Dozens hurt as Thai airliner hits turbulence

[Dazspur]

Do not normally post, particularly when I do not have sufficient knowledge of the subject matter.

Those that have no understanding of aircraft and procedures really should not be posting nonsense. Aside from looking idiotic, it is not fair to those with a fear of flying.

However, on this occasion, there are a few inappropriate comments that need to be straightened out as I consult to airline on flightdeck technology and have an airline background.

• CAT cannot be predicted, that it why it is termed clear air turbulence, weather conditions seem perfect
• Lufthansa are conducted tests for better weather foreacasting through satellite updates. Understand when they take off on a longhaul flight, that conditions can change enormously. They do call ahead for updates on severe conditions and may need to adjust their flight plan to avoid storms
• Pilots do not intentionally fly through storms
• "Etihad fly through storms as they will not use extra fuel ". Really, what a load of bullshit. Etihad is one of the safest airlines in the world. See above point. All airlines have fuel conservation programs as fuel represents 35-50% of all airline business costs. It is not unsafe and they do not fly through storms. They carry with them a list of alternate airports in the rare event that they need to make a seriously long diversion around a large storm front.
• Chek Lap Kok is a far easier approach than the old Kai Tak airport

Anyway, compare air accident statistics to those on the road. You are way safer up there than down here.

[Hunter88]

There FLIGHT ATTENDANTS not stewardess.

[iamanisland]

Well " if " all the infomation given is factual in regard to phase of the flight in question then I have Zero sympaphy for these people. Absolutly zero.

Private hospital my arse they should be sued for possible en dangerment to the flight and which could resulted in en dangerment if other law abiding passengers.

Seat belt light is there for a reason and the cabin staff are there for your safty and not just to make ppl feel comfortable serve drinks and food.

I do feel that some people should not be allowed to fly anywhere at all ever. But unfortunately we have the likes of ryanscare, sleezy jet and oh the great malaysian master piece "Now everyone can fly" ??? To thank for this.

My solution is that everytime ppl go to book flight tickets there should be an aptitude test asking basic questions about flight safty and personal conduct on flights. One wrong answer and no flying for them.

Why were ppl in the toilet during decent?? Also if the injuries to the cabin staff are due to trying to get passenger seated then they should sue there <deleted> too.

Dont get me wrong I dont have a lot of time for money motivated airlines but it is about time airlines took action on these stupid selfish individuals risking there own lives and the life of other passengers around them.

Imagine stupid person no seat belt then bang sudden loss of altitude person goes up in the air and lands on the little old lady sitting 35b breaks her neck and kills her out right. Who is to blame then???

Just a question.

However I just state now that we are sometimes not aware of the full facts of the incident and should wait for the full report to come in a few months time and if it turns out that this is one of those in the cruse and encountered un exspected clear air turbulence then I allready appoliges for linking my rant to that incident.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[ginjag]

Do not normally post, particularly when I do not have sufficient knowledge of the subject matter.

Those that have no understanding of aircraft and procedures really should not be posting nonsense. Aside from looking idiotic, it is not fair to those with a fear of flying.

However, on this occasion, there are a few inappropriate comments that need to be straightened out as I consult to airline on flightdeck technology and have an airline background.

• CAT cannot be predicted, that it why it is termed clear air turbulence, weather conditions seem perfect
• Lufthansa are conducted tests for better weather foreacasting through satellite updates. Understand when they take off on a longhaul flight, that conditions can change enormously. They do call ahead for updates on severe conditions and may need to adjust their flight plan to avoid storms
• Pilots do not intentionally fly through storms
• "Etihad fly through storms as they will not use extra fuel ". Really, what a load of bullshit. Etihad is one of the safest airlines in the world. See above point. All airlines have fuel conservation programs as fuel represents 35-50% of all airline business costs. It is not unsafe and they do not fly through storms. They carry with them a list of alternate airports in the rare event that they need to make a seriously long diversion around a large storm front.
• Chek Lap Kok is a far easier approach than the old Kai Tak airport

Anyway, compare air accident statistics to those on the road. You are way safer up there than down here.

