Does Face Make Creative Thought Impossible?

[jdinasia]

To the OP ....

sorry but nothing I said was insulting ... just accurate ....

unlike your original post or anything that came after it.

I don't think I have heard "up 2 you" from a thai that was not in some manner working for me or my guest in over 2 years. And when it was a guest when asked again about something they would offer an opinion.

Your experience in Thailand and your gross generalizations show you to be quite shallow even though you seem to want us to think you are "deep"

I really do hope that you get some concept of the difference between "face" and "greeng jai" though! (I don't expect you will ... but if you do your life will get immeasurably better here!)

[jamman]

I don’t think the real post is about Orwell or taboos. I think it is about misunderstanding Thai culture. I think it is about thinking Thai’s are Western. I think it is about thinking the values and morals and ethics of Thailand do not meet the expectations of the OP. I think it is about thinking Thai women are the same as Western women.

You gotta pick your role kid. It may be that the race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that’s the way to bet. I feel a little like Damon Runyan.

You have to be on top or bottom. If you want to be on the bottom you might as well go back to Farang land. Thailand is a culture that expects the male to be in control.

But you have to act like you are in control even if your basic upbringing has left you unprepared to do this.

You know what a Thai guy would have done presented with your problem? Blown her off and went to see the mia noi.

America has large mineral resources, large supplies of food and technological resources. Americans take advantage of these things. Thailand has the largest supply of beautiful women per square foot than any other nation in the world. To get along in Thailand you must take advantage of that.

Don’t expect truth, justice or the Western way. Here it is power, deviousness and the Thai way. Adjust. It’s not too hard. Your strength is being tested.

If your reaction to she is never going to see you again is OK, no problem, you are fine. Walk out. She will be back in a few days.

Learning to speak the language is a lot more than just learning how to pronounce words. You are not in Farang land. What you learned in Farang land does not qualify you to understand what is going on here. Words are cheap actions are precious. Be like a Thai. That is the answer to your quest.

You present Thai women with an incongruity that they don’t deal well with. Mr. Nice guy works in Farang land maybe. Mr. Nice guy gets no kudos in Thailand. Keep the property in your name. Keep the money in your bank account and operate from a position of strength.

In depth communication between the sexes has not arrived in Thailand yet. It will probably get here in a hundred years or so.

A Thai guy jumps around throws a couple of punches verbally or physically depending on the level of hi so and goes out and has a drink with the boys or his brother or the mia noi. Mr Thai doesn’t get real up set about it. Neither does the woman. She may slash her wrists but usually it is not deep enough to create any real harm. This is a puppet show of emotion. Not to say it is shallow but it is a show.

Get with the program. Lighten up while you still can.

Yes, for the most part I do agree with you that in Thailand and the Philippines and Indonesia, you have to have to use a firm hand. I've grown accustomed to that, and mostly like it. In fact, I'm so paternal that all of my girlfriends have called me Daddy. And if the situation calls for it, i have no qualms at all about being firmly in charge.

I think you read into my example quite a lot that wasn't there though. Just because shit needn't be taken doesn't mean that shit doesn't stink. Thais and Filipinas and Indonesiand tend to use emotional manipulation more than western women do. It's boring - really it is - it's boring.

To set my history straight, I have been in Bali since Jan, was in the Philippines for the year prior, and Thailand for the 2 prior to that, and have been visiting Indonesia for over 10 years.

Edited April 17, 2006 by jamman

[Plus]

Then why are you still bothering us? Are you thinking about eventual return? Go ahead, but then what's all that about Orwell?

Wasn't there a poster ahile ago who brought exactly the same points in different words? Thai guy had his heart first borken in Philippines, though.

"All asians are guile" was his motto, if I remember correctly. Search for it if you like, but the general response wasn't any different.

[ourmanflint]

One of the best threads I've read here once everyone stopped attacking the OP. I think Mark45y's observations of Thai culture, while being difficult to swallow for this "nice guy" farang may just be spot on, and I will definitely bear this in mind when living there.

