Learn Thai?

[Pink Mist]

This is not a bad site, it's run by a group of school kids as a project I gather.

Dont let that put you off it is very professional and there are lots of learning aids, free and purchaseable.

learning Thai

[mrmnp]

Many thanks to the many posters who encouraged me to overcome my fear of the compexities of tones. I am in my first week of study.

Thank you bronco, it is a great free site, I also purchased Becker's book and tapes. I am not thrilled with its presentation but it is a good starting point.

I am making my own flash cards as I learn the consonants and vowels as I was unable to find any.

As I indicated in my first post, I have always thought I had a good "ear" for languages and had no difficulty with Japanese or Spanish sounds. Of course they have the same vowel sounds and I grew up listenign to the Japanese language, that might have had something to do with it.

As I previewed Thai prior to posting, I found a wide variety in the books on how to phonetically express Thai sounds in English. Also, Thai friends teaching me Thai words were a puzzle to my ear and I rarely could differentiate the differences between many of the words nor could I mimic or "parrot" them.

So, I decided to learn the Thai alphabet and tones first, perhaps a little in a vacum now, but with the Becker tapes and my Thai friends help, I hope to be able to pronounce the words correctly from the written Thai as I learn the vocabulary and the grammar.

I have already concluded, as I should have from the posts, that the context of the sentence will help a Thai trying to understand my tones, which will be far from perfect for a long time. My Thai friend said Thais are lazy in pronouncing their language so they too may not be close to the ideal tone, especially the rising and falling ones, if the word meaning is not controlled thereby, ie the same sound meaning two different words depending on whether it is falling or rising or level.

I have no timetable on learning the alphabet or anything else. I have noticed that many of the Thia letters are written the same except for a "cleft"head. Makes it alot easier. The Japanese phonetic alphabet consists of 96 characters and in college we had to learn them in one semester, so the Thai alphabet isn't as bad as it seemed before I started.

Thanks again to all for your support.

[et33.com]

well, this is my first posting - i am now trying to learn thai on my own - i.e. by CDs and books - but it's hard without a partner... sigh... ((not in thailand yet...))

[Gatsby]

It's too bad that Glenn Slayden's site recently went down. It was far and away the most comrprehensive "talking" dictionary" type site. Some of you folks may want to try Courage softwares Thai CD. They just released a new version of it. I have the 1997 version and it is pretty ###### good. The course was designed for the military By Matt Courage, then released privately, kinda like FSI.

http://www.alphasoft.cc/thai.htm

[CalvinTan]

Hi I am Calvin here...

I will be stationed in bangkok office in a month's time.

Any advise for new kid in Bangkok?

I am starting to learn thailand and will be doing trading business for my company.

Hope anyone can offer some good advise for a start.

Thanks and regards to all kind people out there.

Regards,

Calvin

[Axel]

Calvin, to reply to your question would require me to write a whole book.

But then I believe you will be here on a legal basis, with visa and WP.

So my advice, tongue in cheek, don't listen to any old dinosaurier, look around, make up your own mind and make he best of it.

It's no joke, I mean it. Welcome an dgood luck!

[ASIC]

At present I can read Thai quite well and at reasonable speed. I can even sing along on the occasional karaoke and follow the subtitles on UBC. However, my vocabulary is limited and the pronounciation is a problem at times. Vocabulary can be extended with a dictionary, but what about sentence structure? I hate books on gramar.

I know I am learning the language "backwards" if you will. My problem is the text books. I find it very difficult to read Thai when written using roman characters. First of all, it doesn't give the proper pronounciation and secondly, most books use "english" romanization. I am not a native English speaker, and it's difficult to juggle three languages at the same time. I.e. the Thai word for "good" is written "Dee" and not "Di" as would be used in most non-english speaking European languages.

Are there any books out there for a "backwards" learner? I have tried using Thai books teaching English, but that's not really ideal either.

