The Chinese......Another View.

[StreetCowboy]

Wonder whether the same as above could be said about another current super (sic) power.

Perhaps you could open a thread on the topic. I am sure plenty of people would like to jump up and down and rant on the topic.

SC

If all the Chinese jump up an down together at the same time,

There will no longer be any need for our ranting.

It would certainly be a timely reminder of the importance of building codes and standards.

And perhaps, the hazards of a centrally-planned economy, and the impact of corruption on an authoritarian society.

SC

[bermondburi]

I would assume the Chinese are more anti-Japanese than American; however, I have no idea what they have been taught. With the internet, maybe they can read more about December 1935, and some must know we backed China in WW2 and saved them from the Japanese. I definitely agree they are learning English very rapidly, and the number of dialects of Chinese in China must be astronomical. I've only been there twice, and it's all generalizations. Don't trust the goods or food; however, the people are generally friendly and definitely smart. I like the Chinese for their arrogance, and it is amazing the Chinese Triad could control gambling in the entire world. That is impressive power and influence. Anyhow, I also remember reading that in 1860's Bangkok was about 25% Chinese, so I'm sure there are millions Chinese-Thai who surely don't look down on Thais, while speaking Chinese and having some deep Chinese cultural roots. Beijing, like Chiang Mai, have similar, yet different, pollution problems; however, CM has better weather. Yes, I first choose the climate. Since I know i can find good people anywhere. sorry for the random thoughts....

hang on a minute , how many of these Thai-Chinese can actually speak any Chinese ? IME most of them have a grandparent / greatgrandparent who was born in China and that's about it . Years of intermarrying etc have diluted everything . They might observe some cultural things but as for speaking Chinese ..doubt it .

[Publicus]

Yeah, I and a small group of friends took the historical tour of Beijing, but that was way back in summer of 1997. Beijing was still half a Third World city and half a modern world city. A lot of construction going on.

Went to the reconstructed section of the Great Wall outside Beijing, the Forbidden City, Summer Palace and some river trip through a gorge.

Went to a lousy supposed opera and afterward to the Beijing Hard Rock Café where I ran out of yuan. I offered USD to pay my way at the Hard Rock but, as tempted as the staff was to get their hands on USDs, they said they couldn't do it. A friend lent me some yuan and I repaid him the next morning when I could exchange USD for RMB.

We toured Beijing after having spent a year in S Korea as English teachers. It seemed that in Beijing we weren't getting the feeling we thought we'd have of being in China, on the opposite side of the planet and all of that. But after a year in S Korea, China didn't seem so foreign or spatially so far away as it did in the USA before we'd gone to Korea. It seems to come down to perceptions and perspective. Indeed, a year earlier it was S Korea that had struck us as so radically different and far off. China simply seemed like not much more than a variation of S Korea.

It took all afternoon in the July heat to walk through the Forbidden City, so we almost died. Just inside the entrance there was an organized basketball game going on, which apparently they do throughout the day, regularly changing teams to get fresh players out there. Bizarre.

[Publicus]

I would assume the Chinese are more anti-Japanese than American; however, I have no idea what they have been taught. With the internet, maybe they can read more about December 1935, and some must know we backed China in WW2 and saved them from the Japanese. I definitely agree they are learning English very rapidly, and the number of dialects of Chinese in China must be astronomical. I've only been there twice, and it's all generalizations. Don't trust the goods or food; however, the people are generally friendly and definitely smart. I like the Chinese for their arrogance, and it is amazing the Chinese Triad could control gambling in the entire world. That is impressive power and influence. Anyhow, I also remember reading that in 1860's Bangkok was about 25% Chinese, so I'm sure there are millions Chinese-Thai who surely don't look down on Thais, while speaking Chinese and having some deep Chinese cultural roots. Beijing, like Chiang Mai, have similar, yet different, pollution problems; however, CM has better weather. Yes, I first choose the climate. Since I know i can find good people anywhere. sorry for the random thoughts....

hang on a minute , how many of these Thai-Chinese can actually speak any Chinese ? IME most of them have a grandparent / greatgrandparent who was born in China and that's about it . Years of intermarrying etc have diluted everything . They might observe some cultural things but as for speaking Chinese ..doubt it .

Agreed.

Chinese-Thais are definitely Thais first and foremost, Chinese a distant second.