Thailand is a wonderful, beautiful and captivating country to live in or visit, but to deny that it is utterly repressed in certain aspects of life is also to deny the Thais their own values and their own culture. This is this observers standpoint, and is not meant to offend

[jamman]

Then why are you still bothering us? Are you thinking about eventual return? Go ahead, but then what's all that about Orwell?

Wasn't there a poster ahile ago who brought exactly the same points in different words? Thai guy had his heart first borken in Philippines, though.

"All asians are guile" was his motto, if I remember correctly. Search for it if you like, but the general response wasn't any different.

Wow - they say that once you create an object of art, the interpretation of it doesn't belong to you. You sure interpreted my piece about Face, Guile, and the commerce of living differently than I intended.

I'm Canadian, not Thai. And little Sarah never broke my heart. Crazy girl with borderline personality disorder, but a year with her I would not retract for 5 others. Great year. F*in great year.

I still post on this forum, as I'm still in SE Asia. The region shares some cultural traits, if compared as a whole to the west as a whole.

Edited April 17, 2006 by jamman

[Plus]

The girl who got all pissy jealous was just projecting - laying her own trip on me - she had a boyfriend at the time

So your girlfriend was a fembot. Sadly we knew that all along, Austin.

[jamman]

One of the best threads I've read here once everyone stopped attacking the OP. I think Mark45y's observations of Thai culture, while being difficult to swallow for this "nice guy" farang may just be spot on, and I will definitely bear this in mind when living there.

Thailand is a wonderful, beautiful and captivating country to live in or visit, but to deny that it is utterly repressed in certain aspects of life is also to deny the Thais their own values and their own culture. This is this observers standpoint, and is not meant to offend

There is nothing in my posts to suggest I'm a nice guy falang, expecting Asian women to be western. I actually prefer the dominant role I get to play here - that seems natural enough. I can't say here just how dominant I have chosen to be at times - I'd get run out of town. Sometimes a child or mate wants boundaries to be enforced, is all I'll say. Boundaries are what are needed to maintain family, and sometimes you have to highlight the choices - stay in family or not? Sometimes you have enforce boundaries, up and to that point of choice - make it painfully obvious.

But no one likes unnecessary drama.

And I think you make a great point - that to respect cultural differences means you have to grant another culture their right to suck. In some ways, Thailand sucks. I'm from a culture that has no problem in pointing that out.

Edited April 17, 2006 by jamman

[jamman]

The girl who got all pissy jealous was just projecting - laying her own trip on me - she had a boyfriend at the time

So your girlfriend was a fembot. Sadly we knew that all along, Austin.

It took me a while to get it. Yup! Fembot!

I never called her my girlfriend, though she tried to call me her boyfriend, when with me. After a while I had to do the "out with mosquitos dance". That is the dance done when you chose to have girls that buzz about and give nothing but an itch leave your life. I did a happy dance in my living room, shouting "out with mosquito girls!". After she kept missing date appointments I told her to f off - as I did every time she kept calling after that. Who needs it.

My current companion is way kinder. She gives quite a lot to me.

Edited April 17, 2006 by jamman

[Plus]

Jamman, this thread gets filled faster than I can access it.

The guy I was talking about wasn't Thai. I meant to type "That" guy, but it's too late to correct now. If it was you who wrote about asian guile, then there was my post in that thread that was very understanding about your point. I don't remember what I wrote exactly, though.

With all the interpretations of that work of art we are getting farther and farther from Orwell who formed the large part of your original question (the topic name is a question, Jdinasia).

So yes, the face thing does pose a block to free expression, but it meant to be overcome to properly communicate.

[jdinasia]

One of the best threads I've read here once everyone stopped attacking the OP. I think Mark45y's observations of Thai culture, while being difficult to swallow for this "nice guy" farang may just be spot on, and I will definitely bear this in mind when living there.

