Retirement extension income declaration.

[Suradit69]

Over the past few years I've shifted from using the Baht 800,000 in the bank method (although I always got an income affidavit too just to over-kill the matter) to a combination of money in the bank plus the income letter from the US Embassy. The shift is partly because having that much money in the bank here made it too easy to spend despite budgeting and partially because for awhile the low exchange rate made it seem preferable to draw down Baht bought at better rates.

The amount I declared on the affidavit that I presented to the US Embassy to be notarized has always been just pension and Social Security payments since they are made in regular monthly installments during the year and it's easy to get unambiguous, readily presentable support documentation for the amounts. Although I don't think I've ever been asked for "proof," of the amounts, I usually hand over the proof along with the embassy letter when applying for the annual extension. Sometimes they've kept it as part of the application package and sometimes they've handed it back to me.

I'll probably continue doing it this way, but have thought that I could add in investment income from dividends, etc and that would put me well over the Baht 65,000 a month minimum and obviate the need for a bank manager's letter, especially if some emergency caused the bank balance to be drawn down suddenly as the extension application date neared.

My dividend income is somewhat regular, but not the same amount every month, so I would have to average it to come up with a monthly amount, and the documentation would be a lot less straight forward if I were asked for proof by an Immigrations officer, but it would still be verifiable for the year-to-date leading up to the extension application.

Do most/many of you who use the embassy letter include various/all sources of income when coming up with totals or do you limit yourselves to sources that pay a regular easily confirmable monthly amount? I fully intend to only declare actual income received since there would be no purpose in me trying to exaggerate it, but I just wonder if some of you normally add investment income in with your employee pensions and regular government payments.

[ubonjoe]

I see no reason you can't do it that way. The rules say average income of 65K.

I have used a mixture of different income sources when using income affidavit before. Even savings can be factored in.

[Suradit69]

I see no reason you can't do it that way. The rules say average income of 65K. I have used a mixture of different income sources when using income affidavit before. Even savings can be factored in.

OK. Thanks. At least having that as a possibility means I can worry less about what my bank balance is when I get near to applying, although I'll probably still get the bank manager's letter to cover all bases.

[merijn]

This is not a problem as many declaration mentions the total year income which is then divided by 12 to get a average monthly income.

As long the total declaration and the supporting documents have the same balance.

Be aware they are asking for the supporting documents more often then in the past. ( but it is up to the officer as always )

[JLCrab]

Police Order 777/2551 at 'In the case of retirement' 2.22:

3) Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month;

The US Affidavit of Income for Retirement says:

I also affirm that I receive USD $ xxx every month from the United States Government and/or other sources.

There is no mention in either document of 'average' monthly income

[merijn]

Police Order 777/2551 at 'In the case of retirement' 2.22:

3) Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month;

The US Affidavit of Income for Retirement says:

I also affirm that I receive USD $ xxx every month from the United States Government and/or other sources.

There is no mention in either document of 'average' monthly income

Only a few of the countries use only the yearly income on their declaration as the USA does.

Even i saw many USA declarations with only a yearly income.

Most of them use both ( yearly and month average ) or only monthly income.

Therefore most of the officers are using the yearly income and divide this by 12.

This is at least my experience but some other officers / places can be more strict the monthly only income.

[wayned]

The US Income affidavit only has monthly income, there is no mention of yearly income. So is you saw yearly income, it was NOT on the Affidavit from the US embassy. Here is a copy of the US Income Affidavit form, mentions only monthly income: http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/root/pdfs/income_affidavit.pdf

[JLCrab]

Police Order 777/2551 at 'In the case of retirement' 2.22:

3) Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month;

The US Affidavit of Income for Retirement says:

I also affirm that I receive USD $ xxx every month from the United States Government and/or other sources.

There is no mention in either document of 'average' monthly income

Only a few of the countries use only the yearly income on their declaration as the USA does.

Even i saw many USA declarations with only a yearly income.

Most of them use both ( yearly and month average ) or only monthly income.

Therefore most of the officers are using the yearly income and divide this by 12.

This is at least my experience but some other officers / places can be more strict the monthly only income.

I did not write about my experience -- I only posted from the official documents.