I was surprised to find in the five southernmost and troubled provinces of Thailand the number of Muslims who have Chinese ancestry. They identify about equally as Thais and Muslims, and state their Chinese heritage only if you ask them. The five Muslim-majority (90%) provinces of the deep South now have the official single day of the Lunar New Year period as a legal holiday, known as its common name of the Chinese New Year.

It was only after the governments of each of the five southernmost provinces made the Chinese New Year a legal holiday that I found out there are so many Thai Muslims there of Chinese heritage. I'm not talking about Surat Thani and environs, where there is a significant Sino-Thai population and where there are Chinese language newspapers. I speak of the five provinces that border Malaysia, in the deepest South.

Surat Thani and its environs however does have its Muslim population too. It's hard for me to think of Chinese Muslims, even though they are Chinese-Thai Muslims. But I never met any Chinese Muslims in the CCP-PRC - certainly not knowingly. Of course the CCP-PRC is an atheist state, but I did meet closet Christians there. I suppose they'd naturally come out to me, a Western devil, in contrast to any Muslims who necessarily would not come out to me.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Publicus

[bermondburi]

regarding the park , what's the difference between this happening in the UK not so long ago or any other prejudices committed around the world .

[SinglePot]

First time I went to China was about 7 years ago. 5 hour stopover at Beijing airport en route to LHR from BKK. I had spent 3 weeks in Thailand.

First impression that lasted: I paid for a meal in the airport restaurant and the waitress snatched my money. I remember thinking at the time, no waitress in Thailand snatches money.

More recent experience: common for waitresses or shop assistants in Beijing to take money somewhat aggressively.

I knew Beijing was a mistake.

Guess I was spoiled by Thailand beforehand.

Long live the King.

[SinglePot]

Anyway, picking up on Publicus point about the CCP-PRC being an atheist state:

Here is a recommendation for an excellent restaurant in Beijing.

http://www.temple-restaurant.com/

The website photo is unrepresentative, so if you want to get a proper feel, do a google image search.

Stunning ambience, acceptable but not great cuisine. Not far from The Forbidden City and Tiananmen Square.

[SinglePot]

And on the subject of food and multiethnicity:

If you like lamb, try a Mongolian restaurant where you can spit roast a perfect leg of lamb sitting around the table with your friends. Great in winter when the wind from Siberia makes minus 15 in Beijing feel like minus 40.

Or a Halal restaurant run by people from the far west of China who wear Muslim headgear and it feels more like the Middle East than China.

1.4 billion homogeneous people in China?

Nope. CCP-PRC is not everybody's cup of tea.

IMHO it needs radical reform.

[LawrenceChee]

Lawrence Chee you kid yourself.

The CCP-PRC is confrontational, belligerent, bold, brazen, shameless in its claim of complete sovereignty over all of the South China Sea, which has coastline of 130,000 km of South East Asian countries and only 3100 km of the PRC itself.

The PRChinese are being aggressive in the South China Sea, the East China Sea against Japan, and are menacing India along India's northern border while claiming Chinese sovereignty over northern India.

Last year there were riots throughout the CCP-PRC which destroyed Japanese businesses and corporation, and individual Japanese nationals were attacked and beaten in the streets.

On the night of June 6, 1989 the CCP massacred peaceful democracy demonstrators in Tianamen Square. It sent to the parents of young people the PLA killed billings for the cost of the bullets it used to kill their children.

A fine bunch indeed.

The PRChinese have become what they unsuccessfully fought against in World War 2, i.e., harsh and reckless extreme nationalist barbarians.

Indeed it's hard to argue with you the CCP made mistakes in the past. However the tone of your forums spew of hate and is hard to understand.

The moderates however looks towards the future and ask will it be better China in the future ...it may or may not be the CCP but the name matters little in the eyes of the Chinese ...we need low costs of living, good health and schools for our kids and a strong country that can defend ourselves. Again no different from any sovereign nation

Li keqiang the prime minister announced that all labor camps will be closed by end of this year. Would you embarrass yourself on the forum or be a ranting fool like weiwei complaining that this is an insincere move or applaud the move in the right direction ? I don't believe you or a few on this topic has the openness to embrace that.

For all the years of modernity in the western world , there is still brutality in the police force, shootings in public spaces, racism in your own workplaces and mass corruption of corporations that has caused a few global financial incidents causing hardship and real financial to hardworking families all over the world including your own citizens.

