us social security survivor benefit for thai wife

[stevehaigh]

i'm entitled to US social security in 6 years. i have us passport and am married in Thailand 8 years already. my wife has a tourist visa to US and has been there once but we both live here full time and will stay for ever.

i know that if something happens to me, my wife would not get survivor benefits from US social security because she doesn't have a US social security number and the marriage isn't registered in the US.

i'm thinking about the 2 of us going to the US for 6 months or possibly longer when i hit retirement age and would like to set it up so my wife could get survivor benefits assuming i croak before her (she's 10 years younger than me so statistically, she should out live me by quite a bit)

i'm wonder what other people have done is this situation?

thx steve

[NeverSure]

First, I hope you know that there is no minimum that social security will pay. The amount you receive is based on a formula figured from the average of what you paid in for the last 20 years before you are eligible.

Also, if you take SS at age 62 you get only about 75% of what you would get if you waited until you are 67. The maximum one can collect is about $US2,500 per month but you'd have to pay in the maximum for each of the last 20 years. The maximum, I think, is based on you being taxed on about $100k earning per year. Obviously the more you earn, the bigger your tax.

So by being in Thailand, unless you are paying a lot into your SS account each year, you might wind up getting very little monthly when the time comes. I get the maximum, but most people I know get less and some far less.

Next, someone may correct me, but I thought your wife had to live in the US for 5 consecutive years to be eligible to collect your SS. Of that I'm not at all sure so someone else will chime in.

I believe you can ask SS online for a statement and have them mail you your SS status, and how much you would draw if you retired today at 62. But I don't know if you will pay any more in for the rest of your last 20 years.

You might consider returning to the US now and making as much money as you can to build up your SS income, and to get your wife eligible for it. ??

[watcharacters]

First, I hope you know that there is no minimum that social security will pay. The amount you receive is based on a formula figured from the average of what you paid in for the last 20 years before you are eligible.

Also, if you take SS at age 62 you get only about 75% of what you would get if you waited until you are 67. The maximum one can collect is about $US2,500 per month but you'd have to pay in the maximum for each of the last 20 years. The maximum, I think, is based on you being taxed on about $100k earning per year. Obviously the more you earn, the bigger your tax.

So by being in Thailand, unless you are paying a lot into your SS account each year, you might wind up getting very little monthly when the time comes. I get the maximum, but most people I know get less and some far less.

Next, someone may correct me, but I thought your wife had to live in the US for 5 consecutive years to be eligible to collect your SS. Of that I'm not at all sure so someone else will chime in.

I believe you can ask SS online for a statement and have them mail you your SS status, and how much you would draw if you retired today at 62. But I don't know if you will pay any more in for the rest of your last 20 years.

You might consider returning to the US now and making as much money as you can to build up your SS income, and to get your wife eligible for it. ??

.

what is the maximum possible to collect?

[NeverSure]

Right at $2,500 per month. That requires you earning about $100,000 per year for every year for the last 20 years, and paying the SS tax on it.

The more you make, the more you pay in, the more you collect. I know a guy in Thailand who gets nothing because he paid no taxes his last 20 years. I know another guy who gets about $300 per month because he quit working early and moved to Thailand.

I make the max because I made real good money and worked until last year when I turned 66. Your age group will have to be 67 to get the max.

You can't get the max if you choose to start collecting at age 62. You will only get about 75% of what you would get if you wait until age 67. Even if you don't work between ages 62 and 67, you can still collect the max by waiting until you're 67 if you paid in the max between ages 42 and 62.

Regardless of how much you earn and how much tax you pay, and how much SS you're eligible for, you still get that 25% reduction in whatever you would get if you start collecting at age 62.

[Pib]

Once the wife satisfies the 5 year US residency requirement she could get up to 50% of your full retirement pension if she waits till her full pension retirement age which is probably 67. But if she decides to start drawing early pension at 62 she would get 35% of your full pension. Prorated from 35 to 50% "between" ages 62 to 67.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[NCC1701A]

if you go to here to the SS estimator:

http://www.ssa.gov/estimator/

you will know what your payout will be. You should create a account.

