scammed by a Foreigner with property rental

[stephenwestbkk]

Hello Members of Thaivisa Forum,
I wanted to ask something about a Fraud in rental scam:

A German Friend was scammed by paying the rental fee in advance and could not move into the House, as the Person who rented it out, was not the owner and had no permit to rent the Property out.
There was a contract made between both and money was paid, but finally the real owner arrived and did not know about the rental issue and had no clue, what happened with his house.

Now, the person who rented out the Property (a russian man), took money in advance (about 180.000 baht) and gave also a co0py of his passport.

Now, my Friend already back in Germany (he didn't wanted to stay anymore after getting scammed) tried to report this through the thai embassy in Berlin to the thai police, but they said, they could not make anything about this issue, because only signature and the copy of a person isn't enough for reporting this to the officials.

Is there any chance to make a successful Report to the Thai Police for this fraud ?

I guess, he will not have any chance to get any of his money back and this scammer is probably still running freely in thailand his professional scams in other parts of the country.

How would be the chances to be successful with getting this Person to court and would he get punished at all (or them, maybe its a whole group making this) ???

replies are appreciated.

[monkeycountry]

Depending on the details of the contract, a civil lawsuit can be filed and perhaps also a criminal suit for fraud. In either case your friend will have to contact a Thai lawyer. It is not a case for any embassy and probably not the police either.

If your friend wants revenge, filing a lawsuit might work, but if he just wants his money back, then he should forget about it, as legal fees will likely cost more than he stands to win. Further, lawsuits in Thailand takes many years, and even if he does eventually win, the Russian could be broke, or have left the country meanwhile.

Edited August 26, 2013 by monkeycountry

[TommyUK1960]

Sorry to hear about your friend

Got me worried now as I have found nice new house to rent in Bang Saray and they are owned by a Russian guy.

How do you protect against this type of scam?

Only things I can think of is minimum deposit and just 1 months rent.

[lemoncake]

Sorry to hear about your friend

Got me worried now as I have found nice new house to rent in Bang Saray and they are owned by a Russian guy.

How do you protect against this type of scam?

Only things I can think of is minimum deposit and just 1 months rent.

If the owner is doing the leasing, you can ask for copy of chanot, his passport or who ever name is in chanot present

[Tropicalevo]

Sorry to hear that your friend lost his money. In my experience, deals like this are not that common on Samui - but hey - the Russians are movng in.

If you are dealing direct with private individuals, it is difficult to avoid this IF the person that you are dealing with is a crook.

If it is your first time renting a property - then I would always recommend using a licenced agency. Yes they charge commission - but that usually gives you protection. Or if it is a Thai - ask for their TAT number.

If you are dealing with individuals then sure - give a minimum deposit and the rest on arrival.

In this particular case, 180,000 baht is a lot of money. I have never asked for that much before arrival. (I am not an agent - just a property manager who is sometimes asked for rental places. I do not take commissions.) A genuine rental agent will ask for all of the money up front within a certain amount of time before the arrival date.

The cowboys can ask - but do not give. As Tommy UK says - give a minimum deposit unless they can prove their credentials.

Back to the 'what can you do'? As Monkeycountry said - you will need to go through a lawyer. Expensive (and more than half of them are crooks based on three personal cases that I have been involved in) and it will take a long time.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Tropicalevo

[Tropicalevo]

Sorry to hear about your friend

Got me worried now as I have found nice new house to rent in Bang Saray and they are owned by a Russian guy.

How do you protect against this type of scam?

Only things I can think of is minimum deposit and just 1 months rent.

If the owner is doing the leasing, you can ask for copy of chanot, his passport or who ever name is in chanot present

Lemoncake - a real con man will have (fake) copies of all of these documents for overseas customers.

In the case of my own properties - there is no name on the housebook and my company owns the land. You had a good idea - but it doesn't quite work like that here. Anyway - how many foreigners can read Thai names. Foreigners cannot own land here.

[lemoncake]

Sorry to hear about your friend

Got me worried now as I have found nice new house to rent in Bang Saray and they are owned by a Russian guy.

How do you protect against this type of scam?

Only things I can think of is minimum deposit and just 1 months rent.

If the owner is doing the leasing, you can ask for copy of chanot, his passport or who ever name is in chanot present

Lemoncake - a real con man will have (fake) copies of all of these documents for overseas customers.

In the case of my own properties - there is no name on the housebook and my company owns the land. You had a good idea - but it doesn't quite work like that here. Anyway - how many foreigners can read Thai names. Foreigners cannot own land here.