ASIC

[OzBanChang]

Hi All

I've tried the Becker books, and found they get bogged down pretty quickly. I tried a tape system for German, which seems similar to the "Pimsleur Approach", and they were great.

Has anyone tried these for Thai, and with what degree of success,

Cheers

OBC

[NedKelly]

HeyAsic, i think yo uneed to have a break from the written language for a while. I found that my reading and writing overook my speaking. So what I did was have a break for a year and just concentrated on speakiong as much as possible. I mean you shoul dget out and practice with real situations to pick up your structures......maybe learn one sentence a week and build on that. It takes times and you will find that after a while things start to link and fall into place. Remember you may never learn everything.

[sabaijai]

Another good website for Thai language learning tips and materials is Thai-Language.com. One thing I like about the site is that there are objective reviews of the more popular texts/tapes, etc out there.

Many years ago I did a graduate degree in applied linguistics, basically focusing on how people learn foreign languages. Naturally I had to read a number of research studies, among them one that tested the idea that ability in music and learning tonal languages might be related.

As it turns out, the study I read found no correlation whatsoever. People good at music weren't necessarly good at learning tonal languages (or any languages for that matter), and vice versa. Of course a few fortunate folks are good at both. So, tones = music appears to be a myth, one that appeals to the intuition but is difficult to support rationally.

I know several farang Thai speakers whose Thai tones are beautiful but who can't sing or play an instrument to save their lives. And I know a couple of pro farang musicians who have lived in Thailand 10 years or more and can barely speak Thai.

It's another myth that English, Spanish, etc don't have tonal qualities. Tone shifts in these languages do in fact have semiotic content, in fact it's probably a lot harder to learn correct English tonality (which varies according to dialect, eg, Standard British English, Standard Malay English, Standard American English, etc, but then Thai tones vary according to dialect, too) than it is to learn Thai tones. Tonal content in Thai, Chinese, Laos, etc is word-linked, while tonality in European languages if more register-linked, situational, etc.

Ever had trouble understanding a Singaporean speak English, even when it's his native tongue? Some of the phonemes are different from UK or USA or Aussie English to be sure, but more than that it's the tonal shifts.

The fact that each of us speaks our mother tongue fluently suggest we have the capacity to speak any language fluently. One positive correlation researchers have found among those who appear to be 'good' at learning foreign languages is that they typically grew up hearing more than one language, even if they didn't learn the languages they were exposed to. This suggests that 'problem learners' are encumbered by a psychological/sociolinguistic barrier that prevents them from progressing very far in a foreign language. With increased exposure to Thai, such barriers should be overcome.

I've been in Thailand 27 years and can think of very few examples of farangs who threw themselves into learning Thai and didn't succeed at least well enough to 'get by' in everyday conversation. The ones that went at it hammer and tong typically become fluent (using fluent here in its everyday meaning, ie, conversing without breaks in comprehension that stop communication, not 'native fluency' which is another animal altogether).

I say stop making excuses and go for it!

[Up2U]

I recently read an article that said when they looked at the brains of people who speak tonal languages, the part of the brain used for that function was using the same part of the brain we non-tonals use for music. Well, thats a good excuse if your not musically inclined.

Is that why Thai music is so bloody awful ?

[mrentoul]

The ones that went at it hammer and tong typically become fluent (using fluent here in its everyday meaning, ie, conversing without breaks in comprehension that stop communication, not 'native fluency' which is another animal altogether).

A useful distinction, and a terrific post, thank you.

One positive correlation researchers have found among those who appear to be 'good' at learning foreign languages is that they typically grew up hearing more than one language, even if they didn't learn the languages they were exposed to

I know a woman here who grew up in the Netherlands and has Berber roots. She was exposed to a bunch of languages, and can speak English, Spanish, Dutch, German and French. Needless to say, she finds plenty of (well-paid) work as a translator!