Can those governments appraise themselves and said they have done their best or can we also critique them as evil and imbecile ?

You have senators that have sexual issues with maintaining decorum and respecting woman ...do we deem them as evil and judge the entire party or just one bad individual that should be taken to task ?

Your govt has also sought to start wars with no real evidence now with syria and Iraq and the middle east is a fine mess as you continue to meddle with a culture you don't understand except for a trigger itchy finger and a defense industry that needs new profits.

So while you may not have murdered any of your own..did that give you the right to uproot the rest of the world that didn't need that murders and families lost as a result of your inaccurate missiles ?

It also has past history of brutality in south east Asia using chemical weapons on Vietnam,, bombing an innocent country Laos on trying to stem HCM supply lines...do you witness the same hostility or has the Asians moved on and forgiven the past ?

Try it ..you don't even have to look the CCP and I promise I won't send you a Mao pin for Christmas

[SinglePot]

Do ethnic groups need to be represented in government?

Is it useful that US Congress and British Parliament are multinational?

Or have we got it wrong?

CCP-PRC obstinately plays the Middle Kingdom card.

I don't get it.

[SinglePot]

Lawrence Chee you kid yourself.

The CCP-PRC is confrontational, belligerent, bold, brazen, shameless in its claim of complete sovereignty over all of the South China Sea, which has coastline of 130,000 km of South East Asian countries and only 3100 km of the PRC itself.

The PRChinese are being aggressive in the South China Sea, the East China Sea against Japan, and are menacing India along India's northern border while claiming Chinese sovereignty over northern India.

Last year there were riots throughout the CCP-PRC which destroyed Japanese businesses and corporation, and individual Japanese nationals were attacked and beaten in the streets.

On the night of June 6, 1989 the CCP massacred peaceful democracy demonstrators in Tianamen Square. It sent to the parents of young people the PLA killed billings for the cost of the bullets it used to kill their children.

A fine bunch indeed.

The PRChinese have become what they unsuccessfully fought against in World War 2, i.e., harsh and reckless extreme nationalist barbarians.

Indeed it's hard to argue with you the CCP made mistakes in the past. However the tone of your forums spew of hate and is hard to understand.

The moderates however looks towards the future and ask will it be better China in the future ...it may or may not be the CCP but the name matters little in the eyes of the Chinese ...we need low costs of living, good health and schools for our kids and a strong country that can defend ourselves. Again no different from any sovereign nation

Li keqiang the prime minister announced that all labor camps will be closed by end of this year. Would you embarrass yourself on the forum or be a ranting fool like weiwei complaining that this is an insincere move or applaud the move in the right direction ? I don't believe you or a few on this topic has the openness to embrace that.

For all the years of modernity in the western world , there is still brutality in the police force, shootings in public spaces, racism in your own workplaces and mass corruption of corporations that has caused a few global financial incidents causing hardship and real financial to hardworking families all over the world including your own citizens.

Can those governments appraise themselves and said they have done their best or can we also critique them as evil and imbecile ?

You have senators that have sexual issues with maintaining decorum and respecting woman ...do we deem them as evil and judge the entire party or just one bad individual that should be taken to task ?

Your govt has also sought to start wars with no real evidence now with syria and Iraq and the middle east is a fine mess as you continue to meddle with a culture you don't understand except for a trigger itchy finger and a defense industry that needs new profits.

So while you may not have murdered any of your own..did that give you the right to uproot the rest of the world that didn't need that murders and families lost as a result of your inaccurate missiles ?

It also has past history of brutality in south east Asia using chemical weapons on Vietnam,, bombing an innocent country Laos on trying to stem HCM supply lines...do you witness the same hostility or has the Asians moved on and forgiven the past ?

Try it ..you don't even have to look the CCP and I promise I won't send you a Mao pin for Christmas

SHOULD THE PEOPLE OF CHINA BE GIVEN A CHOICE?

Sorry about the capitals.

[SinglePot]

It may not suit you Lawrence for the regime to change, and I wouldn't want to get in the way of your debate with Publicus, but don't expect me to keep my mouth shut.

Ignore if you wish. I am not interested in what we English call brownie points.

As far as I can see the CCP-PRC system is seriously flawed, requires change and who better to assist that change than the People.

[harrry]

It may not suit you Lawrence for the regime to change, and I wouldn't want to get in the way of your debate with Publicus, but don't expect me to keep my mouth shut.

