Help! Electric jolt while loading washing machine

[roberti]

Dear Tropo,

Your washing machine has a fault due to current (mA) leakage to earth (ground) via your poor wife.

This is extremely dangerous and is due to either insulation breakdown or ingress of water. The problem under certain conditions could be fatal. So please address the inital fault on the machine first.

In the UK this equipment is deemed CLASS 1 (metal case) and must be earthed.

I came to Thailand to address some of these issues and others, for a well known UK healthcare company about 8 years ago.

All equipment in the UK undergoes 'Portable Appliance Testing' which has not been incorporated here yet.
This involves an electrical (500v) stress test for leakage.

Please disconnect this device ASAP and repair / replace it

Beware that leakage may / can occur as equipment ages.

The earthing solution is only a means of safely routing leakage currents to earth (Not via personnel) and should never be your first means of protection.

You may also which to incorporate a RCD protected outlet in your kitchen area (wet area / wet hands etc lots of metal apparatus) for future protection since your earthing is either suspect or non existant. (Earth Leakage Current Breakers are not a good idea here......)

Hope this helps.

Robert

Edited September 6, 2013 by Crossy
bold font removed

[Crossy]

If you can look at the connection from the machine to the receptacle. Hopefully you will have at least

A 3 wire hookup. 2 hot wires and a neutral. Preferrably a 4 wire hookup. 2 hots a neutral and a separate

Ground. Usually the electric meter will have a ground at the place where it is mounted.

That is required in most western countries. I don't think Thailand worries about it.

Raybo, I have no doubt you are qualified.

But your use of wire gauge and the other terminology suggests US training. Please read up on the Thai 220v system (single-phase 2 wire + ground and 3-phase 4-wire + ground) before jumping in.

[slipperx]

Very many Thai houses are not provided with grounding to the plug sockets. You might have three pin plugs but that does not guarantee grounding so just fitting a three pin plug to the machine will do nothing. Ground the machine one way or another. Many appliances will give shocks depending such as coffee machines and computers. Better quality products are double insulated and therefore you are less likely to get a shock but these products are the more expensive ones and usually dependent on power usage so things like irons and kettles are often double insulated and things like computers are not because their power consumption is much less.

Using a grounding rod is a great idea and not too expensive to install - it is just a pain doing that for just one appliance but unless you are going to get an electrician in to upgrade your entire installation - expensive and messy - your choices become a little limited - easier choices if you have kids though!

[tompelli]

Am not an electrician, but been here 10 years. You have the wrong type plug in the wrong type socket. The plug you are using earths through the metal strip on either side. If you look at your photo it doesn't touch/connect with anything. You need to open up the socket & see if there is an earth wire connected to the third pin hole. If there is an earth wire connection, change the plug/lead to a 3 pin type. If not buy a rod, length of cable & connect to the metal shell of the washing machine.

[ThaiTrav]

Wow! This could be very dangerous. Don't use that washing machine until you get that sorted out.

I'll lay odds that your washing machine is not grounded, it's probably not faulty (ours bites if not grounded).

Please post a photo of the machine's plug and the outlet into which it is inserted so we can better assist.

Here's a photo of the outlet, and one of the machine. (I've been on to the landlord about replacing it because the front panel is rusting away but he doesn't want to as the machine is still working ok). The machine is in a shower recess but far away from the shower hose, but there's often some water on the ground near the machine. When my wife got the shock she was wearing slippers.

washing machine 1.jpg

washing machine outlet.jpg

Check the ground. I bet is not grounded ad is for show

If you have a look at the photo of the machine the front has rusted .....Why???. Because water is leaking most likely from a faulty seal and into the electrics likely somewhere on the front ,I 'd suspect door seal. The rust is the clue.

A common problem on twin tubs which yours is not is the seal goes in the spindryer and water trickles down the shaft into the motor and same result shock. Grounding or earth will help but doesn't fix the problem there is water getting to somewhere it shouldn't be ,that's your problem ,for it is there where it is picking up the current! Get it out to a repair place for checking as it will get worse.