This suggests that 'problem learners' are encumbered by a psychological/sociolinguistic barrier that prevents them from progressing very far in a foreign language. With increased exposure to Thai, such barriers should be overcome.

I suspect some people are held back by a lack of self-confidence. I liken speaking a language which is not your own to stage acting. You have to get used to hearing yourself say foreign sounds, and say them in an animated way (appropriate to context). After a while those 'foreign' sounds become your own.

Sometimes it does feel as if you are on a stage. You send out a message and trust the response you get back will be enough to enable you to carry on (with the conversation, play or whatever).

[meadish_sweetball]

Regarding second language acquisition - age IS a factor, but your determination to learn is much more important - as tutsiwarrior puts it, if you are lazy, your learning capabilities amount to zilch anyway, because you are not going to employ them.

Some general reflections: Gatsby's book suggestions are good. If you spend a lot of time online, and would like a more academic approach to Thai, http://www.seasite.niu.edu/Thai/default.htm is a really good place to start, as well. It has plenty of resources trying to cater to different people's needs.

About tones: To be non-musical does not mean you will not be able to learn phonemic tones.

If we assume that these musicality and the ability to master tonal languages actually occupy the same part of the brain, then that should mean that an unusually high number of Thais would be superior singers and instrumentalists. This is surely not the case, as evidenced by soi Karaoke bars in the evenings. Yet, they speak Thai perfectly.

If you want Thais to understand you more or less instantly, you should make an effort to learn the tones, and do it NOW, because your initial speech habits will be very hard to erase in the future, believe me.

We all learn differently, but when it comes to tones, I find that drilling is the best method. Listen and repeat, listen and repeat. Find a native teacher and force him/her to correct you every time you make a mistake. Start with the words in isolation. Listen to a tape, or have a native speaker pronounce different words with the same tone, then repeat, and try again... and again.

The tone drills on the "Teach yourself Thai" tapes are what made my spoken Thai what it is today.

I would construct phrases containing all words with the same tone, like "house number five" - "bâan lêek thîi hâa" and repeat them until I went blue in the face. Once you can produce the tones clearly in isolation and also hear them yourselves (when someone exaggerates them), then start on phrases comining different tones.

Of course, without correct tones, you may still be able to make yourself understood once you are speaking in proper sentence structures and using everyday expressions, in an expected environment.

You will find it exceedingly hard to venture out of the everyday situations and express anything more abstract though. You will also find that people who speak with you often will understand, but strangers will not.

This is a constant source of frustration for some of my expat friends, and they put it down to the Thais "not paying attention", which is just a bad excuse. You will have to live with that your Thai will never be as good as a native's, and you will get used to that blank stare with open mouth (well, speaking English produces the same thing in many cases).

You will experience different problems with Thai depending on what your mother tongue is.

Generally speaking, you will probably find it easier to learn how to pronounce Thai if your mother tongue is a Germanic language - these European languages contain more vowel sounds than the Romance languages, and vowel length is a phonemic trait, unlike in e.g. French, Italian or Spanish. This is not to suggest that Romance-language speakers cannot learn Thai, only that they may find it more difficult.

[meadish_sweetball]

I suspect some people are held back by a lack of self-confidence. I liken speaking a language which is not your own to stage acting. You have to get used to hearing yourself say foreign sounds, and say them in an animated way (appropriate to context). After a while those 'foreign' sounds become your own.

That is actually a very good simile. To really be able to speak a language, you need to show manners and produce sounds which at first seem unnatural and "affected".

I recall listening to my teacher speaking English with an exaggerated Oxford accent when I was in third grade, and hating it - because I thought she was "overdoing" it. When I finally was exposed to "real" English - my first live encounters and attempts at communication with Canadian and British kids though, I noticed that this "act" of hers was actually very accurate.

I think it is a human instinct to take shortcuts - most Swedes for example, will pronounce "rise" and "rice" the same way (absence of voiced s - [z] in Swedish).