Thailand is a wonderful, beautiful and captivating country to live in or visit, but to deny that it is utterly repressed in certain aspects of life is also to deny the Thais their own values and their own culture. This is this observers standpoint, and is not meant to offend

There is nothing in my posts to suggest I'm a nice guy falang, expecting Asian women to be western. I actually prefer the dominant role I get to play here - that seems natural enough. I can't say here just how dominant I have chosen to be at times - I'd get run out of town. Sometimes a child or mate wants boundaries to be enforced, is all I'll say. Boundaries are what are needed to maintain family, and sometimes you have to highlight the choices - stay in family or not? Sometimes you have enforce boundaries, up and to that point of choice - make it painfully obvious.

But no one likes unnecessary drama.

hmmmm did I peg it in one about the spousal abuse profile earlier? .... sure could be!

[jamman]

O

hmmmm did I peg it in one about the spousal abuse profile earlier? .... sure could be!

Ya, I could be western wimp, trying to give too much authority to an Asian girls pouting, or I could be a spousal abuser. You really don't know.

At least I'm not a forum poster who instead of talking about the issues a post brings up, looks for any excuse to make personal insults. We know you are that.

[Plus]

It took me a while to get it. Yup! Fembot

In this case fembot is a Female Robot, a quote from Austin Powers movies. The woman who taught him the beauty of monogamy was a fembot, and MI6 knew it all along.

I meant that as your situtation is quite common and predictable. Back to Orwell, please? Wasn't there something more than broken relationships to your original post? Usually it turns out there isn't. Just women, fascinating as they are.

You are not the only one with a penis, you know. We all had similar experiences.

Are you basing your posts on anything more than your personal relationships? It surely looked like that in the beginning but desintegrated since.

[Griffin]

There must be a few of us up with sleep problems. I need to be up in 5 hours.

Maybe the problem, if I may be so bold Jamman, is that you refer to girls (plural) in your life. Women 'know' this. I guess they have some 6th sense and that may be why they act weird.

When I first met my wife I had a couple of friends in the wings. When I cut ties with them her attitude (my wife) changed for the better. Even though we never discussed my 'friends' and she never knew I had said goodbye to them.

Play Twilight Zone tune.

[ourmanflint]

One of the best threads I've read here once everyone stopped attacking the OP. I think Mark45y's observations of Thai culture, while being difficult to swallow for this "nice guy" farang may just be spot on, and I will definitely bear this in mind when living there.

Thailand is a wonderful, beautiful and captivating country to live in or visit, but to deny that it is utterly repressed in certain aspects of life is also to deny the Thais their own values and their own culture. This is this observers standpoint, and is not meant to offend

There is nothing in my posts to suggest I'm a nice guy falang

I know I was talking about me!!! This nice guy=me

[jamman]

It took me a while to get it. Yup! Fembot

In this case fembot is a Female Robot, a quote from Austin Powers movies. The woman who taught him the beauty of monogamy was a fembot, and MI6 knew it all along.

I meant that as your situtation is quite common and predictable. Back to Orwell, please? Wasn't there something more than broken relationships to your original post? Usually it turns out there isn't. Just women, fascinating as they are.

You are not the only one with a penis, you know. We all had similar experiences.

Are you basing your posts on anything more than your personal relationships? It surely looked like that in the beginning but desintegrated since.

Oh, it's been a while - I thought the fembot starting shooting at him from her robot tities? A heartless hurtful mechanical being is the image I thought you were trying to portray. I prefer the image of vampire or mosquito, myself.

I only mentioned her as some posters tried to read in a lot of fluff about my "relationship" to her. The reason she ever entered the story line was meant to be an example of a particularly asian thinking style and use of language, where emotional manipulation is the thrust of communication, not straightforward talk. It was not directly related to my original point about face stunting free thought.

But this is:

In the Philippines there are a lot of really really good cover bands. But pretty well no original music. Great talented musicians, but they see no need, or there is no market for, an original voice. They have nothing to say, or no one wants to hear new and original stuff. I put that down to face stifling free expression. What teenager didn't write lots of anxt ridden poetry? We all get creative urges - don't we? That's what I wonder - I suspect that the embarassment of sharing deep emotions and not expressing them stifles even the internal articulation of them.