[Crossy]

Am not an electrician, but been here 10 years. You have the wrong type plug in the wrong type socket. The plug you are using earths through the metal strip on either side. If you look at your photo it doesn't touch/connect with anything. You need to open up the socket & see if there is an earth wire connected to the third pin hole. If there is an earth wire connection, change the plug/lead to a 3 pin type. If not buy a rod, length of cable & connect to the metal shell of the washing machine.

The voice of reason, listen to this man!!

As I noted earlier, you can get an adaptor for the Shuko plug rather than removing it and fitting a 3-pin local plug. You still need to check your ground is good as suggested earlier.

[Schuimpge]

"Even if you don't have a bad leak, find a screw on the back of the machine or anywhere on the machines
Metal cabinet. Attach a #12 awg or thai equivilent to the cabinet of the machine and run it outside to
A metal rod driven in the ground at least 4 ft. A copper ground rod would be better."

If you look at the back or sides of the machine, you'll find that there's 1 screw on the machine that has a ground-sign next to it.

For as long as I remember, every single washing machine has that, every large kitchen appliance has that..from microwave to oven to fridges.

Just take that screw out, connect a ground wire (preferably with a crimp shoe and metal ring...) and then connect that to the grounding rod.

[Braveheart24]

Loads of advice. Not read it all. Ground appliance direct. (All parts) ground distribution box and on neutral. Ground shower and any othe metal bodied appliance direct.

A word on grounding, get good rods into ground. Fill hole with carbon mix keep wet. Unfortunately, water comes in plastic pies these days so not so east to do. You can use the actual water but it may not work. Earth leakage trip. Protect yourself.

Yes, as someone stated earlier, flow of electrons is from neg to pos. that is why we ground through neg as well as earth if you are lucky enough to have one.

[h90]

A lot good advices here already. I just want to tell again:

Things like that can kill.....OK wife might be able to use the washing machine the next 10 years with some electric shock and no problem, but it might also happen that it kills her tomorrow.

Steps are:

Finding the fault in the washing machine and repair it.

Check the ground wires in the house. There is a good probability that there none. I can be relative easy fixed if you don't care about the beauty of the installation.

Check if the washing machine is connected proper to the ground.

(Alternative you could ground only the washing machine. But still the machine must be checked)

[Muhendis]

An additional point with regard to the washing machine filter. There is a component (called a capacitor) that forms part of the filter. I have frequently found these to be less than adequate and fail giving a short to the washing machine case. After the earth problem has been corrected you may find the machine is fine but if not then have a look at replacing the filter. The other possibility could be the motor. I have found these with earth fault problems in the past.

[12DrinkMore]

Yep all right, but problem is that the copper rods in Th are made out of steel, they look, like copper, but aint!! Still working ok though

Ground rods can be almost any metal except aluminium.

Copper is excellent but expensive.

Copper clad steel is good but watch for the thickness of the cladding.**

Hot-dipped galvanised steel is also good (and cheap).**

Stainless steel is very good but expensive.

** with copper clad and galvanised rods the danger is corrosion where the steel is exposed, some quality rust-proofing paint should be applied here.

Yeah, so what's 200 Baht saved compared to a life lost?

[12DrinkMore]

Rubber Backed Rug.jpg

Maybe help, can buy cheap from Supermarkets and DIY places....... or wear rubber based shoe/slippers

Ignore this. It is Total Bullshit advice.

[transam]

That water pipe is a no-no if you get a tap leak . Buy a couple of 90 bends and a small piece of pipe to move it. As stated above you may not have the third earth pin in that plug, and check if you actually have an earth feed to the outlet.

[h90]

Rubber Backed Rug.jpg

Maybe help, can buy cheap from Supermarkets and DIY places....... or wear rubber based shoe/slippers

Ignore this. It is Total Bullshit advice.

yes...it works theoretically.... If we would have war and it is the last washing machine on the planet it would be a solution....else don't do it.

[NCC1701A]

I am an electrician with 44 years of experience and graduated from an approved Electrician course.

Perhaps I can help.