The only thing that is consistent is what is printed in the document; what any 'competent' Immigration officer at any given Immigration office might do on any given day in evaluating the requirements for Extension of Stay is a variable.

[IMA_FARANG]

Yes.

What you are basically using is the "combination" method of verifying your income.

This can be used for a retirement extension/visa each year at renewal time.

Basically it is that your combined sources of income (pensions and bank account in Thailand combined) totals more than the 800K Thai Baht requirement,

In my particular case. I have roughly 500K Thai Baht in my Thai bank account which I use to live on in Thailand.

In addition I have Social Security (I also get an Social Security income letter from the SSA) just before Thai retirement visa/extension time.

That shows my Social Security monthly income.

And of course, I also use the U.S, embassy income declaration form.

So TOTAL annual income is about 1 million Thai baht annually, just over the 800K requirement.

I done that for my last two extension renewals ....in 2011 and2012,

Next one is due in October 2013 and I expect to use the same combination method this time in 2013 as well.

Although I have never been asked to provide "supporting evidence" for my embassy income statement .... immigration has always accepted the embassy income statement and my bank letter .... I've always had my Social Security monthly income statement with me just in case I was asked.

So far, I've never needed it, but it was there ready if needed.

Like you, my original Thai bank account was established at a higher exchange rate than now.

So why keep money in a Thai bank account at low Thai bank cr_p interest rates?

Use your local funds to live on ..... just be sure that the combined income sources at renewal time meets or exceeds the 800K requirement at renewal time.

[kimchibob]

Even though using the monthly income method with accompanying U.S. Embassy affidavit, the Jomtien Immigration Office requested a copy of all the pages of my Thai bank passbook pages. I assume this is to prove the money is actually coming into Thailand. BTW, I only include my U.S. Govt. pension in the calculation for the monthly income. I have proof of the income, but neither the U.S. Embassy or Thai Immigration has ever asked to see it.

[ubonjoe]

Police Order 777/2551 at 'In the case of retirement' 2.22:

 

3) Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month; 

 

The US Affidavit of Income for Retirement says:

 

I also affirm that I receive USD $ xxx every month from the United States Government and/or other sources.

 

There is no mention in either document of 'average' monthly income.

Police order 305/2551 documents required for extensions has average income written in proof of income requirements.

[JLCrab]

Police Order 777/2551 at 'In the case of retirement' 2.22:

3) Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month;

The US Affidavit of Income for Retirement says:

I also affirm that I receive USD $ xxx every month from the United States Government and/or other sources.

There is no mention in either document of 'average' monthly income.

Police order 305/2551 documents required for extensions has average income written in proof of income requirements.

Police Order 777/2551 says:

All other regulations, rules, and orders in the parts which are provided herein, or which are contradictory hereto or inconsistent herewith, shall be superseded by this Order.

305/2551 actually does mention the word 'average' but only in the section 2.18 involving extension for families. It does not mention average in 2.22 for retirement purposes.

The net of this all is that if an Immigration Officer were to say to you: "I want you to provide me with a document or documents to corroborate that you receive every month the figure as you just provided to me on your (US) income affidavit", that would be what you would have to provide.

[ubonjoe]

Was going by memory. Tried downloading 305 too confirm but had problem doing it with mobile app.

You can average income yourself for affidavit.

I have presented 6 affidavits and have never been asked for backup proof. But I have absolutely the best proof which is a bank book showing monthly transfers into my account greater than needed for extension.

[JLCrab]

For the US Embassy affidavit you make a sworn statement that that is what you receive every month without any mention of word 'average'. Regardless of the various Immigration Police Orders, if an Immigration official wants to see corroboration that that is in fact what you receive every month, then it would be up to that 'competent' official as to what he or she feels is is sufficient corroboration of the words 'every month' that you have sworn to in your affidavit.

In theory, even if your monthly transfers were greater than the minimum 65K per month, an Immigration officer might say that a fluctuating amount does not correspond to the every month statement you made and have sworn to on your US income affidavit. A few years back I tried to have the US Consular Officer notarize a modified version of the US Affidavit that would better correspond to my financial posture at the time . The US Consular said that they will in fact notarize it, but that various Thai Immigration officials have refused to accept amended US Affidavits that vary from the standard form they see every day.