Ignore if you wish. I am not interested in what we English call brownie points.

As far as I can see the CCP-PRC system is seriously flawed, requires change and who better to assist that change than the People.

If you are from the UK they do not sem too happy when people there want to change their system do they.

[SinglePot]

It may not suit you Lawrence for the regime to change, and I wouldn't want to get in the way of your debate with Publicus, but don't expect me to keep my mouth shut.

Ignore if you wish. I am not interested in what we English call brownie points.

As far as I can see the CCP-PRC system is seriously flawed, requires change and who better to assist that change than the People.

If you are from the UK they do not sem too happy when people there want to change their system do they.

The system of democratic government has evolved in the UK. Nobody is asking for a change apart from the extreme right wing.

Suggest you read the article from the Daily Telegraph posted by theblether about China's interest in alternative methods.

[onionluke]

Interesting read here :

"There were 120,000 mass incidents in 2008, according to China’s Public Security Ministry.[source: AFP, August 13, 2011]"

So it could be said in 2008 there were recorded 120000 riots in China , 13 riots happening somewhere in China every hour , 24 hrs a day , 365 days a year, maybe .

http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=305&catid=8

[StreetCowboy]

Interesting read here :

"There were 120,000 mass incidents in 2008, according to China’s Public Security Ministry.[source: AFP, August 13, 2011]"

So it could be said in 2008 there were recorded 120000 riots in China , 13 riots happening somewhere in China every hour , 24 hrs a day , 365 days a year, maybe .

http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=305&catid=8

Thanks for that. I tried to submit a quick google search of fatal riots, but there was a posting format problem.

I suspect that a lot of Chinese statistics get mis-translated by an order of magnitude, due to their use of 100s and 100s of 100s, whereas we in the West use 1,000s and 1,000s of 1,000s.

SC

[onionluke]

Interesting read here :

"There were 120,000 mass incidents in 2008, according to China’s Public Security Ministry.[source: AFP, August 13, 2011]"

So it could be said in 2008 there were recorded 120000 riots in China , 13 riots happening somewhere in China every hour , 24 hrs a day , 365 days a year, maybe .

http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=305&catid=8

Thanks for that. I tried to submit a quick google search of fatal riots, but there was a posting format problem.

I suspect that a lot of Chinese statistics get mis-translated by an order of magnitude, due to their use of 100s and 100s of 100s, whereas we in the West use 1,000s and 1,000s of 1,000s.

SC

There was talk a few years back of 3 riots a minute in rural china but I couldn't find a link .

[Publicus]

Lawrence Chee you kid yourself.

The CCP-PRC is confrontational, belligerent, bold, brazen, shameless in its claim of complete sovereignty over all of the South China Sea, which has coastline of 130,000 km of South East Asian countries and only 3100 km of the PRC itself.

The PRChinese are being aggressive in the South China Sea, the East China Sea against Japan, and are menacing India along India's northern border while claiming Chinese sovereignty over northern India.

Last year there were riots throughout the CCP-PRC which destroyed Japanese businesses and corporation, and individual Japanese nationals were attacked and beaten in the streets.

On the night of June 6, 1989 the CCP massacred peaceful democracy demonstrators in Tianamen Square. It sent to the parents of young people the PLA killed billings for the cost of the bullets it used to kill their children.

A fine bunch indeed.

The PRChinese have become what they unsuccessfully fought against in World War 2, i.e., harsh and reckless extreme nationalist barbarians.

Indeed it's hard to argue with you the CCP made mistakes in the past. However the tone of your forums spew of hate and is hard to understand.

The moderates however looks towards the future and ask will it be better China in the future ...it may or may not be the CCP but the name matters little in the eyes of the Chinese ...we need low costs of living, good health and schools for our kids and a strong country that can defend ourselves. Again no different from any sovereign nation

Li keqiang the prime minister announced that all labor camps will be closed by end of this year. Would you embarrass yourself on the forum or be a ranting fool like weiwei complaining that this is an insincere move or applaud the move in the right direction ? I don't believe you or a few on this topic has the openness to embrace that.

For all the years of modernity in the western world , there is still brutality in the police force, shootings in public spaces, racism in your own workplaces and mass corruption of corporations that has caused a few global financial incidents causing hardship and real financial to hardworking families all over the world including your own citizens.