Good post.

One problem being if every poster had sufficient knowledge, then it would be no good posting because you would be telling others who already know.

This is the good thing about TVF we ALL learn from each other, being clinical/correct all the time would be a waste of Topics--discuss argue a bit, But the ones that jump in to try to correct other posters without commenting on the topic are the annoying ones.

I posted early with a few bits off topic, re types of passengers, and antics--To look at some of the scathing remarks in replies makes one retaliate at times. BUT it's a laugh at times, if we took it that serious it wouldn't be so enjoyable.

[TimTang]

There FLIGHT ATTENDANTS not stewardess.

Yes...and Mail Men are Person Persons. Welcome to the new world of PC.

Steward & Stewardess are no longer acceptable because sexual identity is passe? Now we can be what ever sex we decide to be regardless of what our genetic material defines us as. The progressives have done a great job of eliminating at least 6,000 years of recorded history. Surely there will be no unintended consequences as our societies travel through this experiment inflicted on entire societies. Anything goes now.

Edited August 31, 2013 by TimTang

[aalek85th]

For me too. Cuz if something goes wrong, I die. No seat belt or "adhering to the safety warnings" will change that.

Flying is always nerve-racking at the best of times for me , and I do always adhere to the safety warnings , ie. belt up etc. just glad that the flight did land safely and that there was not more severity , best of luck and a speedy recovery to those involved.

[mikemac]

As this topic is about people being injured during a flight I suppose having a fear of flying is not too far "off topic".

I used to be the most nervous flyer ever, until...................my trip to Nepal in 2007. I flew from Kathmandu to Lukla to do a trek up to Namche Bazaar. After surviving the landing and take-off from Lukla nothing, and I mean NOTHING could ever scare me on a plane again. I did not know about how dangerous Lukla was until I was on the way there, so it was too late to chicken out.

[ginjag]

There FLIGHT ATTENDANTS not stewardess.

Yes...and Mail Men are Person Persons. Welcome to the new world of PC.

Steward & Stewardess are no longer acceptable because sexual identity is passe? Now we can be what ever sex we decide to be regardless of what our genetic material defines us as. The progressives have done a great job of eliminating at least 6,000 years of recorded history. Surely there will be no unintended consequences as our societies travel through this experiment inflicted on entire societies. Anything goes now.

On that point, I noticed in York U.K. in a confectioners shop, a sign in the window saying we now sell Ginger bread PERSONS, (cannot put ginger bread men anymore)

Another was to re-name the cast iron covers on the roads. from man hole covers to Person hole covers.

[GrantSmith]

There FLIGHT ATTENDANTS not stewardess.

I'd wager to say that they are referred to as Cabin Crew.

When was the last time you heard either the Captain or First Officer say "flight attendants prepare the cabin for arrival" instead of "cabin crew, prepare the cabin for arrival"?

Singapore Airlines to this very minute refers to their Cabin Crew titles as either "Steward" or "Stewardess"

As has been mentioned before, CAT is not detectable via radar and the crew would have been relying on communication between other aircraft in the area and ATC relaying similar information.

The pilot will always say something along the lines of "for your own safety please keep your seatbelt (loosely) fastened at all times" - some airlines do it better than others, to keep everyone relaxed, but it will be along the lines of meaning, "we're expecting rough weather somewhere, we don't know where, but if you've got your seatbelt on, you're less likely to become a human missile if the shit hits the fan"

[mikemac]

This political correctness has gone too far. If a male pilot is flying a plane they say he is sitting in the "cock pit". What will it be known as if the pilot is female ?

[F4UCorsair]

This political correctness has gone too far. If a male pilot is flying a plane they say he is sitting in the "cock pit". What will it be known as if the pilot is female ?

If the Captain is a male, the 'cockpit' known as a 'flight deck'. If the Captain is female, SHE is known as the 'cock pit'!!