... and you still have to be able to prove that such funds of 65K per month have been transferred from outside the Kingdom. BTW I also have never been asked for backup proof but it took a lot of effort to be able to provide a consistent dollar amount per month (as is sworn on the US affidavit) to meet the 65K amount per moth without fluctuations of Baht to dollar rates. Also that some offices insist on using the US$1 note exchange rate instead of the US$100 note rate.

[NeverSure]

So, are you guys saying that even though my monthly income in the US is greater than 65k, but I don't transfer all of it to Thailand, that I'm out of luck?

Proof of income in the US which I choose to leave in the US and draw only as needed doesn't count? I have to actually transfer into Thailand 65k every month?

[jrtmedic]

NeverSure

An interesting question.

I have always been under the impression that income derived from outside Thailand needed to amount to 65k month but did not HAVE to be transferred in that sum every month to a bank in Thailand.

[JLCrab]

Opinion only: I think the request from Immigration would be only that you can show reasonable amounts originating from outside Thailand and brought into Thailand; not the entire 65K:

Police Order 777/2551 says at 2.22 as one of the options:

3) Must have evidence of having income of no less than Baht 65,000 per month;

The US Income Affidavit only states that you have an income every month in US dollars -- not any subsequent disposition of those funds.

... and so agreeing with JRT above -- One way to do that is to have your USA debit/ATM card and to show withdrawal slips from a Thailand ATM machine.

[Suradit69]

Thanks for the various opinions.

I think the spirit of the law and the essence of what would be put on the affidavit would be covered if I backed it up with the statement of totals received year-to-date from my broker and averaged that on a per month basis.

On the other hand, I can also see that that would not be a strict, literal application of the law and a bit of a fudge on the affidavit.

The dividend income I use comes totally from two IRA accounts and I transfer money from those to my cash account on an ad hoc basis and then that money is transferred to the New York Bangkok Bank branch for deposit to my local account.

I think if I transfer a set amount per month from the IRAs to the cash account, I can legitimately say I am receiving that amount per month from the IRA custodian and use that when tallying up the total monthly payments I receive from pension, SS and the IRA custodian and report that on the affidavit.

[Suradit69]

For the US Embassy affidavit you make a sworn statement that that is what you receive every month without any mention of word 'average'. Regardless of the various Immigration Police Orders, if an Immigration official wants to see corroboration that that is in fact what you receive every month, then it would be up to that 'competent' official as to what he or she feels is is sufficient corroboration of the words 'every month' that you have sworn to in your affidavit.

In theory, even if your monthly transfers were greater than the minimum 65K per month, an Immigration officer might say that a fluctuating amount does not correspond to the every month statement you made and have sworn to on your US income affidavit. A few years back I tried to have the US Consular Officer notarize a modified version of the US Affidavit that would better correspond to my financial posture at the time . The US Consular said that they will in fact notarize it, but that various Thai Immigration officials have refused to accept amended US Affidavits that vary from the standard form they see every day.

... and you still have to be able to prove that such funds of 65K per month have been transferred from outside the Kingdom. BTW I also have never been asked for backup proof but it took a lot of effort to be able to provide a consistent dollar amount per month (as is sworn on the US affidavit) to meet the 65K amount per moth without fluctuations of Baht to dollar rates. Also that some offices insist on using the US$1 note exchange rate instead of the US$100 note rate.

"...... and you still have to be able to prove that such funds of 65K per month have been transferred from outside the Kingdom."

No. I know that's not right. You're stating that you are receiving an income of $xx per month and have a certain amount in a Thai bank.

They can easily see by looking at the copy of my bank book that I have never transferred exactly Baht 65K per month to Thailand. Some months nothing, some months maybe Baht 300,000. And I always transfer the amounts to the NY branch of Bangkok Bank.

And, over the course of the year, unfortunately, I bring in and spend more than Baht 65,000 per month despite my half-hearted attempts to be frugal.

NeverSure

An interesting question.

I have always been under the impression that income derived from outside Thailand needed to amount to 65k month but did not HAVE to be transferred in that sum every month to a bank in Thailand.

