nurses negligence

[fry30]

hello everyone,

First, sorry for my English, I'm trying my best. I need advices to help a friend, maybe some of you faced the same problem than us now.

My friend is a thai girl from Issan, she has a bf who is working in Italy, she is 38 years old, she was pregnant and lost her baby last week.

To make it short, she was 7 months pregnant and went to the hospital last week to be taking care of and during the first night at the hospital she felt her baby was coming told to the nurses to call the doctor and they didn't. The baby came and they didn't know what to do, her baby died between her leg and one of the nurse even laugh.

Now she would like to sue them, she doesn't want any money, she only want the nurses to respond to their act, it's a quite expensive hospital so they should have give the service for what she was paying for.

I told her to don't pay, I kicked out the two clowns of thai lawyer who came the day after at the hospital and told her to ask 9 millions bahts, they couldn't speak english and didn't quote any single law.

I asked some question to the nurse lead who didn't want to give the name of the nurses in charge this night, I discussed with the doctor and I videotape all the conversation I got.

I told her to go to the police to record her complain, she did and they told her to do it again to a "doctor police", her words so I don't understand well what is this doctor police.

I believe that they will guide her and tell her how to sue them.

Is anyone familiar with what is the procedure in such case, what she should do, the pitfall to avoid etc?

[GuestHouse]

I wish I'd not read that.

And I hope the mother and father find some peace of mind somehow someway after such a bloody unnecessary tragedy.

[fry30]

Thanks for your feeling, that's really horrible indeed, she is actually quite tough usually, she used to act like she has not much feeling, when I asked her during her pregnancy how she felt about the baby she answered, I feel full... but I knew that she was so happy, she is 38 years old and it becomes difficult for her to have a baby, she has never thought about children and she has discovered during this 7 months a new bond, a new love.

She showed me the photo of her baby and told me how beautiful she was, the small and fragile body between her legs. She cry a lot and say she misses her baby, when we left the hospital she asked the remain of her baby cause she want to bring the body to the temple, she was crying and without realizing she was caressing the box like if it was her baby.

I don't know how to explain how tragic it is, her dream collapsed.

[Soutpeel]

As sad as this story is, I really don't believe you are going to get much legal headway, taking on the hospital for what appears to be malpractice, but one hopes both parents fnd closure on this

If one decides to take the hospital on, you will need plenty on money to spend on legal fees

[mooris7]

Very sad story and no room for joking and flaming on this thread. However I believe you need to ask a Thai colleague what to do in this situation. I am sure there are other examples of hospitals not doing right and they will have read about it or seen it on the news. But if it was me I would approach a local news station with this story. The last thing the Thais hate is bad publicity. If the local news station agrees to run the story then you will get some action for sure! Please wish your friend good luck! This story deserves the attention of all not the same as the mistress and ex PM story!

[theblether]

I kicked out the two clowns of thai lawyer who came the day after at the hospital and told her to ask 9 millions bahts, they couldn't speak english

I'm not flaming! Why would they need to speak English? It's a Thai hospital, Thai patient.

Drop that part before it makes you look foolish.

[MegaRanter]

Wage a media war against the charlatans, and sue the laughing idiot.

First demand should be the firing of the nincompoops on duty that night.

Some traffic policemen in Bkk can deliver women of babies, why can't someone who masquerades as a nurse?

[mooris7]

Hold a peaceful candle light vigil outside the main entrance of the hospital. Have signs in thai and English saying what the hospital did. However don't block the entrance, chant, scream or stop patients from going in. Customers will stop and talk or ask questions if you are peaceful. This will also attract media attention!

[mooris7]

The father should also approach his local embassy in Thailand to add pressure from the international community!

[JoeThePoster]

OP may find some help here:

The Medical Council of Thailand
7^th Floor, Office of the Permanent Secretary, The Ministry of Public Health,
Tiwanond Rd., Nonthaburi 11000, Thailand.

Tel :(0)2590-1880-1, (0)2590-1884, (0)2590-1886-7, (0)2590-1888-9

Website: www.tmc.or.th

E-Mail: [email protected], [email protected]

[Beetlejuice]

As sad as this story is, I really don't believe you are going to get much legal headway, taking on the hospital for what appears to be malpractice, but one hopes both parents fnd closure on this

If one decides to take the hospital on, you will need plenty on money to spend on legal fees

Unfortunately our Souitpeel is exactly right on this one.

On top of all this, there is going to be the long term phycological truma associated with the losing of this baby.

I would like to ask; is the current boyfriend, who is now working abroad, the father of this child, and if so, why is he not here to give the lady some support? It is going to be extremely difficult for this lady after suffering this terrible ordeal to have to deal with this matter completely on her own.

What sort of actions to take next has to be discussed with those closest to her, you won`t find any answers here on an open forum.

As Soutpeel has mentioned, suing a hospital and their staff for malpractice is going to be difficult, expert opinions maybe required as evidence for a court if she decides to take legal action against the said hospital.

My sincere symphaphy goes out to this lady and the boyfriend really should be on the scene during this time.

[rgs2001uk]

I would head straight to Channel 3 on Rama 4 in Bangkok, they lap this sort of stuff up.

Its easy to criticize some of the programmes that are aired here, but after 9/10 o'clock in the evening they have some very good programmes featuring investigative journalism and hard hitting discussions.

Cant remember the presenters name, the one with the glasses, he does the news in the morning, the Thais know who he is, to some he is a sort of superhero or peoples champion.

If this channel thinks this story has mileage they will probably arrange for the woman to be interviewed on telly (some people have their identity concealed) and they will be sure to contact the hospital.