Many French people have a problem with pronouncing "th" in "those" and "thing" (no such sound in French).

To speak correctly, "overacting" in the beginning will help.

The best language learners are often the ones who are not too scared of losing prestige or "face" in their communication.

Don't hold back - fully try to mimic the Thais when they say something, tone, facial expression, body pose - everything! Language is not only words on paper, not only sounds - it is much more than that.

[mrentoul]

Once you can produce the tones clearly in isolation and also hear them yourselves (when someone exaggerates them), then start on phrases comining different tones.

This is good advice, though before you can start experimenting with tonal combinations you will need to find someone who can tell you how to construct the tones in the first place.

Few textbooks go into detail on how to do this, and it takes a while to get the rules into your head. As the poster above says, mimickry is important. Try out different sounds - different ways of pitching a tone - until you find the one that 'works'.

A friend of mine (a Thai-Indian) likes to plot the tones on a blank piece of sheet music (the six horizontal lines - can't remember what they are called now) to show where each tone starts, how far to take it upwards, downwards, whatever, where the points of emphasis are, and how they differ from each other.

Another way of studying the same thing is to look at sonograms, which are charts that record the way someone's voice changes as he enunciates a tone.

Here's a link on sonograms which should help, by someone affiliated with thai-language.com.

http://www.lurkertech.com/chris/thai/pronunciation/

Here, you will here a farang practising the tones, and a native Thai speaker. The farang's tones are pretty awful, especially his high tone. This is one area where he needs to practise...he's not 'acting' it enough!

I wrote an email for someone a while back on tones. Message me and I'll send it to you.

Good luck.

[Zendesigner]

Hoy,

Anybody know where i can get the pimsleur tapes or cd's in Chiangmai ??

B

[meadish_sweetball]

Zendesigner:

I would try Suriwong book store on Thanon Sridonchay or the small book shop on Thaphae Road, which I think is a local branch of Asia books... not sure about this though.

All I know is that they stock a good deal of material on learning Thai, as well as books on South-East Asia in general.

Failing that, I am not sure. DK books has a bit as well (coming from Thaphae Gate passing the entrance to Loi Kroh Road, continue until you see the DK books (Duang kamol Books) sign on your left (the moat is on your right).

www.amazon.com might actually be an option - you should check if they ship this particular thing to Thailand and what it would cost - I ordered books from there which arrived in good order.

[Zendesigner]

Hi meadisch

Thanks for the info, i'll have a look tomorrow.

amazon is not possible for me , don't have an internet working credit card anymore. These thai cards don't work there and i've been told i need half a million bath in the bank to apply for one ??

B

[Gatsby]

The Thai version of the Pimsluer course is unfortunately only available on cassette. I would try to borrow a friends card and use Amazon. The standard price for the 10 cassetter course is $99.99. Amazon sells it for $60 US. I have looked in every major chain store in BKK and have never seen the course available.

[natee1]

I have found it very frustrating looking for English-Thai dictionaries, since I can't read Thai. The one to get for people like me is Mike Simpson - The English-Thai dictionary 3 in 1 English-pronunciation-Thai.

I think I got it at Asia Books

[tutsiwarrior]

lots of people on this thread mentioning ordering books, etc from the internet, ie. amazon.com. When you go to the post office to pick up your order what is there to deal with in terms of taxes, customs charges and etc? Same apply to videos?

[Yohan]

I do it in my own way. My pronunciation was never a good one - regardless if Japanese, Chinese or Thai.

First of all, I am studying, how to write.... Living here in Japan, there is no native Thai speaker around me....After arriving in Thailand, I have some problems to make myself understood.... however I know the word how it is written....I can write it down on a piece of paper....

k is not always k

a is not always a......

Western transcriptions are always confusing... but only the Thai writing is really clear...

k is not k - even a Thai child from the province will write 2 Thai words, which sound so similar or almost the same for us European by using different Thai letters.

