Does Face Make Creative Thought Impossible?

[meemiathai]

jamman, what you said doesn't seem to really have answered my questions.(or maybe I ain't bright enough) You merely stated what YOU think is important in life. What YOU think is interesting in life. You didn't give me an example on how this 'face' thing hinders 'creative thought'. You didn't answer the rest of the questions.

People and actually everything are born with different capabilities. So wouldn't it be naive to expect everyone to think in the same direction? For example, would you expect a dog to think "who will I see tomorrow morning?"? Does that make a dog value less in this world? Will you say that the dog is "boring"?

Honestly speaking, I don't disagree with you saying "Asians are not straightforward.". Generally they aren't, but not all(talking about HK chinese here). But it might require you to speak fluently their language in order to meet these people. And also I've found many people acting differently with me from others when they have discovered me as a very straightforward person. So have you ever made any effort to change others behaviour?

Sorry that my post is not very well organised. Hope you get what I'm trying to say. I actually have a lot more to say but I have to sleep.

[jdinasia]

I don't see how face suppresses creativity. When face is involved, being blunt or brutally honest is out of the question, forcing people to instead think of a face saving way to deal with the situation.

I think if anything, rote learning in schools suppresses creativity, and the need to be creative sometimes in order to maintain face offsets that handicap somewhat.

cv

I would tend to agree that rote learning IS an issue ... one could make a point about rote learning having more to do with Face than the OP's article about writing though.

[jamman]

jamman, what you said doesn't seem to really have answered my questions.(or maybe I ain't bright enough) You merely stated what YOU think is important in life. What YOU think is interesting in life. You didn't give me an example on how this 'face' thing hinders 'creative thought'. You didn't answer the rest of the questions.

People and actually everything are born with different capabilities. So wouldn't it be naive to expect everyone to think in the same direction? For example, would you expect a dog to think "who will I see tomorrow morning?"? Does that make a dog value less in this world? Will you say that the dog is "boring"?

Honestly speaking, I don't disagree with you saying "Asians are not straightforward.". Generally they aren't, but not all(talking about HK chinese here). But it might require you to speak fluently their language in order to meet these people. And also I've found many people acting differently with me from others when they have discovered me as a very straightforward person. So have you ever made any effort to change others behaviour?

Sorry that my post is not very well organised. Hope you get what I'm trying to say. I actually have a lot more to say but I have to sleep.

Hi.

Once again, my faculties are enhanced because I'm disinhibited by drink, and they are lessended, because I can't focus as well.

Ya, I stated what I think is important. That isn't necessarily so subjective as to be meaningless. It's not like opinions are meaningless fashions. Some things are actually more important than other things, by virtue of their being more relevant to the whole of us.

Let's look at music as an example. Is some music more meaningful and important than other music? The history of music is a history of innovation and discovery. All music, no matter how innovative, springs from and incorporates what was there at the time. New styles incorporate the old styles, and add and change and enhance. A musical historian will trace a progression, from drum beats to rhythms to melodies to knowledge of scales to harmonies and on and on. Drum beats are powerful and meaningful, and always will be, but songs are more popular because they resonate with more of our full experience. We like the words, we like the separation of chorus and musical story, we like harmonies and melodies - all these things resonate with more of what we are than a drum beat ever will. And yet, a drum beat can still transport us powerfully.

I'm not saying drums are small or weak, just that melodies are also worth feeling. Literature is an aquired taste, as is meditation. But once aquired, we feel as if we have learned a language that speaks to us in new and deeper ways.

As for directness and indirectness, I'm doing my best to be patient, but sometimes I equate it with a class thing. In the west, the higher classes tend to have strict regulation on honesty. I am not talking about the richer business classes, I'm talking about the old style class of those that have ancient value systems of personal rightousness. There are a lot of people who only want to associate with those of this same class - a class of people they can deal with and know what to expect - a class from whom they can have high expectations. Normal expectations.

In my family, at age three, my Dad wacked me solid for lying. It was bloody serious to lie. And that event happened in smaller degrees throughout all my associations with all my peers. Lying was never appreciated or rewarded - quite the opposite - a person could be severely ostracised for it.