[Sheryl]

There have been cases in Thailand where patients or their families have successfully brought cases. Successful at least in terms of getting publicity and attention to the problem and some sort of settlement. These were limited to really egregious cases, but what you describe qualifies.

Need the help of a Thai lawyer familiar with malpractice suits. Legal costs can be an issue but sometimes lawyers will work on a "contingency" basis especially if they feel confident they can get the hospital to pay something.

Was this a private or government hospital? Suing the government is harder, if it is a private hospital, can definitely proceed.

As her primary concern is not compensation but bringing the malpractice to light/protecting others in the future, should try to be sure it gets in the Thai press.

She does need to file her complaint with the Medical Council but should have a lawyer help with the wording. Need to be sure to provide specific details and stay strictly factual. (For example, how does she know the nurses didn't call the doctor? She knows no doctor came, but that doesn't necessarily mean a call wasn't put in and the doctor just slow in arriving, or unwilling to come in at night...if this was a small private hospital there was quite likely no ob doc in the hospital at night.

This website may be of interest http://www.bangkokpost.com/lifestyle/culture/360827/medical-malpractice-in-thailand-part-2

Note that the statute of limitations is short -- just one year -- so need to move swiftly.

She might also do well to contact the Paveena Foundation for advise as they do quite a boit of advocacy around women's health issues. Hotline is (or used to be) 1134.

[Sheryl]

BTW, while the nurse's laughter might be ascribed to the Asian tendency to laugh when uncomfortable and not necessarily mean callousness, any competent nurse would have "known what to do" and s done it. So in addition to the issue of the doctor not being present (whether due to not being called or other), there is a failure of the nurses to provide the basic urgent care a premature delivery requires.

Thai nurses are trained to perform deliveries and indeed in many district level hospitals they are the main ones doing it. So sounds like some serious incompetence. Mind you, with delivery at about 7 months gestation, the baby was premature and might still not have survived, but the nurses should have been able to handle the delivery including cutting the cord, clearing the baby's airway, warming and assessing the baby and if necessary resucitating it. One wonders if these wree really registered nurses as opposed to just nurses aides....

[Soutpeel]

BTW, while the nurse's laughter might be ascribed to the Asian tendency to laugh when uncomfortable and not necessarily mean callousness, any competent nurse would have "known what to do" and s done it. So in addition to the issue of the doctor not being present (whether due to not being called or other), there is a failure of the nurses to provide the basic urgent care a premature delivery requires.

Thai nurses are trained to perform deliveries and indeed in many district level hospitals they are the main ones doing it. So sounds like some serious incompetence. Mind you, with delivery at about 7 months gestation, the baby was premature and might still not have survived, but the nurses should have been able to handle the delivery including cutting the cord, clearing the baby's airway, warming and assessing the baby and if necessary resucitating it. One wonders if these wree really registered nurses as opposed to just nurses aides....

Sheryl,

Although I am speculating, and maybe shouldn't be, but is it conceivable that the baby was already dead, the hospital knew and explained it to the lady and maybe she didn't understand or did not want to believe it, hence the reason there was a perceived lack of urgency on the part of the hospital staff, ie they were just letting nature take its course ? Although I havent had great deals of experience around nurses, I have always found they were more caring and compassionate than most of the doctors, not trying to find excuses for the hospital in this instance, just suggesting there may be a legitimate reason.

[Sheryl]

Sheryl,

Although I am speculating, and maybe shouldn't be, but is it conceivable that the baby was already dead, the hospital knew and explained it to the lady and maybe she didn't understand or did not want to believe it, hence the reason there was a perceived lack of urgency on the part of the hospital staff, ie they were just letting nature take its course ? Although I havent had great deals of experience around nurses, I have always found they were more caring and compassionate than most of the doctors, not trying to find excuses for the hospital in this instance, just suggesting there may be a legitimate reason.

"already dead" on delivery can often be revived and at least attempt should be made. Unless they already knew through fetal monitor that death in utero had occurred well before start of the labor. In which case some diagnostic measures (checking fetal heart rate) would have been carried out. And, of course, if it showed fetal death then she should have been told this. In that instance the usual course would be to induce labor to get the dead baby out...so it would not have been a spontaneous labor but rather induced through IV medication (which again, should have been explaiend to her if this is what occurred).

If there was a fetal heart rate initially and the woman went into labor spontaneously and delivered a baby that was not breathing (or took a breath or two and then died), vigorous resucitation effeorts were indicated, unless the gestation length was less than the OP indicates i.e. so short that no possibility of long term survival.

Your questions are good, though and indicate the many details that would need to be carefully ascertained:

- exact gestation (# weeks pregnant) at time of admission

- reason for admission in the first place (?already in labor? Other?)

- whether fetal heart rate was assessed on admission and if so, finding and subsequent treatment

- whether contractions present on admission or began spontaneously later and if so, how managed and why (unless it is clear that there is already death in utero, medications should be given to try to suppress premature labor)

- clarification of the "died between her legs" bit which seems to imply that there was no assessment by the staff of the baby upon delivery (and also seems to imply the baby was born alive initially...how does the patient know that?). Need to know exactly what was done as soon as she delivered, did anyone take the baby and examine it

etc etc etc.

If I knew what type and level of hospital this was, some of the above answers would already be obvious, for example district level government hospitals would not have the capacity to do many of these things.

A lawyer specializing in medical malpractice would know to get all these points clear before deciding whether or not to take the case.

[Bagwan]

I'm wondering if the two nurses are still employed at the hospital and whether any records of the unfortunate event still exist. Even in the UK the medical profession protects its own.

I hope that my inclination does not match reality, and aver that my sympathies are entirely with the poor woman. The effects on her may well be long term and I hope that she gets all the support that she needs.