[ubonjoe]

Once the wife satisfies the 5 year US residency requirement she could get up to 50% of your full retirement pension if she waits till her full pension retirement age which is probably 67. But if she decides to start drawing early pension at 62 she would get 35% of your full pension. Prorated from 35 to 50% "between" ages 62 to 67.

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

Doing this to double up on the 5 year requirement.

What it means is five years with permanent residency (AKA green card).

Download this SSA pamphlet. http://ssa.gov/pubs/EN-05-10137.pdf

Edited September 14, 2013 by ubonjoe

[Thanyaburi Mac]

It does get complicated, I did a Google for this: social security suvivors benefit foreign spouse

Came up with several hits, here's three of them:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/346073-us-social-security-survivors-benefits/

http://www.dannamckitrick.com/articles/2012/04/social-security-survivor-benefits-noncitizens/

http://americansabroad.org/issues/social-security/social-security-faq/

Mac

[ubonjoe]

I went looking on SSA website a while back and found nothing.

Then I went looking for the above pamphlet that the SSA sent me when I applied for benefits.

[Ratsima]

It's very complicated. I worked for SSA most of my career; the last ten years as a field office manager. PM me if you have specific questions.

[stevehaigh]

First, I hope you know that there is no minimum that social security will pay. The amount you receive is based on a formula figured from the average of what you paid in for the last 20 years before you are eligible.

Also, if you take SS at age 62 you get only about 75% of what you would get if you waited until you are 67. The maximum one can collect is about $US2,500 per month but you'd have to pay in the maximum for each of the last 20 years. The maximum, I think, is based on you being taxed on about $100k earning per year. Obviously the more you earn, the bigger your tax.

So by being in Thailand, unless you are paying a lot into your SS account each year, you might wind up getting very little monthly when the time comes. I get the maximum, but most people I know get less and some far less.

Next, someone may correct me, but I thought your wife had to live in the US for 5 consecutive years to be eligible to collect your SS. Of that I'm not at all sure so someone else will chime in.

I believe you can ask SS online for a statement and have them mail you your SS status, and how much you would draw if you retired today at 62. But I don't know if you will pay any more in for the rest of your last 20 years.

You might consider returning to the US now and making as much money as you can to build up your SS income, and to get your wife eligible for it. ??

i just checked and i get $1985 if i retire at 66.9, $1414 if i retire at 62 and $2487 at 70.

interesting, if i live to 85, then my total payments for retirement for 66.9, 70, and 62 are $431,142, $447,660, $390,264 so i get the most money retiring at 70

of course if i go sooner, the retiring sooner makes more sense. since i'm pretty healthy, i guess the smart thing is to wait, but you never know, shit happens

i guess the big question however, is how much can you trust the numbers on the estimator. since the US is already broke, who knows what will happen to SS in the future?

going back to work in the US is out of the question for me, i'd rather die poor here

also, i found another thread which says my wife would need to be a citizen or permanent resident to get the benefit so that isn't happening, still i figure 6 months in the US when i'm ready to sign up would be a nice break.

just out of interest though, could there be any problem with SS benefits for someone who hasn't been to the US for 10+ years, hasn't paid taxes (or made money) for 10 years and doesn't even have a current address over there? i do file tax returns every year and keep my passport valid of course

Edited September 14, 2013 by stevehaigh

[Pib]

just out of interest though, could there be any problem with SS benefits for someone who hasn't been to the US for 10+ years, hasn't paid taxes (or made money) for 10 years and doesn't even have a current address over there? i do file tax returns every year and keep my passport valid of course

None at all. As long as the SSA still has your social security record still on file (and they will barring a mass extinction event occurring) and you can prove who you say your are (i.e., show a valid ID of some kind like your passport) you are good to go. Your situation is not unique.

[NeverSure]

"just out of interest though, could there be any problem with SS benefits for someone who hasn't been to the US for 10+ years, hasn't paid taxes (or made money) for 10 years and doesn't even have a current address over there?"

I don't know. I don't think so but I don't know.

About waiting until you are 70. If you work until 70 and pay taxes, they deduct from your social security check 1 dollar for each 2 dollars you earn. But that again increases your SS check at age 70. A lot of people are working until 70 because they like their job or business. So when I said the max is about $2500, it can actually be increased somewhere around another 25% (??) if you pay in until 70.