If you have a voltmeter, measure from the machine to something that you know to be grounded,

Such as a metal pipe or rod in the ground.

If you see anything more than a few volts, you have an electrical leak that is touching the cabinet of the

Machine.

Even if you don't have a bad leak, find a screw on the back of the machine or anywhere on the machines

Metal cabinet. Attach a #12 awg or thai equivilent to the cabinet of the machine and run it outside to

A metal rod driven in the ground at least 4 ft. A copper ground rod would be better.

Before attempting, wet the area where the rod will go, it will make it easier to drive the rod and give you a better ground connetion.

After this, it should take care of the electrical,leak.

A rubber rug in front ofnthe machine and rubber sole shoes not flip flop will help.

Once you run the wire and ground it, when you turn the machine on, if you have a bad electrical leak,

It may trip a breaker or blow the fuse to the washer circuit.

If that happen, you need someone to find the leak and fix it.

If you can look at the connection from the machine to the receptacle. Hopefully you will have at least

A 3 wire hookup. 2 hot wires and a neutral. Preferrably a 4 wire hookup. 2 hots a neutral and a separate

Ground. Usually the electric meter will have a ground at the place where it is mounted.

That is required in most western countries. I don't think Thailand worries about it.

ChuLai 6768

Yes this precisely describes how to trouble shoot the problem. Establishing a good ground could cause the circuit breaker to trip.

If that happens, then you need to find out what is wrong with the appliance.

Again, conditions are possibly present in your washroom to kill anyone near your washer. If your wife were to grab hold of the pipe of a cold water tap and then take hold of a metal part of the washer that has come in contact with the positive line feeding the motor that could be the end of her.

[jampola]

Just a question that I feel I might already know the answer to, but, in Thailand, is there any qualification/certification required for electricians? (Please don't laugh!)

I have an inkling that no such qualification exists. Would I be right in assuming this??

[Crossy]

Just a question that I feel I might already know the answer to, but, in Thailand, is there any qualification/certification required for electricians? (Please don't laugh!)

I have an inkling that no such qualification exists. Would I be right in assuming this??

Actually, standards, training and certification for electricians do exist, but anyone who has them is working on major projects or O&G.

Domestic sparkies, just need a screwdriver, pliers (or big scissors) and a roll of tape

[roberti]

Guys, please remember that circuit breakers are overcurrent devices rated in Amps. The leakage we are talking about here is in Milliamps,

Any leakage above 50 mA can kill you!

So do not ever rely on any ciruit breaker tripping and saving your life!!!!!

Only an ELCB or RCD can do this.... however, the sensivity of these breakers may cause spurious trips, so the selection is important.

A RCBO will provide Overcurrent & Leakage protection combined!

Hope this helps

[canman]

I'll lay odds that your washing machine is not grounded, it's probably not faulty (ours bites if not grounded).

Please post a photo of the machine's plug and the outlet into which it is inserted so we can better assist.

Here's a photo of the outlet, and one of the machine. (I've been on to the landlord about replacing it because the front panel is rusting away but he doesn't want to as the machine is still working ok). The machine is in a shower recess but far away from the shower hose, but there's often some water on the ground near the machine. When my wife got the shock she was wearing slippers.

washing machine 1.jpg

washing machine outlet.jpg

1. Cut the plug and replace it with a 3-prong plug to ensure you get grounded connection on the washing machine side.

2. Buy one of those extension cords that have a ground-indicator light. (they cost like 500 baht in Amorn and the likes). These are very useful, as you simply plug them into an outlet and if the light goes green on the extension cord box, then your outlet is properly grounded.

3. It is perfectly normal for static energy to build up in a washing machine. Think of wool, nylon and other fabrics spinning around in the drum. They generate massive energy from friction.

So clearly, if your washing machine is not grounded, you'll release that energy. (the same for micro-waves and many other appliances).

4. Depending on the age of the house you're living in, expect the electricity to be a mess, unless you've supervised everything yourself during the build of the house.