Good point, so what would you suggest besides smaller deposit? is there any way to check the legality's?

[onthemoon]

A friend of mine is a lawyer. She has recommended forever to check the credentials of a landlord with the land department. It appears she has a point.

Sent from my I-405 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[evadgib]

If the money originated in Europe at the start of the transaction there may be some mileage in exploring the small print @ whatever regulator the sending bank adheres to.

HTH

Edited August 26, 2013 by evadgib

[Neilly]

OP...any chance of the guys name (the Russian) or his trading company so that should we come across him, or his company we can steer well clear...if you don't want to post it here you can PM me

[Tropicalevo]

OP...any chance of the guys name (the Russian) or his trading company so that should we come across him, or his company we can steer well clear...if you don't want to post it here you can PM me

Good point.

I deal with 4 or 5 'Russian Rental Agents'. In my limited experience, the girls are quite professional and the boys are a waste of space. None of them are registered and so far, all of their clients have been Russians or Kazaks.

I too would appreciate a heads up on the names.

[Mario2008]

Libel laws and forum rules do not allow naming and shaming on the forum.

[yankee99]

Amazing as within 5 minutes of not being let in the house i would have been at the police station. The OPs friend jumped on a plane to germany? hmmm smells

[ericthai]

Depending on the details of the contract, a civil lawsuit can be filed and perhaps also a criminal suit for fraud. In either case your friend will have to contact a Thai lawyer. It is not a case for any embassy and probably not the police either.

If your friend wants revenge, filing a lawsuit might work, but if he just wants his money back, then he should forget about it, as legal fees will likely cost more than he stands to win. Further, lawsuits in Thailand takes many years, and even if he does eventually win, the Russian could be broke, or have left the country meanwhile.

It does not matter what the contract says as the guy did not own the property to be able to rent it. So the contract is not valid. The contract does help to show fraud. The big issue is you have to find the Russian guy to bring charges against him and you have to prove your friend gave him the money. At this point it's a matter of proving he was scammed by this guy.

If the copy of the passport is real and he has a receipt from the guy for the money if paid cash then he might have a chance but it's still along shot. His best chance is if he wired the money, then you can trace the account it was wired to and hopefully it is the same Russian guy. My guess the Russian guy is smarter than that and used a fake passport, had him pay cash or western union.

Most of the time the Russians have things very well planned out. Really I would not doubt it if the owner of the house was even in on the scam. Allows the Russian to show the house get everything done and money paid then your friend goes to move in and the owner shows up just in time.

[SamuiRes]

Now I am not sure if this would work or not and would not get the money back but MIGHT get the Russian - assuming the Passport is real.

The most tenacious people you can deal with here are the Revenue Dept. If they feel they are owed money watch out.

Send them a copy of the lease, the Passport and the receipt for the money.

[Gsxrnz]

I've rented four houses in Jomtien. Always been lucky in that you call the number on the sign and the "owner" or sometimes the owner's friend will meet you there and show you around. Nosy neighbours have made themselves known to us as we inspect, or the local moo baan manager also arrives and checks us out.

It soon becomes fairly clear that all parties are aware of the validity of each other, so it gives a feeling of security.

I only offer 5,000 deposit when I sign the lease and only pay the bond and one months rent on the day I move in and have the keys. If they don't like it well there's only a few thousand other houses to rent within a 5klm radius.

[stephenwestbkk]

thanks for all postings and advices about this issue with getting scammed by the "agent".
I tried not to make any racist comment, but we all know, they are getting more in the LOS.
The one comment of yankee99 was really no necessary. You must be from the us and everything must be smelly for you, poor guy...
anyway, back to the rental scam, he got the keys from the house, he even moved in for about 2 weeks. but somehow he wanted to get out of the house and wanted to terminate the contract. But he did not get his money back. And then the real Owner returned from Switzerland and did not know, what happened, but of course, he did not paid the Tenant the money back. He went to a Lawyer and the Lawyer told him, he would not have a chance to get his money back, but if he wants to fill a report, the Lawyer asked him to give him 30.000 in advance for his work, but without a guarantee, that he get any money back or the russian into jail, which was the reason, he didn't made it, as he didn't want to have more expenses in this issue, which was annoying him a lot.

This is the whole story, how I know it from him...

Imo, he has no chance, to get any positive result, as it looks like, there was not really a tricky fraud made. But this is only my opinion...