"...did not HAVE to be transferred in that sum every month to a bank in Thailand."

Yes, I'm positive that is correct.

[JLCrab]

So why not just set up an account where a fixed amount is structured to meet the 65K with sufficient cushion for reasonably anticipated baht to dollar currency fluctuations and stick to that amount ever d-mn month?

BTW Per Immigration Police Application for Retirement Extension as of 3 DEC 2008:

4. In case of having monthly income. Applicant must provide evidence of a monthly income with a minimum of 65,000 baht ... This evidence must include a letter of certification issued by the Embassy / Consulate of which applicant holds citizenship. .. Income could be pension, interest, investment payoff, etc.

(Note I have the original in both English and Thai language.):

As I later better said, Kuhn Suradit, you would only have to prove that a reasonable living amount of such funds originated from outside Thailand; not the entire amount. I used to do the Bangkok NY branch thing but just found, for my purposes, that using a US bank which reimburses the 150 baht Thailand ATM fee at the end of each month is easier.

[Suradit69]

So why not just set up an account where a fixed amount is structured to meet the 65K with sufficient cushion for reasonably anticipated baht to dollar currency fluctuations and stick to that amount ever d-mn month?

BTW Per Immigration Police Application for Retirement Extension as of 3 DEC 2008:

4. In case of having monthly income. Applicant must provide evidence of a monthly income with a minimum of 65,000 baht ... This evidence must include a letter of certification issued by the Embassy / Consulate of which applicant holds citizenship. .. Income could be pension, interest, investment payoff, etc.

(Note I have the original in both English and Thai language.):

As I later better said, Kuhn Suradit, you would only have to prove that a reasonable living amount of such funds originated from outside Thailand; not the entire amount.

Yes, my pension, SS and (if I arrange it that way) a regular monthly payment from my IRAs can be paid monthly into my brokerage cash money market account.

Then I can legitimately say I am receiving that total amount per month as disposable income and report that on the affidavit.

I think that manages to accomplish both the spirit and letter of the law and means the stated amount on the affidavit is defendable.

[JLCrab]

As I said, it took some effort for me, but I have had the same amount deposited every month in an account over the course of a given year EVERY MONTH for years even with the currency exchange fluctuations. I can readily pull off a hard copy activity report to demonstrate such and even, if necessary, do it online real-time on their own Immigration office computer if they were to doubt the validity or authenticity of such report.

[Suradit69]

As I said, it took some effort for me, but I have had the same amount deposited every month in an account over the course of a given year EVERY MONTH for years even with the currency exchange fluctuations. I can readily pull off a hard copy activity report to demonstrate such and even, if necessary, do it online real-time on their own Immigration office computer if they were to doubt the validity or authenticity of such report.

Yes, that makes sense and demonstrates a disciplined approach to your finances.

I have tried, with some success so far, to transfer more dollars in when the exchange rate is more favorable and to use baht already in Thailand when the exchange rate is poor, but I suppose the "dollar cost averaging" on a regular monthly transfer would probably work out to about the same results.

Thanks to everyone for their contributions.

[NeverSure]

I'm still not getting it. Right now my US social security income is about 85,000 baht pm. This I can easily prove. But I don't want to transfer even 65,000 baht to Thailand every month, at least not at first. Being one who doesn't drink or care for bar girls, I don't need that much.

So what happens if I transfer only 50k and leave the rest in the US? Is my proof that I have, from just the one source, 85k pm enough to satisfy, or do I have to transfer 65k when I don't want to?. (after I get set up with a car and scooter and rental and all.)

[jrtmedic]

I just transfer money to Thailand as and when needed. Immigration have never suggested or required that I do anything different.

Proof of my income is easily available but has never been required other than by my Embassy to facilitate issuing a letter confirming my income ( No sworn affidavits at my Embassy -- proof of income must be supplied)

[Mario2008]

There is a requirement to have an income of 65,000 baht income (if applying based on income alone). There is no requirement to recieve the income or transfer the income to Thailand itself.

It is advisable to have a bankaccoutn in thailand with some money in it, to show immigration. Just to show you have money to spend and 20,000 baht in the account is more than enough.