[jamman]

There is nothing in my posts to suggest I'm a nice guy falang

I know I was talking about me!!! This nice guy=me

Oh!! My mistake. In that case, ya, you are in the right place. SE Asia is a great place to become a man again. I think I wasn't really myself until I lived here for a while. There are taboos in the west that we can't see, while living there. One of them is the taboo against being a man.

[jamman]

There must be a few of us up with sleep problems. I need to be up in 5 hours.

Maybe the problem, if I may be so bold Jamman, is that you refer to girls (plural) in your life. Women 'know' this. I guess they have some 6th sense and that may be why they act weird.

When I first met my wife I had a couple of friends in the wings. When I cut ties with them her attitude (my wife) changed for the better. Even though we never discussed my 'friends' and she never knew I had said goodbye to them.

Play Twilight Zone tune.

Ya, I know what you mean. A companion will intuitively know when you start to think of them as a mate, and it does make a huge difference.

I no longer automatically class everyone I have sex with as a mate though. Not right away. I'd rather be thought of as uncommited, if I am not commited.

[ourmanflint]

It was not directly related to my original point about face stunting free thought.

But this is:

In the Philippines there are a lot of really really good cover bands. But pretty well no original music. Great talented musicians, but they see no need, or there is no market for, an original voice. They have nothing to say, or no one wants to hear new and original stuff. I put that down to face stifling free expression. What teenager didn't write lots of anxt ridden poetry? We all get creative urges - don't we? That's what I wonder - I suspect that the embarassment of sharing deep emotions and not expressing them stifles even the internal articulation of them.

i think that while I agreed with your original premise you may be drifting onto areas which have a physiological counterpart as well. There have been many studies which have shown ( google it) the differences in physiology of eastern and western brains, these centre around the ability to innovate. Having that novel idea is just harder for Asians because their brains are wired up differently to western brains, this results in everything you have just said about the Phillipines, being able to copy and refine someone elses ideas to the nth degree, but being able to abstract the initial concept is very difficult for them. This may also play a part in Thais not being as spontaneously creative as others. Though they are one of the most intuitive and adaptable people as well.

[verzenden]

I felt a need to reply a couple of times while reading this tread. When i started reading there where just 3 pages, now by the time i finished reading there 6. Now I'm just to tired and need to get up early tomorrow morning! Jamman i mostly agree with you, you seem to be the most intelligent in this tread, congratulations and good night.

[Plus]

When I mentioned fembot I wasn't talking about mechanical heartelss things with sexiest boobs ever. The punchline was "we knew all along".

Yes, Phillipinos have no original ideas, just as they have no original music, or original fashion or food whatsoever. What's new there?

Thais are not the most imaginative nation on Earth, too. What's new again?

Can you go back to your original post and tell us what bothers you so much exactly?

[jamman]

It was not directly related to my original point about face stunting free thought.

But this is:

In the Philippines there are a lot of really really good cover bands. But pretty well no original music. Great talented musicians, but they see no need, or there is no market for, an original voice. They have nothing to say, or no one wants to hear new and original stuff. I put that down to face stifling free expression. What teenager didn't write lots of anxt ridden poetry? We all get creative urges - don't we? That's what I wonder - I suspect that the embarassment of sharing deep emotions and not expressing them stifles even the internal articulation of them.

i think that while I agreed with your original premise you may be drifting onto areas which have a physiological counterpart as well. There have been many studies which have shown ( google it) the differences in physiology of eastern and western brains, these centre around the ability to innovate. Having that novel idea is just harder for Asians because their brains are wired up differently to western brains, this results in everything you have just said about the Phillipines, being able to copy and refine someone elses ideas to the nth degree, but being able to abstract the initial concept is very difficult for them. This may also play a part in Thais not being as spontaneously creative as others. Though they are one of the most intuitive and adaptable people as well.