Incidentally, up front hasn't been known as the 'cockpit' for many years except by passengers/non pilots. It's called a 'flight deck' by pilots.

Dazspur, I don't agree entirely with your info on CAT. It is being predicted fairly accurately, and is known to be associated with wind gradients, both horizontal and vertical, and particularly varying wind. Actually forecasting the presence is a little more problematic. It's often forecast, but seldom present, so when it is encountered, it's often a surprise because the exact same conditions a few hundred miles back didn't produce any CAT, but now they do. That's the problem.

The predictor for CAT is a 5 knot per thousand feet vertical gradient (but I may have forgotten), but I've seen a 60 knot gradient and not a sign of turbulence.

The crew won't have the seat belt light off if there is a prospect of CAT, and that's based on forecast/known wind gradients, and information disseminated by other crews flying on the same route. Conditions change though, and can do so rapidly, so it's always smart to keep the seat belt at least loosely fastened the entire time you're in the seat. The crew at the pointy end do.......always!!

Edited August 31, 2013 by F4UCorsair

[ginjag]

This political correctness has gone too far. If a male pilot is flying a plane they say he is sitting in the "cock pit". What will it be known as if the pilot is female ?

same same.

[hawker9000]

Dazspur, I don't agree entirely with your info on CAT. It is being predicted fairly accurately, and is known to be associated with wind gradients, both horizontal and vertical, and particularly varying wind. Actually forecasting the presence is a little more problematic. It's often forecast, but seldom present, so when it is encountered, it's often a surprise because the exact same conditions a few hundred miles back didn't produce any CAT, but now they do. That's the problem.

I've seen a 60 knot gradient over a thousand feet, and not a bit of turbulence, but the predictor is 5 knots per thousand.

The crew won't have the seat belt light off if there is a prospect of CAT, and that's based on forecast/known wind gradients, and information disseminated by other crews flying on the same route. Conditions change though, and can do so rapidly, so it's always smart to keep the seat belt at least loosely fastened the entire time you're in the seat. The crew at the pointy end do.......always!!

Excellent summary IMO.

[Bpuumike]

i wear my seatbelt for the full flight and make sure my family dos as well since one one flight we hit a pocket of turbulence and i found myself a good 30-40 cm airborne before my seat came back up at me. once was enough.

Good advice.

Did you watch the vid posted last week of the Lufthansa 380 landing at SFO? The captain wasn't wearing his until almost on final approach.

[atyclb]

If it weren't for those pesky international rules they could disable all the seatbelts as they do on vans.

[Bpuumike]

For me too. Cuz if something goes wrong, I die. No seat belt or "adhering to the safety warnings" will change that.

Flying is always nerve-racking at the best of times for me , and I do always adhere to the safety warnings , ie. belt up etc. just glad that the flight did land safely and that there was not more severity , best of luck and a speedy recovery to those involved.

You ever been in severe turbulence? Your seatbelt will save you from serious injury.

[F4UCorsair]

i wear my seatbelt for the full flight and make sure my family dos as well since one one flight we hit a pocket of turbulence and i found myself a good 30-40 cm airborne before my seat came back up at me. once was enough.

Good advice.

Did you watch the vid posted last week of the Lufthansa 380 landing at SFO? The captain wasn't wearing his until almost on final approach.

That's permissible with the shoulder harness, but if he didn't have the lap belt fastened, he was committing an offence.

[Bpuumike]

This is almost an impossible scenario. The instruments on modern aircraft detect turbulence, whether it be CAT or not, and the aircraft has plenty of time to avoid it.

What we should ask is what the air crew was doing that the aircraft was prevented from detecting the danger.

What nonsense. Air pockets are almost impossibel to detect.

And don't forget lower level wind shear.

[Tywais]

Just some trivia from commercial pilots.

Some FAA rules don’t make sense to us either.