That's happening to me right now, but I don't know all of the angles. My old employer calls me and asks for extra help for a total of maybe 15 hours per month. I actually like it. I like being around the people and I like the work and it pays really well. So I am unintentionally building up my SS checks even more while earning some serious additional savings. ($100 an hour in IT Admin for a large hospital.)

When I went to LOS for all of April I just told them I'd be gone. No sweat.

Edit. Sorry I was typing while Pib posted.

Edited September 14, 2013 by NeverSure

[Ratsima]

As I said, I worked for Social Security for over 30 years. I know my stuff. If you have specific questions, send me a PM.

[ubonjoe]

just out of interest though, could there be any problem with SS benefits for someone who hasn't been to the US for 10+ years, hasn't paid taxes (or made money) for 10 years and doesn't even have a current address over there? i do file tax returns every year and keep my passport valid of course

None at all. As long as the SSA still has your social security record still on file (and they will barring a mass extinction event occurring) and you can prove who you say your are (i.e., show a valid ID of some kind like your passport) you are good to go. Your situation is not unique.

I got it at 62 last year. The online estimate was equal to what I got then.

I had not made money or paid taxes for over 10 years. And only have address for here.

Sent information form to the embassy and got a call from Manila a week later to set up a formal interview be phone 2 days later. Interview was just going over there records of my employment history and last year of work. Approval letter I got in the mail here was dated 2 weeks after interview.

[ericthai]

One correction. You don't need 20 years to be eligible. It is really based on credits which you need 40 credits and this is equal to about 10 years.

So really you only need 10 years of full time work to be eligible for social Security benefits. Of course when you retire and the amount you paid in will determine the

the benefit amount.

My one friend lived in Thailand for 8 years and then moved back to the US with his Thai wife and children.

After two years being in the US he died. As stated typically a wife would need to be a US resident for 5 years to be eligible. However

in this case Social Security office did grant her benefits. They had 3 children when he died, The ages of the children was 8yrs, 6yrs, and a 3yrs old.

I don't know all the details but I assume since they had kids together this proved they had a real relationship and they allowed her to get the benefits or the benefits was just for the children. I Don't know if you have any children, if so then the child if under the age of 18 might be eligible for some benefits. I do recall his wife at the time

telling me something about needing to be in the US for 5 years but they waved that. I forget how much she got i think is was $800 per child. I know he paid in the max all his life, even when he was working in Thailand as he was living here in Thailand but working for a US company.

[Ratsima]

Amazing how much total nonsense this thread contains....

[NCC1701A]

just out of interest though, could there be any problem with SS benefits for someone who hasn't been to the US for 10+ years, hasn't paid taxes (or made money) for 10 years and doesn't even have a current address over there? i do file tax returns every year and keep my passport valid of course

None at all. As long as the SSA still has your social security record still on file (and they will barring a mass extinction event occurring) and you can prove who you say your are (i.e., show a valid ID of some kind like your passport) you are good to go. Your situation is not unique.

I got it at 62 last year. The online estimate was equal to what I got then.

I had not made money or paid taxes for over 10 years. And only have address for here.

Sent information form to the embassy and got a call from Manila a week later to set up a formal interview be phone 2 days later. Interview was just going over there records of my employment history and last year of work. Approval letter I got in the mail here was dated 2 weeks after interview.

Udon Joe thanks for this information. i was wondering, does SS deposit your check directly into your account?

and when you say you sent information to the embassy, do you mean the US embassy in Bangkok? And I am guess SS has some sort of office in Manila? Or are you really Cebu Joe?

[Ratsima]

I assume since they had kids together this proved they had a real relationship and they allowed her to get the benefits or the benefits was just for the children. I Don't know if you have any children, if so then the child if under the age of 18 might be eligible for some benefits. I do recall his wife at the time

telling me something about needing to be in the US for 5 years but they waved that.

The "five year rule" that you're talking about only applies to non-US Citizens who are outside of the US. No one "waived" the rule, it simply did not apply because she was physically in the US. Having kids with the guy had nothing to do with it.

The US Treasury has foreign direct deposit arrangements with many countries, but not with Thailand. You can do this with a Bangkok Bank account by having your payment deposited in their New York branch. They will automatically transfer the funds to your local Thai account. However, if you set this up with Bangkok Bank you will not have access to the funds via ATM or online. You have to visit the bank branch each month to get your money. There are ways around this.