You can only start to imagine how my house looked when I started renovating. The spaghetti of wires (nicely hidden above the ceiling), true horror. An aircon installation was done by scraping some mantle of the mains cable of the house and then taping the aircon-electrics to it. (of course with one of those 50 Baht Plastic Breakers for show).. Upon removing more ceilings, more of those installation marvels where found in every room.

So, you want to be safe? Install a ground rod, a proper 3-pin plug, and to be 100% safe... hardwire the washing-machine into a proper breaker next to the machine. Just trip the breaker and (un)load the machine.

Cheers,

Luc

Just to show what to expect:

IMGP8078.jpg

Bedroom Electrics before ripping it out

IMGP8080.jpg

Mains just goes over walls and steel without any protection

IMGP8082.jpg

Wizzard Sparky who installed the aircon before we moved in..Absolute masterpiece, wonder which university he graduated.

IMGP8156.jpg

Proper junction boxes with cables all protected.

IMGP8175.jpg

Lots of PVC went into the ceiling. At the very least, I've increased the value of my house substantially by the time I want to sell it.

IMGP8410.jpg

An almost finished Breaker Box. This one is an industrial grade box, you can do with less, but I had it on the cheap.

Proper grounding bush-bar, large main breaker, separate circuits for rooms. 3 Aircons pre-wired, so no freak-wiring anymore.

It's been working perfect. I used to switch down the whole house just to change a light-bulb!!! No more, anything, just switch of a room only.

I owned 3 houses in Australia and I can tell you the wiring in the roof space of all 3 was not that differant from what you are showing. Wiring simply run across the rafters and joints twisted together and wrapped with electrical tape.

[roberti]

The younger you are the more dangerous...

You will normally feel a tingle just above 1 - 2 mA

At 5mA people deem this level as an electric shock.

Hope this explains the need to forget about CB's

[transam]

Just a question that I feel I might already know the answer to, but, in Thailand, is there any qualification/certification required for electricians? (Please don't laugh!)

I have an inkling that no such qualification exists. Would I be right in assuming this??

Actually, standards, training and certification for electricians do exist, but anyone who has them is working on major projects or O&G.

Domestic sparkies, just need a screwdriver, pliers (or big scissors) and a roll of tape

Yep, I had two very nice ''chandelier'' type lights crash to the floor during the night, at different times , l went into ''boot polish'' my face mode .

[JeremyBowskill]

Everyone seems to have missed the most obvious question, how much do you like your wife?

[Mudcrab]

God help us!!!!!

Some pretty whacky theories out there. Mate replace the washing machine.

Couple of options

Get a good earth in place and wire the earth back to the neutral as well as the machine...make a basic MEN system. You might need an electrician to do this This will cause the CB to trip in the event of a decent fault, and you might have one in the very near future looking at the condition of the washing machine.

A simple earth may give some protection but I wouldn't bet my life on it, would you?. The earth described in previous posts is ok when the earth resistance is low so that you and the earth stake are bonded relatively speaking. What happens in the dry season?

I have seen permanent HV installations with the best gardens I have ever seen because they have a constant supply of water to then to ensure a good ground due to poor soil resistivity.

Quickest, cheapest and easiest short term fix would be to install an RCD MCB. This will save your life but might be a pain as it will trip every time it sees a fault , which could be often from what you describe. They do make slim line RCD's that will fit into the space used by a standard miniature circuit breaker.

[tropo]

Hello everyone....I just got back to my computer. I'm overwhelmed with the number of responses... I never expected this much advice.

I really appreciate the effort all of you have made to help me.

I'll have to go through the responses again a bit later and decide on my next course of action.

The first thing I'm going to do is find out if there is an earth wire in the outlet and the plug.

The machine is on the 3rd level of a townhouse, so I won't be able to drive any rods to the ground. The best outcome would be a faulty machine, as I have been pushing the landlord for a new one and this would seal the deal.

I'll get back to the thread a little later on - once again, thanks for all the help.

[tropo]

Everyone seems to have missed the most obvious question, how much do you like your wife?

Very much! If one of us were to die, I'd rather it be me.