I would never make an advance payment of such an amount for a lease anyway. One or two month deposit and the one month upfront, when receiving the keys.

Just be warned, and for those, who wants to know, who this russian is, I will find it out and pm to the ones, who are asking for it.

thanks again, and wishing all a blessed time...

[1Ping1]

I would guess the passport he gave a copy of was bogus. Meaning no way to track the bastard down and lynch him as should be done. Very sad but happens in US also. Simple straight forward scam that brings them in serious coin.

[Neilly]

and for those, who wants to know, who this russian is, I will find it out and pm to the ones, who are asking for it.

[John 1]

thanks for all postings and advices about this issue with getting scammed by the "agent".

I tried not to make any racist comment, but we all know, they are getting more in the LOS.

The one comment of yankee99 was really no necessary. You must be from the us and everything must be smelly for you, poor guy...

anyway, back to the rental scam, he got the keys from the house, he even moved in for about 2 weeks. but somehow he wanted to get out of the house and wanted to terminate the contract. But he did not get his money back. And then the real Owner returned from Switzerland and did not know, what happened, but of course, he did not paid the Tenant the money back. He went to a Lawyer and the Lawyer told him, he would not have a chance to get his money back, but if he wants to fill a report, the Lawyer asked him to give him 30.000 in advance for his work, but without a guarantee, that he get any money back or the russian into jail, which was the reason, he didn't made it, as he didn't want to have more expenses in this issue, which was annoying him a lot.

This is the whole story, how I know it from him...

Imo, he has no chance, to get any positive result, as it looks like, there was not really a tricky fraud made. But this is only my opinion...

I would never make an advance payment of such an amount for a lease anyway. One or two month deposit and the one month upfront, when receiving the keys.

Just be warned, and for those, who wants to know, who this russian is, I will find it out and pm to the ones, who are asking for it.

thanks again, and wishing all a blessed time...

After reading your OP post you say the guy didn't move in. Now you say he moved in for 2 weeks. This story is very fishy. Why are you saying the Russian did anything wrong he kept his part of the contract?

[yankee99]

thanks for all postings and advices about this issue with getting scammed by the "agent".

I tried not to make any racist comment, but we all know, they are getting more in the LOS.

The one comment of yankee99 was really no necessary. You must be from the us and everything must be smelly for you, poor guy...

anyway, back to the rental scam, he got the keys from the house, he even moved in for about 2 weeks. but somehow he wanted to get out of the house and wanted to terminate the contract. But he did not get his money back. And then the real Owner returned from Switzerland and did not know, what happened, but of course, he did not paid the Tenant the money back. He went to a Lawyer and the Lawyer told him, he would not have a chance to get his money back, but if he wants to fill a report, the Lawyer asked him to give him 30.000 in advance for his work, but without a guarantee, that he get any money back or the russian into jail, which was the reason, he didn't made it, as he didn't want to have more expenses in this issue, which was annoying him a lot.

This is the whole story, how I know it from him...

Imo, he has no chance, to get any positive result, as it looks like, there was not really a tricky fraud made. But this is only my opinion...

I would never make an advance payment of such an amount for a lease anyway. One or two month deposit and the one month upfront, when receiving the keys.

Just be warned, and for those, who wants to know, who this russian is, I will find it out and pm to the ones, who are asking for it.

thanks again, and wishing all a blessed time...

Listen no need to flame me or the usa. The comment was spot on and after reading the quoted post above i am sure most would agree. instead of your freind being scammed seems he wanted out of his lease and they said no.

[PattayaPhom]

Sorry to hear about your friend

Got me worried now as I have found nice new house to rent in Bang Saray and they are owned by a Russian guy.

How do you protect against this type of scam?

Only things I can think of is minimum deposit and just 1 months rent.

Don't know of any Russians letting properties in Bang Saray. Where in BS?

[maccaroni man]

No

[stephenwestbkk]

thanks for all postings and advices about this issue with getting scammed by the "agent".

I tried not to make any racist comment, but we all know, they are getting more in the LOS.

The one comment of yankee99 was really no necessary. You must be from the us and everything must be smelly for you, poor guy...

anyway, back to the rental scam, he got the keys from the house, he even moved in for about 2 weeks. but somehow he wanted to get out of the house and wanted to terminate the contract. But he did not get his money back. And then the real Owner returned from Switzerland and did not know, what happened, but of course, he did not paid the Tenant the money back. He went to a Lawyer and the Lawyer told him, he would not have a chance to get his money back, but if he wants to fill a report, the Lawyer asked him to give him 30.000 in advance for his work, but without a guarantee, that he get any money back or the russian into jail, which was the reason, he didn't made it, as he didn't want to have more expenses in this issue, which was annoying him a lot.

