it is certainly true that women suffer more than men...... pregnancy, childbirth, close attending and suckling, being classed as below males in many ages and societies. often having to leave home and family to go and live in the husbands house after marriage (and suffer a MIL who is never happy).

This often makes women more patient than men and they are more inclined to be religious and attend temples and meditation retreats than men (about four fifths here in Thailand).

'Takes some thought to begin to grasp, esp. for westerners raised with the idea of "soul". I've read of it described in various ways. One as a flame which never goes out; just before the candle is used up another one is lit from the same flame. There's a certain continuity to the flame, but otherwise a constantly changing thing Another is as a vessel of water; it can be poured into another vessel of entirely different shape, color, etc., or even into the river or ocean. The water persists, but has very little relationship with any of the forms (containers or conditions) it used to be in. Still another is as a wave moving through the ocean. Constantly moving; constantly changing; relatively easy to spot in the moment, but except in the most remarkable cases pretty much nonexistent in terms of what can be observed about that same wave a few moments later.

ReBIRTH, not reincarnation. Reincarnation suggests memories, personality, tastes, abilities, etc., "being", brought forward from a previous life. Rebirh implies rather something more along the lines of a clean slate.

Regarding gender though, I'd read and heard that sex alternates with each successive rebirth. 'Never heard the bit about katoeys.

I guess there must be a lot about Buddhism that depends on which Buddhist form (school, sect....) you're talking about. Not sure exactly how much a Thai Theravada Buddhist has in common with a Buddhist in Tibet, or China, or India, or Japan beyond a knowledge of gothama buddha, cycle of death & rebirth, karma, a certain dhamma...

[willyumiii]

I've been told that the Thai's belief in ghosts comes not from Buddhism, but from Animism.

Animism is the reason for all of the spirit houses and other rituals tp appease the ghosts or "Pee"

Probably the most popular ghost in Thailand is the female head with intestines hanging from it that floats a few feet above the ground....see attachment.

Am I incorrect?

Edited August 18, 2013 by willyumiii

[sabaijai]

This often makes women more patient than men and they are more inclined to be religious and attend temples and meditation retreats than men (about four fifths here in Thailand).

In that case taking human life as a woman could be seen as a very positive thing.

[hawker9000]

I've been told that the Thai's belief in ghosts comes not from Buddhism, but from Animism.

Animism is the reason for all of the spirit houses and other rituals tp appease the ghosts or "Pee"

Probably the most popular ghost in Thailand is the female head with intestines hanging from it that floats a few feet above the ground....see attachment.thaigutzcolor.jpgthaigutzcolor.jpgthaigutzcolor.jpg

Am I incorrect?

Phi ('pee') Kra-sue

http://ghostsofthailand.com/Thai_Ghost_Types.html

"Probably the most feared ghost in Thailand the Kra-sue takes the form of a beautiful woman who glides along messmarising their prey. Often seen in long flowing dresses to hide the fact that they have no lower body, just a mass of internal organs and intestines suspended from their head. They are malicious and very dangerous spirit. It is rumoured that the Phi Kra-sue when alive ate something which, although looked delicious, was not cooked sufficiently and subsequently they were eaten away from their inside."

....so watch that street food!

[Oishii]

I think that's happening to me. I've been on the toilet more than off the past couple,of days.

Sex: The most fun you can have without laughing. Woody Allen.

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[ChrisB87]

Doesn't it seem like all these have characteristics which can be seen in people? Might it be that the scriptures are actually talking about certain aspects human nature, rather than actual ghosts? I think it may have bee taken too literally.

For example when it says something like, "As the Buddha was sitting...Mara appeared and tried to tempt the Buddha to...but the Buddha knowing that Mara is evil said no and then the spirit disappeared"

Please excuse the way i have it into my own words, but doesn't it seem that Mara is actually just another word for temptation or desire, rather than and actual ghost or spirit?

Just some food for thought

[lungmi]

All is in the mind. If you believe that there are ghosts there a ghosts.

If you don't believe that there are ghosts there are no ghosts.

The Teaching of the Buddha.

It's up to your level of understanding. Buddhism has the highest level of tolerance.