As an analogy, if you train a dog, at first it is unruly, but after it learns its place, it settles down. It finds some contentment within boundaries. In a way it is happier, not running around, happier being controlled and steady. It has its place withing the family. Not lying also makes a person part of community. You have nothing to hide - you can be a right ######ing bastard, but at least you aren't pretending. People either accept you or not. Those that do are family. Those that don't don't matter anyway.

As for an effort to change others behaviour, I admit that yes, I do this, but in a very cruel way. I love people, and they fall in love with me, and they are never the same. We discover what it means to be human in deeply personal ways, and it always hurts. That is my job. That is what I do. I want to learn to do that better and better. It is in a way the same as talking on this forum. I will spare nothing - nothing - to get to the deepest heart of the matter. And that always means pain. Either embarassment, or love.

Edited April 20, 2006 by jamman

[jamman]

You didn't give me an example on how this 'face' thing hinders 'creative thought'. You didn't answer the rest of the questions.

As for how face hinders creative thought, that is not direct. It is indirect. The more a person feels free to make associations, the more free are her associations. Making wild associations is the essence of being creative. Some poeple teach creativity, and to put it simply, the way to think creatively is to provoke wild associations. Then after you get lots of strange and useless new ideas, you can start to edit and chose the more interesting ones. What a taboo or any other hindrance to free thinking does is to start the editing process even before the creative process. You pre-edit out possibilities. One aspect of face, the aspect relating to not being embarassed or causing embarassment, limits what can be said about others or about oneself.

Some people on the forum say that such limits can increase creativity - you need creative solutions to deal with these limits. Yes, sometimes actually limits do increase creativity - they provide enough focus to generate ideas where before all there was blank attention. Limits can enhance creativity by heightening focus. But a taboo limit is different, if one identifies with the taboo, and really believes that the thoughts are wrong.

- for instance another poster mentione a book with the backdrop being the Catholic society. If the writer was able to clearly see and write about Catholic society, they were not dragged down by Catholic taboos - they were able to see and speak about them. Only if they personally identified with the society to the degree that they felt it was inappropriate to accurately describe it would they be under the power of taboo.

So a person can be diplomatic, and transcend the notion of embarassment - but I think most of us instead would simply be truly embarassed and truly avoid embarrasing others. We aren't really being diplomatic, as much as simply avoiding being embarrased, and lying to others. We fragment ourselves, and put this face forward to this person, believing that is who we are, then put another face forward to another, believing again that is who we are. We never make one full person out of ourselves. That isn't just diplomacy, it is convenience.

[jamman]

fully accepting that the self is fully responsible for everything that happens to onean You are correct but CAN YOU CHANGE?

That idea is a bit tricky. There is a Buddhist slogan, a powerful, useful, profound and accurate slogan, that says "Drive all blames into oneself". It was described to me to mean that in all situations, one is only responsible for their own actions, and try to see all outcomes as relating to only what you put into the situation. Take all responsibility.

Once, at a meditation retreat with a gathering of about 500, it was put to a visiting Tibetan teacher how can everyone take full responsibility? If I am solely responsible for the boss getting angry, how can also the secretary be solely responsible, and the boss be soley responsible?

His answer was that just pretend you are the one responsible, take that as your view. No matter if someone else has responsibility, don't focus on that. You see, the slogan is a mindfullness training, a way to break the habit of blaming others, but it is not an accurate representation of an external world. In the real world, we all interpentetrate each other to such a degree that we can't even accurately say where the self begins and others end. Responsibility is as vague as a real self to hold responsibility.

People are not responsible for everything that happens to them. We do not, and never will fully create our reality. Only psychotics fully create their reality. The rest of us need day jobs.

As for your question can I change, I'm not sure what you are getting at. Is this it? That if I feel the need to critisize anyone, there is some underlying problem, and since I can only change myself, I should change myself, and not bother to critisize others? If that is it, I strongly disagree. I think describing things as accurately as possible is always the best beginning, and being critical can always be a part of that. Self and other is sort of arbitrary. I suck, others suck, I'm part of society, society is part of what I'm in - I am free to see flaws in all of it.