[Crossy]

Get a good earth in place and wire the earth back to the neutral as well as the machine...make a basic MEN system. You might need an electrician to do this This will cause the CB to trip in the event of a decent fault, and you might have one in the very near future looking at the condition of the washing machine.

I agree with all this post EXCEPT the above quote. Do NOT attempt to create a MEN system unless you KNOW that your local distribution network is configured for it.

TT with an RCD or RCBO is guaranteed safe, provided all your Class-1 appliances (including that washer) are correctly grounded either to a local rod or to a central ground point and thence to a rod.

[Dellboy218]

From my own personal and very humble point of view I would not be cutting plugs off or changing anything until I had checked it. I appreciate you may not for whatever reason be able to check it but if it was my own humble self I would:

1. Have a look at the main cable as it enters the machine to see if it is in actual fact 3 core with the earth connected to metallic parts.

2. Use an Ohm meter to see if there is any impedance between those same metallic parts and the third pin of the plug. If there is something less than a couple of Ohms then there is no point to cut it off.

3. Have a look at the socket and see if there is anything connected to the third pin.

4. If so then use a Voltmeter to see if you can read anything across to the live or the neutral. If you end up with nowt then its not connected.

5. Normal earth rods are heavy copper coated steel. Bang one into soft moist ground with some heavyish cable. Small cable will not be able to ground nasty fault currents. Then you have a choice of connecting it to the third pin or to the body of the machine.

6. I would expect leakage to occur through transformers, motors and heaters if fitted.

7. Regardless of earth or no earth fit a Safe T Cut of which ever flavor catches your fancy, ELCB or similar. Something that will take out the supply before it does you permanent injury. Google Safe T cut and you will see pictures of them, they can be stand alone or built into the consumer unit. They are a life saver.

Edited September 6, 2013 by Dellboy218

[Bpuumike]

This is very common in Thailand. Usually shoddy electricians are to blame as well as the humidity.

You have 3 prongs (sometimes 2) on most devices. One is L which is your Live wire, one is N which is Neutral and one is E which is Earth. Not all appliances have an Earth prong (Usually the appliances that are completely sealed with some kind of non conductive material, like plastic) but your washer does since it does have a metal chasis -- You have 2 possibilities here.

1: Your machine is faulty or has something that shorting the Live elec wire with the Earth (Since earth is usually connected to the chassis of the machine)

2: You wiring in your house is faulty and something is crossing Live elec with the Earth.

You can go about this 2 ways to check which one is the culprit.

1) Go to the hardware store, purchase a current testing screwdriver. something like this - http://www.wickes.co.uk/content/ebiz/wickes/invt/500525/Screwdriver-Mains-Tester_large.jpg

2) Hold the screwdriver with your hand touching the metal at the butt end of the screw driver and insert the screwdriver into the middle earth prong of socket of the electricity outlet you plug your washer into.

If you see the light in the screw driver light up, then you have an earth leakage and I would suggest you call a GOOD electrician. I would also check other outlets around the house also, just to be safe. I would also try unplug everything in the house also just to be 100% sure that it's the wiring causing the earth leak and not another appliance (since Earth can be shared across all the wiring in the house)

Hope this makes sense. Good luck, sir!

An excellent and helpful reply Jampola.

[Misterwhisper]

Ground your washing machine. Problem solved.

[Bpuumike]

Just a question that I feel I might already know the answer to, but, in Thailand, is there any qualification/certification required for electricians? (Please don't laugh!)

I have an inkling that no such qualification exists. Would I be right in assuming this??

Actually, standards, training and certification for electricians do exist, but anyone who has them is working on major projects or O&G.

Domestic sparkies, just need a screwdriver, pliers (or big scissors) and a roll of tape

Yep, I had two very nice ''chandelier'' type lights crash to the floor during the night, at different times , l went into ''boot polish'' my face mode .

Up in the village I had a ceiling fan replaced.

The 'electrician' was about 15 years old and accompanied by his mother, who didn't trust him out alone.

A lot of observers but nobody standing in close contact.

After 3 years it's still working perfectly and no shocks to anyone. Result!!