[ubonjoe]

For the US Embassy affidavit you make a sworn statement that that is what you receive every month without any mention of word 'average'. Regardless of the various Immigration Police Orders, if an Immigration official wants to see corroboration that that is in fact what you receive every month, then it would be up to that 'competent' official as to what he or she feels is is sufficient corroboration of the words 'every month' that you have sworn to in your affidavit.

 

In theory, even if your monthly transfers were greater than the minimum 65K per month, an Immigration officer might say that a fluctuating amount does not correspond to the every month  statement you made and have sworn to on your US income affidavit. A few years back I tried to have the US Consular Officer notarize a modified version of the US Affidavit that would better correspond to my financial posture at the time . The US Consular said that they will in fact notarize it, but that various Thai Immigration officials have refused to accept amended US Affidavits that vary from the standard form they see every day.

 

... and you still have to be able to prove that such funds of 65K per month have been transferred from outside the Kingdom. BTW I also have never been asked for backup proof but it took a lot of effort to be able to provide a consistent dollar amount per month (as is sworn on the US affidavit) to meet the 65K amount per moth without fluctuations of Baht to dollar rates. Also that some offices insist on using the US$1 note exchange rate instead of the US$100  note rate.

I don't agree with your interpretation of what the affidavit says.

It really boils down to being able to honestly sign the affidavit. I don't think they could charge you for making a false statement if you have the potential to have the sworn income.

As far as back up proof I don't believe immigration would care if it is the exact amount shown on affidavit or not.

There is no requirement that you bring all money into the country.

And by the way I only have to show 40k not the excessive 65k.

Now my bank book shows the full amount of my SS payments because I use direct deposit to Bangkok Bank NY. I do have assets/funds I could use on affidavit for 65k but why would I.

[NeverSure]

There is a requirement to have an income of 65,000 baht income (if applying based on income alone). There is no requirement to recieve the income or transfer the income to Thailand itself.

It is advisable to have a bankaccoutn in thailand with some money in it, to show immigration. Just to show you have money to spend and 20,000 baht in the account is more than enough.

Thank you.

[IMA_FARANG]

NeverSure

An interesting question.

I have always been under the impression that income derived from outside Thailand needed to amount to 65k month but did not HAVE to be transferred in that sum every month to a bank in Thailand.

----------------

On your income statement from the U.S. embassy you do NOT need to declare an amount that is equivalent to 65K Thai baht monthly.

I declare my U.S. Social security which is less than 65K Thai baht equivalent.

I state the amount in U.S. dollars, which is $xxxx.xx monthly (no I'm not going to put the actual figures in there).

And s I said in my other post, I use the combined yearly income method which adds my approx. 500K Thai bank account into the total annual income amount .... that's over 800K equivalent in Thai Baht.

I back up my embassy monthly income statement with a statement from Social Security showing my monthly income from them.

That shows my actual Social security monthly income in $.

The figure I enter on my U,S. embassy form is exactly what it says on my U.S. Social Security (pension) form.

As I said I have never been asked to show my Social Security monthly form as proof of what I (truthfully) say on my U.S. embassy income statement.,

But jus in case I'm ever asked, the figures will match..... so the immigration can't claim I'm bullsh_ting them on either one.

And as I said before, this annual income combination method has been accepted twice in the last two years by my immigration office (Chaeng Wattana).

I learned long ago, when working with government officials (no matter what country) always CYAP (Cover Your Ass with Paperwork)

[Robby nz]

I have not worked through the US embassy but through the NZ so I don't know what the US will accept.

What I have done in the past is to print out a summery of income which is paid into a NZ account and along with NZ bank statements and interest certificates as proof of my summery and presented these to the NZ embassy.

They then put their stamp on my summery and bank statements confirming them as true and correct.

They did not give a document of their own.

I then took these plus my Thai bank letter and bank book and copy of bank book along to immigration with every page signed by me.

They have always accepted this without question.

I only transfer money from NZ when I need it and this could be confirmed by comparing statements from both banks.

Because interest rates in NZ have now dropped way down from what they were I have chosen to bring 800k Baht and put it in a Thai bank term deposit account.

I lose a little interest by doing this but it saves the hassle of proving income and a trip to the embassy which in its self costs me a couple of thousand Baht.