Social Security has an office in the Embassy in Manila. They are responsible for processing applications for benefits throughout much of Asia. Most applications are handled over the telephone. Even if you go through the embassy in Bangkok, the application will be processed by the office in Manila.

BTW, I worked for US Social Security for 30 years. During that long career I never once encountered anyone who "paid in the maximum". Many people thought or claimed that they had, but I never, ever saw it. I'm not saying it never happens, but I never saw it.

[ubonjoe]

just out of interest though, could there be any problem with SS benefits for someone who hasn't been to the US for 10+ years, hasn't paid taxes (or made money) for 10 years and doesn't even have a current address over there? i do file tax returns every year and keep my passport valid of course

None at all. As long as the SSA still has your social security record still on file (and they will barring a mass extinction event occurring) and you can prove who you say your are (i.e., show a valid ID of some kind like your passport) you are good to go. Your situation is not unique.

I got it at 62 last year. The online estimate was equal to what I got then.

I had not made money or paid taxes for over 10 years. And only have address for here.

Sent information form to the embassy and got a call from Manila a week later to set up a :formal interview be phone 2 days later. Interview was just going over there records of my employment history and last year of work. Approval letter I got in the mail here was dated 2 weeks after interview.

Udon Joe thanks for this information. i was wondering, does SS deposit your check directly into your account?

and when you say you sent information to the embassy, do you mean the US embassy in Bangkok? And I am guess SS has some sort of office in Manila? Or are you really Cebu Joe?

Embassy in Bangkok. Info about it here: http://bangkok.usembassy.gov/service/federal-benefits-and-taxes.html

They call it a application form but it is just one page that you write your basic info on. IE: SSN, DOB, address, tel number and etc.

After sending form everything is done by the SSA office in Manila. I found that my case officer very very helpful and answered emails quickly when I had questions.

I have my payments sent to my direct deposit account at Bangkok Bank via their NY branch.Info: http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/DailyBanking/TransferingFunds/TransferringIntoThailand/ReceivingFundsfromUSA/Pages/AdviceDirectDeposit.aspx

Edited September 15, 2013 by ubonjoe

[ericthai]

I assume since they had kids together this proved they had a real relationship and they allowed her to get the benefits or the benefits was just for the children. I Don't know if you have any children, if so then the child if under the age of 18 might be eligible for some benefits. I do recall his wife at the time

telling me something about needing to be in the US for 5 years but they waved that.

The "five year rule" that you're talking about only applies to non-US Citizens who are outside of the US. No one "waived" the rule, it simply did not apply because she was physically in the US. Having kids with the guy had nothing to do with it.

The US Treasury has foreign direct deposit arrangements with many countries, but not with Thailand. You can do this with a Bangkok Bank account by having your payment deposited in their New York branch. They will automatically transfer the funds to your local Thai account. However, if you set this up with Bangkok Bank you will not have access to the funds via ATM or online. You have to visit the bank branch each month to get your money. There are ways around this.

Social Security has an office in the Embassy in Manila. They are responsible for processing applications for benefits throughout much of Asia. Most applications are handled over the telephone. Even if you go through the embassy in Bangkok, the application will be processed by the office in Manila.

BTW, I worked for US Social Security for 30 years. During that long career I never once encountered anyone who "paid in the maximum". Many people thought or claimed that they had, but I never, ever saw it. I'm not saying it never happens, but I never saw it.

Thank you for clearing that up for me, I did not know the details as I was in Thailand and she was in the US, but she was excited she was getting money to be able to take care of the kids. She then returned to Thailand with the kids.

What is the maximum pay in? I know he was making over $250K USD per year and he said he was paying in the max.

[Ratsima]

What most people forget is that to receive the maximum theoretical benefit you have to have paid the maximum tax in every one of the 35 years that are used to calculate your benefit. Although many people have many years of paying the maximum, most have at least a few years, early in their careers, when they did not.

[moradave]

If you are a veteran, your wife would be eligible for VA survivors benefits of about $800.00 a month. In Baht that comes to almost 24,000 Baht a month which would be enough for her to live on. However, this is means tested and she cannot work or remarry. Check with the VFW post closest to where you live.