Like the fact that when we’re at 39,000 feet going 400 miles an hour, in a plane that could hit turbulence at any minute, (flight attendants) can walk around and serve hot coffee and Chateaubriand. But when we’re on the ground on a flat piece of asphalt going five to ten miles an hour, they’ve got to be buckled in like they’re at NASCAR.—Jack Stephan, US Airways captain based in Annapolis, Maryland, who has been flying since 1984

It's updrafts, not turbulence, we really worry about.

A plane flies into a massive updraft, which you can’t see on the radar at night, and it’s like hitting a giant speed bump at 500 miles an hour. It throws everything up in the air and then down very violently. That’s not the same as turbulence, which bounces everyone around for a while. —John Nance, aviation safety analyst and retired airline captain, Seattle

Pilots find it perplexing that so many people are afraid of turbulence. It’s all but impossible for turbulence to cause a crash. We avoid turbulence not because we’re afraid the wing is going to fall off but because it’s
 annoying. —Patrick Smith

There’s no such thing as a water landing.

It’s called crashing into the ocean. —Pilot, South Carolina

It’s one thing if the pilot puts the seat belt sign on for the passengers...

But if he tells the flight attendants to sit down, you’d better listen. That means there’s some serious turbulence ahead. —John Greaves

Remember: Bad weather exists BETWEEN cities, too

This happens all the time: We’ll be in Pittsburgh going to Philly, and there will be a weather delay. The weather in Pittsburgh is beautiful. Then I’ll hear passengers saying, ‘You know, I just called my friend in Philly, and it’s beautiful there too,’ like there’s some kind of conspiracy or something. But in the airspace between Pittsburgh and Philly there’s a huge thunderstorm. —Jack Stephan

Passengers: PLEASE be more mindful of yourself and others.

Most of you wouldn’t consider going down the highway at 60 miles an hour without your seat belt fastened. But when we’re hurtling through the air at 500 miles an hour and we turn off the seat belt sign, half of you take your seat belts off. But if we hit a little air pocket, your head will be on the ceiling. —Captain at a major airline

13 Things Your Pilot won't Tell You

[ginjag]

This is almost an impossible scenario. The instruments on modern aircraft detect turbulence, whether it be CAT or not, and the aircraft has plenty of time to avoid it.

What we should ask is what the air crew was doing that the aircraft was prevented from detecting the danger.

What nonsense. Air pockets are almost impossibel to detect.

And don't forget lower level wind shear

And after eating some airline food there is very much--lower level wind ?? sorry stupid I know but Mai pen rai

[F4UCorsair]

This is almost an impossible scenario. The instruments on modern aircraft detect turbulence, whether it be CAT or not, and the aircraft has plenty of time to avoid it.

What we should ask is what the air crew was doing that the aircraft was prevented from detecting the danger.

What nonsense. Air pockets are almost impossibel to detect.

And don't forget lower level wind shear.

Johnnie99, the instruments on modern aircraft DO NOT detect turbulence. The radar detects ONLY moisture, and the larger the moisture drops, the greater likelihood that there will be turbulence associated with that phenomena. Radar 'paints' vary in color from green through yellow, red and purple/ish. The darker the color, the greater the size of droplets, and therefore the possibility of turbulence, but often the danger is not in the radar 'paints', but nearby, in the lee of the cloud.

[elzach]

This airbus incident, there were 500 on board so these must be the Thais that cancelled the Europe trips and diverted to Asian destinations. UNLESS it was taking all those High end tourists back to China. Maybe some were early getting their overhead luggage down as the trend now is to start to get your bags on decent.

It's a realistic enough scenario. A great many Asians ignore the safety warnings, and in fact do prepare overhead lugage on final approaches. So many times I've seen 20 or 30% of pasengers get up while the plane is still doing 100kmh after landing, so they can be the first to have to wait for the doors to open. Just listen to the seatbelts being opened as soon as the wheels touch the deck. A little patience goes a long way, as well as common sense.

As far as seat belts go during flights, Qantas and no doubt others remind passengers to keep their seat belts on during flights, even if loose. It's far better than making sudden and violent contact with the overhead lockers.