This is the whole story, how I know it from him...

Imo, he has no chance, to get any positive result, as it looks like, there was not really a tricky fraud made. But this is only my opinion...

I would never make an advance payment of such an amount for a lease anyway. One or two month deposit and the one month upfront, when receiving the keys.

Just be warned, and for those, who wants to know, who this russian is, I will find it out and pm to the ones, who are asking for it.

thanks again, and wishing all a blessed time...

After reading your OP post you say the guy didn't move in. Now you say he moved in for 2 weeks. This story is very fishy. Why are you saying the Russian did anything wrong he kept his part of the contract?

I didn't said, the guy did not moved in. the point here is, that I did not know the entire story until yesterday evening. it is possible, that the russian Guy did not do anything wrong, BUT, the Tenant was scammed and lost his money in a rental Fraud, which seems like true. The German guy, who moved in the House, didn't stayed in the House, he just started to bring some of his stuff in the House. But the person, who made the Contract, was NOT permitted to rent out the House.

And he paid in cash, no receipt, "only" noticed on the Contract, that advance payment has been made.

I can not understand, how it comes, that this Guy did not asked for a separate receipt of the payment for the rent and the deposit.

I did not wanted to offend anyone or bring up something, which is maybe not true, but it seems like pretty clear, there is something not correct here...

IF the guy did not scammed him, and just did not paid him back the money, back, because of any reason, or he did not fulfill the contract in any way, then I am sorry.

I only wanted to post this, to get more information, what the german maybe can do, but seems like, he can not do anything...

And yankee99, my apology, now is something smelly to me too..

cheers,

[Tropicalevo]

Sorry to hear about your friend

Got me worried now as I have found nice new house to rent in Bang Saray and they are owned by a Russian guy.

How do you protect against this type of scam?

Only things I can think of is minimum deposit and just 1 months rent.

Don't know of any Russians letting properties in Bang Saray. Where in BS?

Isn't Bang Saray near Pattaya?

If so, why is this in the Samui forum. Now I am totally confused. (Must be my age )

[John 1]

Sorry to hear about your friend

Got me worried now as I have found nice new house to rent in Bang Saray and they are owned by a Russian guy.

How do you protect against this type of scam?

Only things I can think of is minimum deposit and just 1 months rent.

Don't know of any Russians letting properties in Bang Saray. Where in BS?

Isn't Bang Saray near Pattaya?

If so, why is this in the Samui forum. Now I am totally confused. (Must be my age )

It should be in the BS forum.

[BigC]

Sorry to hear that your friend lost his money. In my experience, deals like this are not that common on Samui - but hey - the Russians are movng in.

If you are dealing direct with private individuals, it is difficult to avoid this IF the person that you are dealing with is a crook.

If it is your first time renting a property - then I would always recommend using a licenced agency. Yes they charge commission - but that usually gives you protection. Or if it is a Thai - ask for their TAT number.

If you are dealing with individuals then sure - give a minimum deposit and the rest on arrival.

In this particular case, 180,000 baht is a lot of money. I have never asked for that much before arrival. (I am not an agent - just a property manager who is sometimes asked for rental places. I do not take commissions.) A genuine rental agent will ask for all of the money up front within a certain amount of time before the arrival date.

The cowboys can ask - but do not give. As Tommy UK says - give a minimum deposit unless they can prove their credentials.

Back to the 'what can you do'? As Monkeycountry said - you will need to go through a lawyer. Expensive (and more than half of them are crooks alt=whistling.gif> based on three personal cases that I have been involved in) and it will take a long time.

normally you just need a deposit to secure the dates. If the owner or the agency rent the property out to someone else then theyu should give the deposit back.

Proffesssional letting agencies normally allow credit card deposits. on the other hand if you are to cansel then you ar3e liable to lose your deposit as it could mean that this property has lost a customer which is fare.

this case naming and shaming would be nice maybe not on this website maybe face book or something

[samuibruno]

he got the keys from the house, he even moved in for about 2 weeks. but somehow he wanted to get out of the house and wanted to terminate the contract.

sounds like he wanted to break the contract and is now moaning that he didnt get his money back

i think he should stay where he is and learn some basic life skills