Can those governments appraise themselves and said they have done their best or can we also critique them as evil and imbecile ?

You have senators that have sexual issues with maintaining decorum and respecting woman ...do we deem them as evil and judge the entire party or just one bad individual that should be taken to task ?

Your govt has also sought to start wars with no real evidence now with syria and Iraq and the middle east is a fine mess as you continue to meddle with a culture you don't understand except for a trigger itchy finger and a defense industry that needs new profits.

So while you may not have murdered any of your own..did that give you the right to uproot the rest of the world that didn't need that murders and families lost as a result of your inaccurate missiles ?

It also has past history of brutality in south east Asia using chemical weapons on Vietnam,, bombing an innocent country Laos on trying to stem HCM supply lines...do you witness the same hostility or has the Asians moved on and forgiven the past ?

Try it ..you don't even have to look the CCP and I promise I won't send you a Mao pin for Christmas

The CCP are an angry bunch that are tough minded and ferocious, so when I post about the CCP-PRC I myself get strident and firm. My post above may be a little OTT to say "barbarians," but only a little OTT. I'm also accustomed to exchanging posts with half-yuans (at other websites), or 50 cent posters as you note they are also called (I prefer half-yuan), so my normal voice in posting about the CCP-PRC is to be just as loud as they can be and often are.

You're a better person to dialogue with than a half-yuan because you aren't being paid to propagandize or to indoctrinate, or to win points in making posts. I guess that's why posters to this thread have willingly adopted you as our Official Apologist of the CCP-PRC without your being literally official.

The United States since 1917 has, in the eloquence of then Pres Woodrow Wilson, been focused (more or less) on "making the world safe for democracy." The US is currently entering into one of its lapses into isolationism, but on the whole the US has been consistently engaged in Prez Wilson's well defined project. It is a project of necessity.

When the US was founded in 1776 it was the first republic since that of ancient Rome. Absolute monarchy in Europe didn't fold until the conclusion of World War I. Post WW I came the dictatorships of fascists and also the dictatorship or the proletariat. Even with the defeat of those dictatorships, dictatorships do continue throughout the world, although less so than 100 years ago, or a half-century ago.

Even with the end of the dynasty system in China dictatorship there has continued. The dictatorship of Mao and Deng have created a new dynasty of emperors who wear business suits - dictators, all but a tiny handful of them. That's your problem.

The dictators in Beijing have taken you full circle, i.e., from communism all the way around to come at us from the other end of the spectrum with fascism. But few of you realize that or care. The dictators of the CCP truly believe the intelligence of the ordinary citizen is low and that this is the normal and natural order of the world and the human condition. And, of course, given that the intelligence of the ordinary citizen is low, there needs to be an elite to lead, a hierarchy that knows best and are the natural, well, dictators, to the society in general.

This is your problem. Dictatorship is a dead end to human development. It is an ancient idea of government from when the mass of people were illiterate and innumerate, uneducated, barbarians all.

The Industrial Revolution changed all that and, moreover, installed parliamentary systems of democracy and concomitantly real and effective notions of democratic society, culture, life. China refused the Industrial Revolution and you've been behind the eight ball ever since.

The project therefore continues to make the world safe for democracy.

[SinglePot]

And if anybody likes the idea of benevolent dictatorship ask a Native American about the system.

Long before the US of A existed.

[SinglePot]

Tier 1 nouveau riche Chinese are gonna get very uptight if they see their material security disappearing.

[LawrenceChee]

Tier 1 nouveau riche Chinese are gonna get very uptight if they see their material security disappearing.

They just move to a country where the tax bracket is cozy...nice to see all the billionaires in Singapore including Facebook co-founder. Weather is nice, tax is low and you won't be missing much except chewing gum

[harrry]

Tier 1 nouveau riche Chinese are gonna get very uptight if they see their material security disappearing.

They just move to a country where the tax bracket is cozy...nice to see all the billionaires in Singapore including Facebook co-founder. Weather is nice, tax is low and you won't be missing much except chewing gum

But what happens to the rest of the family if the family is most important thing?

[SinglePot]

" Mao was quoted as saying in Shanghai in 1959: When there is not enough to eat people starve to death. It is better to let half of the people die so that the other half can eat their fill."

Edited September 11, 2013 by SinglePot

[LawrenceChee]

Tier 1 nouveau riche Chinese are gonna get very uptight if they see their material security disappearing.