Edited April 20, 2006 by jamman

[elkangorito]

If anyone thinks that 'life is a program that goes on & on', then I would suggest that they could be mistaken.

ALL things happen from the THOUGHT THEY ARE HAVING NOW...IN THIS MOMENT!!!

How else did things like the Sydney Harbour Bridge, the Golden Gate bridge, the Sydney Opera House, the 2nd World War & the Iraq War happen? All of these things were created from ONE person having ONE thought...IN THAT MOMENT!!! These thoughts may be seconds apart or years apart but nonetheless, they are all AUTHENTIC & ORIGINAL thoughts.

How can you change the thought you had 10 minutes ago? You can't! It exists in the past. How can you change the thought you are going to have? You can't! It doesn't exist yet. Therefore, the only thing you can change & have COMPLETE control over, is the THOUGHT YOU ARE HAVING NOW!!! You can control your thoughts...nobody else can. If you believe that others are in control of you, then I suggest that you CHOOSE the thoughts of others to influence you. I reiterate...this is a CHOICE! How can another control what you think unless you choose to be influenced?

As far as FACE is concerned, I agree with jamman in that this 'ideal' is stifling...but to whom? Do we not have the CHOICE to ignore, accept, deny or modify such external actions/ideas? Again, this is a CHOICE...but not without reactions. Who is in control here? The 'others' or you? Do you not control your own thoughts? If not, is this because you are not prepared to CHANGE or deal with your CHOICE? This is simple. At the end of the day, you will be left with YOURSELF to deal with. Blaming others for your CHOICES will get you nowhere. There is only one person whom you can trust, love, have faith in, be with for the rest of your life & respect without question. THIS IS YOU!!!! Try it & see.

If a person does not believe that they are in complete control of their life, then by CHOICE, they choose to be controlled by external forces.

Mind you, there is nothing like a good debate. Also, it is quite human to live a life of difficulty. HAPPINESS does exist but not as an EQUATION that fits all the formulas. It exists as an individual reality. For example, criminals. These people consistantly defy the 'rules'. They do so without thinking about what others will do to them or what others think about them. Many will construe this as a form of 'insanity' but generally, these people are doing WHAT THEY WANT, WHEN THEY WANT!! Many people secretly envy criminals in this respect. Obviously, these criminals are doing what they think makes them happy.

George W Bush is doing the same thing.

Ok. I'll partially agree with you. FACE is not a good thing BUT it is something I can't change because it will change all by itself...& probably change faster if we leave it alone. IN THIS MOMENT, 'face' is not killing me. On the other hand & in some ways, it is enhancing my life because this is the first time I have been exposed to it. I will let this thing flow through me because I know that the world is so vast & ever changing. Life is TOTALLY unpredictable...& thankfully so.

[Zonneke]

Don't fret Jamman.....

You're not going mad, you cannot express any opinion on these boards that so much as hints at an attack on "thai " culture, without people jumping on their own silly little soapboxes and shouting as loud as possible, that there must be something wrong with you for even thinking such a thing.. I cannot for the life of me work put why though. Usually only ignorant and uneducated people think and behave like that, and I know for a fact there are some very clever people on these forums, so go figure!!

I think it is a very interesting question the OP has brought up, and that's all it was... a question.

I agree with this statement.

To me the point is proven by the reactions of the Asian members.

by the way ... Goerge Orwell is a famous writer, he predicted in his book "1984" how the world was evolving, his fame came because he was right for a large portion.

something completly different, but important to this subject.

I believe the East is more female and the West more masculine.

Very important difference between the Wesy and China for example: in art school:

in the West they will teach you that you need to be creative, whatever you do, be original, don't copy !!!

in China, they still copy the same paintings like they did 3.000 years ago ...

that's the mean reason why the west has always dominated the world and always will

I'm not saying that the west is superior, but it's a fundamental difference!

[siam-i-am]

Don't fret Jamman.....

You're not going mad, you cannot express any opinion on these boards that so much as hints at an attack on "thai " culture, without people jumping on their own silly little soapboxes and shouting as loud as possible, that there must be something wrong with you for even thinking such a thing.. I cannot for the life of me work put why though. Usually only ignorant and uneducated people think and behave like that, and I know for a fact there are some very clever people on these forums, so go figure!!