[stevehaigh]

Amazing how much total nonsense this thread contains....

care to elaborate? and no, i'm not going to PM you. if you have something constructive to add, let every one know

[NeverSure]

BTW, I worked for US Social Security for 30 years. During that long career I never once encountered anyone who "paid in the maximum". Many people thought or claimed that they had, but I never, ever saw it. I'm not saying it never happens, but I never saw it.

You worked for SSA for 30 years?

You're the one who won't answer questions publicly but asks for PM's? The reigning expert never hear of "paid the maximum?"

"When you have wages or self-employment income covered by Social Security, you pay Social Security taxes each year up to a maximum amount set by law. For 2013, you will pay Social Security taxes on income below $113,700..."

http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/240/~/social-security-and-medicare-tax-rates%3B-maximum-taxable-earnings

So the maximum amount one could/would pay would be the prevailing tax rate up to the first $113,700.

Edited September 15, 2013 by NeverSure

[ubonjoe]

Continuation after doing an edit of previous reply that got lost.

You will see on link I posted before Bangkok Bank will want to see your social security card. I had read info beforehand and had to request a new card by submitting form mentioned on embassy webpage I posted before.

It costs me $5 in NY and 200 baht for deposit. I have it set for them to send me an SMS alert when money comes in on or before (when 3rd is on a weekend) the 3rd of every month. It gives me the dollar amount minus the $5, exchange rate, and baht amount minus 200 baht. I have no complaints about service. I go to bank when it comes in and transfer most of it to another account that has ATM/debit card and I-banking.

Edited September 15, 2013 by ubonjoe

[Ratsima]

BTW, I worked for US Social Security for 30 years. During that long career I never once encountered anyone who "paid in the maximum". Many people thought or claimed that they had, but I never, ever saw it. I'm not saying it never happens, but I never saw it.

You worked for SSA for 30 years?

You're the one who won't answer questions publicly but asks for PM's? The reigning expert never hear of "paid the maximum?"

"When you have wages or self-employment income covered by Social Security, you pay Social Security taxes each year up to a maximum amount set by law. For 2013, you will pay Social Security taxes on income below $113,700..."

http://ssa-custhelp.ssa.gov/app/answers/detail/a_id/240/~/social-security-and-medicare-tax-rates%3B-maximum-taxable-earnings

So the maximum amount one could/would pay would be the prevailing tax rate up to the first $113,700.

I think it's improper to discuss individual cases in public. The OP asked questions that require more information to be answered. I don't feel comfortable doing that in a public forum.

There are too many erroneous statements in this thread for me to deal with each one individually. I dealt with a few. However, based on the reaction I realize it was a waste of time. I should have known that. Silly me.

I never said that I had never heard of "paid the maximum". I just never encountered anyone who had actually "paid the maximum" in each of the 35 years that would be used to compute their benefit. I have encountered many people who expect the theoretical maximum benefit because they are under the mistaken impression that they have "paid the maximum" every year. As I said, it's possible but I never saw it actually happen.

I worked for Social Security from 1975 until I retired in 2005. I was a field office manager for the last ten years of my career. I "paid the maximum" in each one of those ten years.

I'm done with this thread.

[Pib]

Ratsima,

Thanks for the info you did provide-- good info/crossfeed.

Sent from my Samsung S4 (GT-l9500)

[JimMagee]

Neversure is correct, your Thai wife must live in the US for 5 years in order to collect the spouse benefit. You can apply and get a SS (tax id) number for her via mail. There is an application that you can download online at the SS website, and they will give you the address in Texas to send it to. You must include her passport or a certified copy of it. I was able to accomplish this without issue, and I claim her on my US tax return as a spouse and get the deduction. She has never been to the US. If you have a baby together, the baby can be declared a US citizen immediately, and once you are eligible for SS, your baby can also collect a benefit until she is 18 or 24, depending on if she is attending school full time.

[ubonjoe]

I think some people think there is a lifetime maximum.

There is the annual maximum that you pay in. I can remember looking forward to it to being reached because it meant a little more money in my pay checks.

It has certainly gone up in the last 20 years or so by looking at this http://www.socialsecurity.gov/OACT/COLA/cbb.html.