Living abroad to learn about the Thai writing makes a lot sense to me. If you understand, it is different written, then you understand that something must be different with the way how it is spoken....

To be able to READ makes it often much easier for me in Thailand...I can read the informations written on the buses in Bangkok, I can read the labels in the supermarket, I can read simple written e-mails from my Thai friends and can write back in Thai... Often I need not to ask a Thai for more informations when visiting Thailand, as it is written somewhere at the counter....or in a leaflet.....or on the Thai internet pages....

If you feel you have problems to speak Thai, try to learn first more about the Thai writing and how to read the language...

Johann

[descartes]

My two euros worth of advice would be this.

Even if you never intend to read or write, learn the thai consonants and vowels.

Use "Thai Interactive Learning System" by Courage Software. Excellent random testing on these topics . You also get to learn get 44 new words while you are doing this.

Simply learning the alphabet is the ultimate aid to pronounciation, and is of pepetual value, unlike transliteration, which quickly becomes an impediment and a curse. You also become visually reliant on something that is not any standard. Also give you the basis for reading and writing, should you feel the need to do so.

With a bit of dedication, you could learn this in a month, and youll be picking out the letters in your everyday life

Beckers book is now out on CD, which means that you can loop sections to really hear the words and sentences, and like most people here, I rate this book very highly.

D

[Ajarn]

I think if you've come here to lead a quiet life with your Thai wife who speaks Thai and your native language, then it's quite easy to rely on your wife, as many I know do...My neighbor only speaks German- no English or Thaiat all, but his wife speaks German and Thai. I communicate with him through his wife, in Thai...He is quite content with his situation, it seems. But I find it slow and inconvenient to talk with him. I have two other foreigner friends whose Thai is better than their English, so we talk in Thai...

I couldn't image being here for so long and not learning Thai. My most pleasurable and memorable experiences would not have occured could I not communicate in Thai...

But that's me. I really enjoy talking with Thais whenever possible. Some others would rather lead more isolated lives here, I think. I am still so curious about life here, and I find Thais equally curious about my life, and how farangs think...

The problem with not speaking or understanding Thai is that you are forced to rely on translated, often filtered information. You are also relying on someone else to accurately communicate what you're saying, too. Very easy to get the wrong info, especially when it's a wife doing the translating.

I started at AUA in 1986 with Ajarn Oranute, who is still a teacher there. Highly recommended for the serious student. She's a great teacher, and starts your learning by helping you to build a good foundation in the language.... After many years of living here, I still don't consider myself fluent in Thai (the more I learn, the more I realize how much more there is to learn), but it's rare that I meet a farang with equal ability to mine in Thai- mostly, I think, because they rely on their wives so much and still use their native language at home...I was married for 7 years, and I've seen a marked improvement in my Thai in the last 2 (free) years

But, I sure can understand the concept of 'ignorance is bliss'....My German friend has far fewer hassles than I do

[mrentoul]

but it's rare that I meet a farang with equal ability to mine in Thai-

We all make our choices. Some chose to spend hours absorbing themselves in a new language and cuture, and others, as the poster says, prefer to rely on their girlfriends and their wives.

I have a European friend who has four or five languages already. She has not taken up Thai study with any great dedication, but then she does not know how much longer she will be here. Besides which, she might think she knows enough languages already!

[Bluecat]

But, I sure can understand the concept of 'ignorance is bliss'....My German friend has far fewer hassles than I do

Very good point.

As the saying goes, for a marriage to succeed, women should be blind and men should be deaf,...

[roamer]

Comment on Linguaphone. Good, its used as the basis of the Thai course at SOAS London University. Pricey, but heres a tip if your not in a hurry. Inquire about it, let them send you the bumph then do nothing. Wait. Sometime later you get an offer of a 50% discount. The waiting time varies but this has worked for a few people. However only seems to work if you phone and ask for the initial bumph...doing it via the website doe'nt seem to bring a discount offer.