[hawker9000]

Many MANY Thais believe in ghosts outright... 'Will say that they've seen them and are quite fearful of them. It's not difficult to find websites devoted to ghosts in Thailand. The one I posted above was just one of many. The connection between Buddhist scripture and actual ghosts may be considered metaphorical by some, but I don't think so for most Thais.

[Chao Lao Beach]

Many "influential" and older Thais use ghost to scare people to get what they want, this includes school teachers.

[Commander Tamson]

Many "influential" and older Thais use ghost to scare people to get what they want, this includes school teachers.

I believe this has been the rule in every known religion throughout history and, as you say, still goes on today. Keep the masses ignorant (i.e. little or no eduction) and scare them with demons and a damned eternity, bleed them of the little wealth they have and thus increase your own power/domination!!

Why are the Muslims, even in this country, targeting schools?

[glegolo]

I'd like to know any religions' take on ghosts.

The Thais, admittedly, seem to be obsessed with them, but there is nothing [that I have seen or read] where Buddhism even acknowledges the existence of such beings.

Very confusing - What happens when you die?:

Go to Paradise?

Go to Hell? (haven't seen hell mentioned in the teachings of Buddha either)

Get reborn?

Become a Ghost?

Hang around as a Ghost until a suitable body becomes available for your reincarnation?

Just fade away?

Answers on a postcard please

Buddists are well aware of the concept of hell.... I found these paintings in several temples here in isaan and I did find also statues of the same motive in several temples....

Glegolo

[hawker9000]

The idea varies from one Buddhist form to another, but depending on which one you're talking about, ghosts might be a "karmic realm", "plane of existence", or something purely psychological. I believe most Thais subscribe to one of the first two. When you're reborn, ghost (or "hungry ghost") is one of the possibilities, along with animal or demon, etc. 'Surprised you haven't come across it in your reading in the context of rebirth. But I know it is more "complicated" than my simple reference above suggests. Look up "desire realm".

[ChrisB87]

I'd like to know any religions' take on ghosts.

The Thais, admittedly, seem to be obsessed with them, but there is nothing [that I have seen or read] where Buddhism even acknowledges the existence of such beings.

Very confusing - What happens when you die?:

Go to Paradise?

Go to Hell? (haven't seen hell mentioned in the teachings of Buddha either)

Get reborn?

Become a Ghost?

Hang around as a Ghost until a suitable body becomes available for your reincarnation?

Just fade away?

Answers on a postcard please

Buddists are well aware of the concept of hell.... I found these paintings in several temples here in isaan and I did find also statues of the same motive in several temples....

Glegolo

It's interesting how certain Buddhist concept have been perceived and how that has changed. Originally, people perceived hell as just a metaphor for suffering. (i.e. living in a realm of hell was a mental state, not an actual place).

But as Buddhism evolved, people started thinking that hell is an actual place where we go when we die. My girlfriend stands by this. Some wise people, however, still see that hell is just living in suffering.

Some Thai monks have taught this too (The Ajahn Chah and Ajahn Mun lineage is the ones i know of).

The same can be said about heaven. My girlfriend has been taught and believes that heaven (and hell) are places where we go after we die, not mental states/plains/realms of existence.

And by "die", she means it in the normal/literal sense, not in the Buddhist/philosophical sense (death and rebirth take place every moment within our physical and mental structures)

The actual death (at the end of our lives) is really of no concern.

Edited August 21, 2013 by ChrisB87

[IMA_FARANG]

Theravada Buddhists believe that all beings existing in the cycle of death and rebirth are in one of 31 realms. We can only see the human and animal realm so often disbelieve the others. The four lower realms of suffering .... hells, hungry ghosts, demons, animals....and the higher realms above human including devas and brahma realms. Those seen as ghosts by Western culture are ones which are stuck between realms and have yet to take rebirth in the realm their karma dictates. This is often because of attachment to a person or place or possessions which means the being 'haunts' those...until they wake up to the fact.

Also devas can inhabit or reside in trees etc. for various reasons.

Beings like vampires or weretigers etc. are from the demon realm.

---------------------

I defer to fqbianfred who as I recall once was ordained before he disrobed for personal reasons.

But just be aware that the idea of "realms' is not universally accepted in all Buddhist traditions.

And I am not a Theravada Buddhist.

I just prefer to say, "I really can't say one way or the other".