True. And next time notice who actually does that. It's usually people who look like they have LOTS of time to kill: young students, middle-aged mothers or grandmas. They don't look like busy top executives to me.

[IMA_FARANG]

Most of you wouldn’t consider going down the highway at 60 miles an hour without your seat belt fastened. But when we’re hurtling through the air at 500 miles an hour and we turn off the seat belt sign, half of you take your seat belts off. But if we hit a little air pocket, your head will be on the ceiling

-------------

In regard to the Thai International flight incident in Hong Kong yesterday ... the other English language newspaper in Thailand which is not directly associated with this Thai Visa forum .... has an article in it this morning showing the crack in the roof of the passenger area where they report one passenger was thrown or lifted up by that turbulence until he or she (doesn't specify in the article) and he or she cracked the roof with his or her head.

(Don't want to be criticized for being "sexist" in my terminology).

It also states that Thai International will cover hospital bills for those that were injured (Public Relations).

The aircraft, with it's small crack in the roof area will be flown back to Bangkok ( I presume without passengers aboard) for maintenance checks to see if there was any lasting damage caused by the incident.

I presume that means repairing the crack also.

[SinCityGr8One]

Just wear the seat belt during the entire flight and you won't have any problems. Remove it only for trips to the toilet. Pretty simple to me.

Sent from my GT-S5360B using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Thai at Heart]

http://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/article/1300675/turbulence-hits-two-hong-kong-bound-planes-injuring-30

An article from the SCMP this morning .

Too funny;

She was angry that the airline staff had not taken better care of them after they were admitted to hospital. "At least they should move us to a private hospital," she said. "In Bangkok we never went to government hospitals."Most of the injured were taken to Princess Margaret Hospital in Kwai Chung, while some went to Yan Chai Hospital in Tsuen Wan, Caritas Medical Centre in Lai Chi Kok and Kwong Wah Hospital in Yau Ma Tei.

Dumb, ignorant woman. Princes Margaret is as good as any private hospital in BKK. In a crisis you go wherever you can go.

Hilarious. Hong Kong to insist snotty Thais have private insurance....

[jpinx]

Most of you wouldn’t consider going down the highway at 60 miles an hour without your seat belt fastened. But when we’re hurtling through the air at 500 miles an hour and we turn off the seat belt sign, half of you take your seat belts off. But if we hit a little air pocket, your head will be on the ceiling

-------------

In regard to the Thai International flight incident in Hong Kong yesterday ... the other English language newspaper in Thailand which is not directly associated with this Thai Visa forum .... has an article in it this morning showing the crack in the roof of the passenger area where they report one passenger was thrown or lifted up by that turbulence until he or she (doesn't specify in the article) and he or she cracked the roof with his or her head.

(Don't want to be criticized for being "sexist" in my terminology).

It also states that Thai International will cover hospital bills for those that were injured (Public Relations).

The aircraft, with it's small crack in the roof area will be flown back to Bangkok ( I presume without passengers aboard) for maintenance checks to see if there was any lasting damage caused by the incident.

I presume that means repairing the crack also.

The "crack" is only a damaged piece of plastic lining. It'd take a harder head to actually crack the airframe

[Sayonarax]

This political correctness has gone too far. If a male pilot is flying a plane they say he is sitting in the "cock pit". What will it be known as if the pilot is female ?

Boats have poop decks, doesn't mean you take a load off on it.

[cloudhopper]

This political correctness has gone too far. If a male pilot is flying a plane they say he is sitting in the "cock pit". What will it be known as if the pilot is female ?

The box office.

[ginjag]

This political correctness has gone too far. If a male pilot is flying a plane they say he is sitting in the "cock pit". What will it be known as if the pilot is female ?

The box office.

Maybe only for crack pilots.

[GrantSmith]

This political correctness has gone too far. If a male pilot is flying a plane they say he is sitting in the "cock pit". What will it be known as if the pilot is female ?

The kitchen