[caughtintheact]

For some prople (like myself), the best way to learn is by learning to write. If you can write, you can read. If you can read, you can pronounce, and from there it is just a matter of grammar and vocabulary. It's nice to be able to read at least signs, to be able to use a Thai-English dictionary, to be able to surf the web in Thai, to make a pun in Thai that makes people laugh..., and not to geel that I only need to associate in the farang community...to me it's all part of living here.

Tones: Normally unimportant when words are used in a familiar context. Thai can be a very pro-forma language. Whn you say a phrase that someone expects to hear, the tones don't matter (unless your pronunciation is really horrible). Tones do matter when you try to be a bit creative with the language.

Cons: Understanding rude comments about farangs is not a con in my book...it's knowledge and that is never a con. Many farangs seems to think that the Thai do not understand our rude comments about Thailand or the people, but many do; they are just too polite to say anything, but they will remember if you frequently interact with those people.

In summary I'd say go for it...at least try....it can be a lot of fun, because the Thai language is a fun language. As one of my Japanese friends once told me, "Japanese have no sense of humor", but humor in Thai is parg and parcel of the language.

Where to learn: The YWCA and AUA have courses.

Books: Fundamentals of the thai Language (looks as if the free download is no longer available), Robertson's Dictionary

Websites: http://www.learningthai.com/tones/

http://www.google.com/search?q=fundamental...Thai%20language

http://www.silom.com/en/d/5603-ThaiLanguage.html

[Boon Mee]

I think if you've come here to lead a quiet life with your Thai wife who speaks Thai and your native language, then it's quite easy to rely on your wife, as many I know do...My neighbor only speaks German- no English or Thaiat all, but his wife speaks German and Thai. I communicate with him through his wife, in Thai...He is quite content with his situation, it seems. But I find it slow and inconvenient to talk with him. I have two other foreigner friends whose Thai is better than their English, so we talk in Thai...

I couldn't image being here for so long and not learning Thai. My most pleasurable and memorable experiences would not have occured could I not communicate in Thai...

But that's me. I really enjoy talking with Thais whenever possible. Some others would rather lead more isolated lives here, I think. I am still so curious about life here, and I find Thais equally curious about my life, and how farangs think...

The problem with not speaking or understanding Thai is that you are forced to rely on translated, often filtered information. You are also relying on someone else to accurately communicate what you're saying, too. Very easy to get the wrong info, especially when it's a wife doing the translating.

I started at AUA in 1986 with Ajarn Oranute, who is still a teacher there. Highly recommended for the serious student. She's a great teacher, and starts your learning by helping you to build a good foundation in the language.... After many years of living here, I still don't consider myself fluent in Thai (the more I learn, the more I realize how much more there is to learn), but it's rare that I meet a farang with equal ability to mine in Thai- mostly, I think, because they rely on their wives so much and still use their native language at home...I was married for 7 years, and I've seen a marked improvement in my Thai in the last 2 (free) years

But, I sure can understand the concept of 'ignorance is bliss'....My German friend has far fewer hassles than I do

Your German neighbor appears to have adopted the philosophy the colonial Brits had when the map of the world was mostly in red: "If the bloody bugger can't speak English he's bloody not worth talking to"

Either that or he's just lazy...

[mrmnp]

This has been an incredibly valuable thread and I would like to express my deep and heartfelt appreciation for the very intelligent responses.

I hope the Admins don't "D&C" this tread for a year and more as I intend to refer back to it as long as I study, as I know, the level of my understanding of the wisdom imparted herein will grow with study.

The advice of practice strikes home as when I studied Japanese at the University of Hawaii two years ago, their "new" textbook, just published taught the language by phrases primarily, leaving grammar and vocabulary for later years of study.

The lessons were arranged by "situations" giving you all the phrases needed to "get along" in any given "situaion". Department Store, Train Station, Fruit Vendor, etc.

This thread inspires, and re-reading it spurs me on, many thanks again.