I think it is a very interesting question the OP has brought up, and that's all it was... a question.

I agree with this statement.

To me the point is proven by the reactions of the Asian members.

by the way ... Goerge Orwell is a famous writer, he predicted in his book "1984" how the world was evolving, his fame came because he was right for a large portion.

something completly different, but important to this subject.

I believe the East is more female and the West more masculine.

Very important difference between the Wesy and China for example: in art school:

in the West they will teach you that you need to be creative, whatever you do, be original, don't copy !!!

in China, they still copy the same paintings like they did 3.000 years ago ...

that's the mean reason why the west has always dominated the world and always will

I'm not saying that the west is superior, but it's a fundamental difference!

Well done Jamman. What a topic! and how many ends does a stick have? Most seem to have got hold of the wrong one. (probably including me) In answer to your question the only logical answer is yes. Its not racial its culture and what is culture? A polite way of saying brain washing through generations. Face as it is called in Thailand is when the child becomes aware of the id. Once a child is aware of its name being called in a crowded room its capable of losing Face, you tease, mock, scold, him/her embarrassment can be seen in blushing or through tears, this before the baby can talk. In the west were encouraged to brush it off with laughter etc, alas those without a sense of humour can lash out. In Thailand it becomes embellished in all they do. Dont ask the teacher why (he may not know) In any case you lose face for asking. Don't suggest to the boss a better way even though you can save thosands the boss must not lose face. They go through life like a can of shaken soda sooner or later! ...Will the Thais learn to take Face from the cradle to the nursery instead of the grave? Ask Jamman cause Orwell aint saying.

[mark45y]

My apologies if this has been posted before. I think I worked my way through this thread but I might have missed a couple of pages.

I had twenty appointments with Thai people last week and they were all on time plus or minus five minutes.

I listen to original Thai music all day long on the radio.

I watch original Thai TV shows, drama, sit com and so on at night on TV.

I go to Thai movies and watch original scripts and music.

I went into a Thai book store yesterday and counted at least 1000 Thai fiction books.

I have had at least 50 Thai women make up original stories on the spot. The most bizarre works of fiction about relatives and water buffalos.

I have heard Thai politicians make up on the spot fantastic works of fiction.

I have seen thousands of original Thai paintings.

I have seen thousands of examples of new modern Thai architecture in buildings and homes and hotels.

I have watched Thai chefs create fusion food that is both new, tasty and beautiful.

I have watched Thais carve in wood beautiful modern pieces.

I believe most of the above examples are all about creativity. I could go on but I thought at this juncture I should check and see if I am missing the point.

[elkangorito]

My apologies if this has been posted before. I think I worked my way through this thread but I might have missed a couple of pages.

I had twenty appointments with Thai people last week and they were all on time plus or minus five minutes.

I listen to original Thai music all day long on the radio.

I watch original Thai TV shows, drama, sit com and so on at night on TV.

I go to Thai movies and watch original scripts and music.

I went into a Thai book store yesterday and counted at least 1000 Thai fiction books.

I have had at least 50 Thai women make up original stories on the spot. The most bizarre works of fiction about relatives and water buffalos.

I have heard Thai politicians make up on the spot fantastic works of fiction.

I have seen thousands of original Thai paintings.

I have seen thousands of examples of new modern Thai architecture in buildings and homes and hotels.

I have watched Thai chefs create fusion food that is both new, tasty and beautiful.

I have watched Thais carve in wood beautiful modern pieces.

I believe most of the above examples are all about creativity. I could go on but I thought at this juncture I should check and see if I am missing the point.

Is this the 'right hand side' of the brain versus the 'left hand side' of the brain? Or is it the fact that most of these folks have never had to think 'logically' like a westerner, until recently? What do you think? Your comments would be appreciated.

Edited April 23, 2006 by elkangorito

[mark45y]

Are you asking if I think Thais think logically? Or are you asking if I think Thais think like a Western person? Too many vague words. Too many different meanings possible. Ask me if I think Thais build large office buildings with the same methods of construction as the West? Yes. Ask me if I think Thais produce creative TV shows and write advertising and sell media time the same way as done in the West? Yes. Thais do creative and technical tasks much like they are done in the West?