They just move to a country where the tax bracket is cozy...nice to see all the billionaires in Singapore including Facebook co-founder. Weather is nice, tax is low and you won't be missing much except chewing gum

But what happens to the rest of the family if the family is most important thing?

The tier 1 rich of the Chinese are no different from your Beverly Hills or Milan folks ...their kids are mostly based in western worlds ...even Mr Kim spent some time in the alps ..probably where he bought the bag for his wife ..it's a nice one.

Everyone can judge the rich but i guess they have a life too and can do as they choose just like anyone else just that they have more spending power

[SinglePot]

Tier 1 nouveau riche Chinese are gonna get very uptight if they see their material security disappearing.

They just move to a country where the tax bracket is cozy...nice to see all the billionaires in Singapore including Facebook co-founder. Weather is nice, tax is low and you won't be missing much except chewing gum

But what happens to the rest of the family if the family is most important thing?

Feed them to the dogs harrry.

[OldChinaHam]

Interesting read here :

"There were 120,000 mass incidents in 2008, according to China’s Public Security Ministry.[source: AFP, August 13, 2011]"

So it could be said in 2008 there were recorded 120000 riots in China , 13 riots happening somewhere in China every hour , 24 hrs a day , 365 days a year, maybe .

http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?itemid=305&catid=8

Thanks for that. I tried to submit a quick google search of fatal riots, but there was a posting format problem.

I suspect that a lot of Chinese statistics get mis-translated by an order of magnitude, due to their use of 100s and 100s of 100s, whereas we in the West use 1,000s and 1,000s of 1,000s.

SC

Not only that, which is often true, but also the names for oranges and tangerines get reversed in Taiwan, all throughout the country, which some call a province, which it is not.

And there are no fatal riots there.

Taiwan is a cool place,

Other than the lunches.

[OldChinaHam]

" Mao was quoted as saying in Shanghai in 1959: When there is not enough to eat people starve to death. It is better to let half of the people die so that the other half can eat their fill."

He often gets misquoted.

And mistranslated.

[LawrenceChee]

Tier 1 nouveau riche Chinese are gonna get very uptight if they see their material security disappearing.

They just move to a country where the tax bracket is cozy...nice to see all the billionaires in Singapore including Facebook co-founder. Weather is nice, tax is low and you won't be missing much except chewing gum

But what happens to the rest of the family if the family is most important thing?

Feed them to the dogs harrry.

This quote from Singlepot is an apt description of how the former colonies felt during WWII when the famed British Winston Churchill made decisions that allowed that to happen to the Asians and a subsequent reason why many of the colonists refused British rule again in the south east arena after WWII

The British press was all about how Singapore was impregnable fortress and so confident were the Brits that nightly ball parties was held at the raffles hotel in Singapore till a few days before the fall.

They ignores the intelligible reports and were confident they could easily smack the oriental Japanese army to bits when it comes to that. They also openly told the Chinese who were raising funds for the war efforts in motherland that they were safe and there was no need to evacuate themselves or their families

Winston Churchill approved operation mantador which was formulated years ago in the event of a land attack on Malaya but at the moment of truth, he prioritize the war theaters of Russia and Africa over the Far East and refused to dedicate air support and fed the "Asians and POWs" to the dogs.

For his single decision, many would suffer in the years later including Brits at this brutal abandonment and betrayal and at the end of the announcement of the Japanese surrender in 1945, history would record that as the British did their victory parade in the area near to City hall MRT now, the Chinese and Malays were quiet at the streets and did not cheer them on.

Over the 3 year internment, POWs of various nationalities suffered the full totality of the Japanese army and most were shocked over their killings of patients in Alexandra hospital and during the land battle of Malaya where they shot the injured or set them on fire rather than be slowed down.

The Chinese population who supported the war efforts in china were mercilessly tortured and murdered and bayoneted with their families into mass graves.

It's gives you a reality check that trusting a western power need not mean the brutality of decisions are limited to the CCP only. History has enough examples of brutality from leaders and people who are discerning know how to seperate propaganda bs vs the truth

and of course why gold is valuable at all times even when the price is dipping these days.

[SinglePot]

My post had nothing to with Winston Churchill. It was an observation about Lawrence Chee.

[SinglePot]

Suggest you keep your rebel brigade in check theblether.