Oh that is very interesting. On a related note, some genetic research has shown that above average IQ often correlates with certain genes, which are not evenly distrubuted globally. And on the other hand, on the nurture side of nature nurture, performing certain tasks will strengthen and grow the related parts of the brain. If you visualize a lot, that part of your brain will actually grow, and you will become better at visualizing. Lots of mental operations change the shape of the brain. So yes, definitely there are race differences that make big cognitive differences - there is no longer any scientific doubt that genes change the shape of our brains and are distributed regionally - there is no longer any question that some genes that have very direct effect on cognition are not homogenously dispersed in all cultures and regions. And at the same time, culture and training makes huge impacts on how brains develop.

In another post I mentioned some Amazon tribe that is incapable of understanding the concept of numbers. Some of their children and adults are mixed race with the surrounding populations that do maths just fine, yet they still can not understand the concept of numbers. I find that anecdote fascinating. What abilities could we have had, had only our culture recognized them and fostered them while we were still mouldable?

Can you point me in the direction of studies that talk of these physiological differences?

Edited April 17, 2006 by jamman

[jamman]

Can you go back to your original post and tell us what bothers you so much exactly?

My original post was a question. While I do have strong opinions of my own regarding the answer to that question, I am prepared to be educated and surprised. In the last topic that I started, about differences in language allowing for differences in nuance, many of the posters educated and surprised me, and I learned that the Thai language in some ways allows for greater nuance of expression.

In this post, my question is do people think that the concept of Face impedes creative thought. A few people think that it can enhance it, in the same way that if you put up orange pilons barricading a straightaway, you enhance the skill of the driver who now has to manoever around them.

I still disagree with that position though - I think it is more rare for someone within their own culture to think in terms of manoevering around obstacles. I think most people just learn to shrug their shoulders a lot and say "mai pen rai" over and over.

[Plus]

Can you point me in the direction of studies that talk of these physiological differences?

Not at his time of the day, or rather night, if you are in SEAsia as well.

So you discovered scientific proof that asians are dumb. So what? People will crucify you for this when they wake up, but apart from that, what else is knew?

Amazon tribes you are talking about can count to six only, fine, why don't you analize Peruvian tribes just a few thousand kilometeres away.

They have completely different notion of past and future. For them past is what they know, so it's in front of them, and future is what they don't know, so it's behind their backs. When they think about past they look "ahead", cos they've seen it already.

When you run into women problems - is it past or future? Will Peruvians look right in front of them and tell you what will happen?

[jdinasia]

Taking a piece of writing ABOUT writing ... and trying to make it about "Face" is plain silliness .....

It was misquoted through ommission (thankfully ... it was a dry paragraph to begin with)

Forbidden thought in Thailand? I don't know ANY forbidden thought ... there are some forbidden (taboo) topics of discussions .. either across age boundaries or other boundaries ... in polite company. These boundaries are set aside often.

But oi .... the madness that ensues

I pretty well answered right there .... but hey!

I think it is a very interesting question the OP has brought up, and that's all it was... a question.

I am sorry ... what was the "question"?

Are you really unable to see the question, JD? If so, it sure looks like you have some mental blocks and taboos limiting your vision.

Do you agree, or disagree with Orwell, that if there are some things we are not supposed to think or say, it will in generall hamper our overall ability to think creatively? Do you think that Face makes it harder to discuss some things publicly? If yes to #1 and yes to #2, shouldn't the conclusion be that Face hampers free thinking and free expression?

Read through your original post and point out the question ......

but now that you posted it here ...I do disagree with your conclusions about Orwell and what he was saying. He was stating that a writer needed to free himself from taboos to write creatively ... (I disagree with that as well --- but it is the context of what he was writing)

Do I think that "face" makes it more difficult todiscuss things publicly? Yes again ... Face and "greeng jai" are related and perhaps similar to people that do not quite understand them. They are not the same. How can one "lose face" by telling a story? One CAN cause someone else to lose face and "greeng jai" will often prevent that but again what does it have to do with telling a story?