[kuhnk]

On a flight from Bangkok to Phuket a Thai women I was traveling with told me "Thai never invent anything themselves, always copy from another country, I think Thai mind not inovative or creative"

[mark45y]

On a flight from Bangkok to Phuket a Thai women I was traveling with told me "Thai never invent anything themselves, always copy from another country, I think Thai mind not inovative or creative"

That is not at all true. It is not even close to being true. On a plane to Chiang Mai a Thai women told me that Thais invented many things every day.

There is a hidden message here.

[kuhnk]

On a flight from Bangkok to Phuket a Thai women I was traveling with told me "Thai never invent anything themselves, always copy from another country, I think Thai mind not inovative or creative"

That is not at all true. It is not even close to being true. On a plane to Chiang Mai a Thai women told me that Thais invented many things every day.

There is a hidden message here.

I don't think it is true either, I know for a fact that Thai culture have created my beautiful works of art and I know they did a wonderful job on the BTS skytrain project. I am not sure if she was speaking of tecnology or what because I didnt really persue it that far.

" On a plane to Chiang Mai a Thai women told me that Thais invented many things every day."

What do you say this for, sarcasm ? You think I make it up? I am just relating something what a Thai person told me. I am a little surprized myself that a Thai person would say that. What is the "hidden message?"

[kuhnk]

" On a plane to Chiang Mai a Thai women told me that Thais invented many things every day."

"What do you say this for, sarcasm ? You think I make it up?"

Sorry I realized after I posted that I perhaps was being a bit defensive and misunderstood you and that a women really did speak those things to you on a flight to Chiang Mai.

If that is so then the "hidden message" might just be that Thai people have different views on their society.

[elkangorito]

Are you asking if I think Thais think logically? Or are you asking if I think Thais think like a Western person? Too many vague words. Too many different meanings possible. Ask me if I think Thais build large office buildings with the same methods of construction as the West? Yes. Ask me if I think Thais produce creative TV shows and write advertising and sell media time the same way as done in the West? Yes. Thais do creative and technical tasks much like they are done in the West?

Did you not see the question marks in my post?

[jamman]

My apologies if this has been posted before. I think I worked my way through this thread but I might have missed a couple of pages.

I had twenty appointments with Thai people last week and they were all on time plus or minus five minutes.

I listen to original Thai music all day long on the radio.

I watch original Thai TV shows, drama, sit com and so on at night on TV.

I go to Thai movies and watch original scripts and music.

I went into a Thai book store yesterday and counted at least 1000 Thai fiction books.

I have had at least 50 Thai women make up original stories on the spot. The most bizarre works of fiction about relatives and water buffalos.

I have heard Thai politicians make up on the spot fantastic works of fiction.

I have seen thousands of original Thai paintings.

I have seen thousands of examples of new modern Thai architecture in buildings and homes and hotels.

I have watched Thai chefs create fusion food that is both new, tasty and beautiful.

I have watched Thais carve in wood beautiful modern pieces.

I believe most of the above examples are all about creativity. I could go on but I thought at this juncture I should check and see if I am missing the point.

We've had very different experiences. I prefer yours.

Do you see any cultural differences at all?

Do you think it is possible that some cultural traits could be preferable to others?

[mark45y]

I see a lot of cultural differences but not a lot in the area of creativity. There are a lot of differences in creativity but not in the basic creative instinct.

I see many cultural differences having to do with the family.

To do an adequate job of comparing the two cultures would take quite a bit of writing and my experience only covers certain areas.

There are also regional differences in Thailand. My education is in Cultural Anthropology and Sociology dealing with ethnic minorities so I have a tendency to look at the minorities in Thailand. My first exposure to Thailand was at such a young impressionable age that I was less in culture shock from the Thais but rather the West when I returned there.

As far as some cultural traits being preferable to others. I realize that most of the traits of a culture have a meaning and a reason in that culture even though I perhaps don’t understand them completely. So even though I don’t agree with them I don’t think about changing them.

Sometimes if you mess with just one little thing it changes a whole lot of other things.