Interesting article on Pakistan's gay scene

[catmac]

Came upon this item on BBC World which I found quite an eye-opener. I've experienced a similar scene in India, but never really thought that it was going on in their Muslim neighbour....... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/23811826

Pity that both countries are saddled with the old Colonial laws, certainly India would have opened up a long time ago without them.

[Scott]

The region is very interesting from a gay point of view. I spent a number of years there and found it to be enigmatic. Gay sex is never talked about, but it is all over the place.

[Jingthing]

The region is very interesting from a gay point of view. I spent a number of years there and found it to be enigmatic. Gay sex is never talked about, but it is all over the place.

Surely they must have euphemisms for it. Can you share?

[Scott]

That I don't know -- my knowledge of the languages is just too limited, but I spent time a fair amount of time in Iraq, Turkey and Syria (Turkey and Syria were particularly active). Iraq was pretty dangerous at the time, so I always had guards etc. Iran was fairly closeted and underground, but definitely available.

For Afghanistan you might want to Google Bachi Bazzi to get a view on how things go there. Some of the military men complained about the Afghani's always getting high (opium/heroin) and screwing each other.

I think the article pretty well sums up the area. You can 'mess around' but it's best not to be identified as being gay. Being a foreigner has it's advantages in that they know you are not the police.

I would think that as you get older, life would be more difficult for gays in that part of the world.

Different people are probably going to have different experiences and it's always best to be very, very discreet.

[LeCharivari]

That I don't know -- my knowledge of the languages is just too limited, but I spent time a fair amount of time in Iraq, Turkey and Syria (Turkey and Syria were particularly active). Iraq was pretty dangerous at the time, so I always had guards etc. Iran was fairly closeted and underground, but definitely available.

For Afghanistan you might want to Google Bachi Bazzi to get a view on how things go there. Some of the military men complained about the Afghani's always getting high (opium/heroin) and screwing each other.

I think the article pretty well sums up the area. You can 'mess around' but it's best not to be identified as being gay. Being a foreigner has it's advantages in that they know you are not the police.

I would think that as you get older, life would be more difficult for gays in that part of the world.

Different people are probably going to have different experiences and it's always best to be very, very discreet.

Iraq has become far more homophobic than it was under Saddam Hussein, or even pre-Saddam. Prior to 2003 it was the most liberal of the Gulf countries (excluding Israel) as far as tolerance of homosexuality was concerned.

"Bachi Bazzi" is very much a one-sided view of Afghanistan, and is as much of a "view on how things go there" as Sunee Plaza's few remaining go-go bars is of Thailand.

"Bachi bazzi" (basically gay pedophilia) became more prevalent in the power vacuum after the Soviets left in 1989 before the Taliban started taking over in 1994-5 and was one of the reasons for their popularity (at least initially) - many of the warlords who filled the power vacuum abused their position by raping and en-slaving young girls and boys at will and it did not go down well, and the Taliban put an end to this. Homosexuality (as we in the West see it) is widespread in Afghanistan and it is also widely misunderstood - Cardinalli's report for the US military concluding that these boys were being used as "recruits" by the Taliban and other terrorist organisations was a total mis-reading of the situation and an example of just how wrong an outsider who neither speaks the language nor understands the religion or culture or who is fighting who can be. It's pretty different to Pakistan, so I won't de-rail this thread by going into comparisons unless asked to do so, but I did "spend a fair amount of time there".

http://www.sfgate.com/opinion/brinkley/article/Afghanistan-s-dirty-little-secret-3176762.php

[Scott]

The comment was a response to another poster.

Continue disruption of a discussion with combative and argumentative and trollish type posts will result in a suspension.

[LeCharivari]

Interestingly, catmac, this has long been the case in Pakistan as similarly reported by the BBC a few years ago http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/4583911.stm in an article headed "Gay Pakistan less inhibited than the West". In my own experience in the area, including Pakistan, what we in the West often imagine is happening is often some way from reality.

One unfortunate aspect of gay life in Pakistan is the intervention of the West "in support" of local gays, as highlighted an another BBC article http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-14010106, which according to Islamic radicals links gays with the West which is certainly not in their interests at the moment. That policy has now changed, but the damage has already been done.

[Jingthing]

It seems to me the U.S. embassies voicing support for gay HUMAN RIGHTS and against persecution of gay people is a GOOD THING anywhere and anytime. I SUPPORT my government's leadership under President Obama to speak out AGAIN and AGAIN for gay HUMAN RIGHTS in every nation on the planet, including Muslim ones like Pakistan.

I am responding here to the link provided by LC in the last post.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Jingthing

[Jingthing]

We'll have to agree to disagree. American leadership under Obama (and Hillary Clinton before) for international gay HUMAN RIGHTS is the right thing to do. Period.

[Jingthing]

Who said anything about dictating to other countries?