Your conclusion yet agains states that you are NOT asking a question .... but stating an opinion "Face hampers free thinking and free expression. (Not that those 2 things are related either. What someone chooses to express is not the same thing as their ability to think).

Did you really THINK this through? or did you just expect people to agree out of Greeng jai?

The original post asked the question does Face make people boring. Below are some other negative consequences to face that I've noticed.

hmmmmmm add what follows and WOW!

I do now understand that you didn't "get" what I was talking about ... that Greeng jai and face are different ... you aren't dealing with Thais ...

but please can you once again tell me where the bold highlighted question is in your original post?

Edited April 17, 2006 by jdinasia

[Plus]

I think it is more rare for someone within their own culture to think in terms of manoevering around obstacles.

Manoevering around obstacles in your own culture? That comes naturally, you don't think about it. People don't think much about it... Well, Thais don't.

You, and me, as farangs, have to think about it a lot, sometimes, while in Thailand. Beyond that I don't see your point at all.

I'm retiring for the rest of the night.

Bye.

[jamman]

I do now understand that you didn't "get" what I was talking about ... that Greeng jai and face are different ... you aren't dealing with Thais ...

but please can you once again tell me where the bold highlighted question is in your original post?

The title of the OP is Does Face Make Creative Thought Impossible?, George Orwell thinks that Thais are boring

I already explained that I when I said the George Orwell thinks that Thais are boring, I was being provocative, and assumed no one would take the statement literally. I was suggesting that his if you take his original premise as true, that taboos hinder creativity, it would follow that the taboos that Face sets up also limit creativity.

The title of the post asks "Does Face Make Creative Thought Impossible?" You put in bold highlighting this: "The original post asked the question does Face make people boring" . If someone is not capable of creative thought, they will be boring, in my mind. In my OP I suggested that not only can Thais in general not improvise a fictional story, they generally can't even narate their personal histories, and that the reason for this has its roots in the exagerated need to spare self and others embarassment. Such a person I would consider boring to talk to.

I'm trying to take you seriously, JD, but I wonder if you are deliberately being argumentative, just for the sake of it - you seem deaf to anything I say, and just look for ways to twist and disagree and even to insult me personally. As far as I can see, the points I made and questions I raised are straightforward and direct and uncomplicated. Do you fail to see the assumed and implied connections between someone who can't improvise a story and a boring person? Is it such hard work to make these connections - are they that buried in my post - must I point them out?

[jdinasia]

again ... I answered both questions you raised right on the beginning ... no I don't agree with Orwell's assertions .. in fact they are kinda silly.

BUT you didn't raise a question with your OP .... you made a statement. Seems clear that when you think in absolutes; That kills creativity.

To frame this closely ... To ask a question and then answer it is NOT asking a question ... it is building a platform to spout one's views

Your continuation of the thread about dealing with some of your "playmates" and how you treat the women in your life made it CLEAR what the agenda was. It is a good (VERY good) thing that your experience is what it is! The things you say you like about asian women are the flip-side of the coin about what you complain about!

But it doesn't surprise me that we have different views on this ... since my "more than playmate" is an IT pro/ Engineer/ IT Security specialist. The Thais I know are for the most part interesting credible people ... not the shallow vapid "up 2 U" asians that you seem to know!

[Donz]

Im a mix of Sth Korean and British.

Does that make me a absolute genius from birth?

Jamman, whats your take on halfies? are we better then everyone?

[jamman]

But it doesn't surprise me that we have different views on this ... since my "more than playmate" is an IT pro/ Engineer/ IT Security specialist. The Thais I know are for the most part interesting credible people ... not the shallow vapid "up 2 U" asians that you seem to know!

That's great - good on you! I'm trying to meet respectable and interesting people myself, and have made the conscious choice to prune out of my life people that take more than they give. Great to hear of your supportive and enjoyable companionship.

[jamman]

Im a mix of Sth Korean and British.

Does that make me a absolute genius from birth?

Jamman, whats your take on halfies? are we better then everyone?

Halfies are hot!