Incidentally, I once saw a wall mural in a Vietnamese Buddhist temple with a marvelous illustration of all the realms of the Buddhist "realms".

Wonderful artwork, if nothing else.

And they were not Theravada.

[ChrisB87]

Theravada Buddhists believe that all beings existing in the cycle of death and rebirth are in one of 31 realms. We can only see the human and animal realm so often disbelieve the others. The four lower realms of suffering .... hells, hungry ghosts, demons, animals....and the higher realms above human including devas and brahma realms. Those seen as ghosts by Western culture are ones which are stuck between realms and have yet to take rebirth in the realm their karma dictates. This is often because of attachment to a person or place or possessions which means the being 'haunts' those...until they wake up to the fact.

Also devas can inhabit or reside in trees etc. for various reasons.

Beings like vampires or weretigers etc. are from the demon realm.

I have certainly been living as a hungry ghost for quite some time.

I've been told that the Thai's belief in ghosts comes not from Buddhism, but from Animism.

Animism is the reason for all of the spirit houses and other rituals tp appease the ghosts or "Pee"

Probably the most popular ghost in Thailand is the female head with intestines hanging from it that floats a few feet above the ground....see attachment.thaigutzcolor.jpgthaigutzcolor.jpgthaigutzcolor.jpg

Am I incorrect?

Yes, i believe this is a common ghost depiction.

Isn't this the deadly female ghost who prays on men? I dare say, i was in a relationship with one of those before.

Edited August 21, 2013 by ChrisB87

[glegolo]

Thinking about it,,,,, really..... ghosts is a concept that goes back to the dawn of man.... way long before

Buddism came into play....

Ghosts starting to appear round the campfire with the hunters some 200.000 years ago.....

I think so at least... So forget about religion. religion is just pure copying life and stealing from it, nothing else....

Glegolo

[Commander Tamson]

Thinking about it,,,,, really..... ghosts is a concept that goes back to the dawn of man.... way long before

Buddism came into play....

Ghosts starting to appear round the campfire with the hunters some 200.000 years ago.....

I think so at least... So forget about religion. religion is just pure copying life and stealing from it, nothing else....

Glegolo

Don't know about the 200,000 years bit - not much documentation or archaeological evidence to back that up, but if you consider the Amazon tribes who believe in the Spirits of the Forest and have had no contact with the outside world, then maybe there is something to the ghost theory. On the other hand it may be something to do with the coco-leaf they chew before seeing these spirits!

BTW the temple-pictures of hell that you uploaded previously are great. All by the same artist obviously. I wonder where he got his inspiration [a certain Mr Dante springs to mind] . Do you remember which temple you saw them in? I'd be very interested in paying it a visit.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Commander Tamson

[glegolo]

Thinking about it,,,,, really..... ghosts is a concept that goes back to the dawn of man.... way long before

Buddism came into play....

Ghosts starting to appear round the campfire with the hunters some 200.000 years ago.....

I think so at least... So forget about religion. religion is just pure copying life and stealing from it, nothing else....

Glegolo

Don't know about the 200,000 years bit - not much documentation or archaeological evidence to back that up, but if you consider the Amazon tribes who believe in the Spirits of the Forest and have had no contact with the outside world, then maybe there is something to the ghost theory. On the other hand it may be something to do with the coco-leaf they chew before seeing these spirits!

BTW the temple-pictures of hell that you uploaded previously are great. All by the same artist obviously. I wonder where he got his inspiration [a certain Mr Dante springs to mind] . Do you remember which temple you saw them in? I'd be very interested in paying it a visit.

Yes I remember, I live here, it is in the Chaiyaphum area. I can show you that temple and we can go on a small trip 40 km up to the ridge of a high mountain there is also statues of the very same theme,, Really nice to see.

feel welcome to contact me whenever...

Glegolo

[lungmi]

To give a deep structure to the discussion I want to mention the basic religion of mankind, all human beings included:

Shamanism-Animism.

Australian Aborigines and Sibirian Jakuts, South American Indians, Canadian Inuits, Thai Hmongs and Farangs needing a

Crocodile certificated teashirt or a rear spoiler on their car (to fight the bad ghosts of the wind) have in their culture

anthropolitical DNA the same input.

[Choonpon]

Never say you don't believe in ghosts... you will take back your word somehow some day. Have heard many incidents of such.

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