Are middle class Thais wealthier than middle class Europeans/Americans

[johnthompson]

I can best illustrate this with my girlfriend. She has or is able to afford:

1) 2 houses on a generous plot of land. No mortgage

2) 3 cars. At least one of them fully paid.

3) she is able to send her kid to a very expensive private school. The tuition fee is more than $5000 per year. But that is not enough she gets private lessons too and other extracurricular activities.

4) she has 2 housekeepers

5) she wants to buy an extra condo in bangkok

6) in general gas and parking fees are no problem. She just pays them. I think it adds up to about 5000-7000 per month alone. Food and other items are no problem either no matter what the price or how often she goes shopping.

This lifestyle is impossible for me in Europe. In fact its not even possible for me to get in Thailand.

[krisb]

Id say thats wealthier than most middle class Thais for sure. Since she's your gf, does this mean she has accumulated her assets by herself? She has done well especially on the property side of things. But then look at it this way, 1 property here in Australia is lets say minimum 300grand. Thats around 10million baht. Whats your gf combined propertys worth? Its all relative in lots of ways.

[culicine]

Id say thats wealthier than most middle class Thais for sure. Since she's your gf, does this mean she has accumulated her assets by herself? She has done well especially on the property side of things. But then look at it this way, 1 property here in Australia is lets say minimum 300grand. Thats around 10million baht. Whats your gf combined propertys worth? Its all relative in lots of ways.

I agree - my neighborhood would be considered 'middle' middle class - houses in the 3-6million baht range, one car, generally a toyota/honda, possibly a second car. Household salaries in the 50-100K range per month. Then there are villages around here with houses - 20-120 million baht range. Not sure how they would be classified, but it isn't middle class.

[culicine]

So either the OP's GF inherited a lot of stuff or have a very high income (depending on the value of the houses/property).

[GuestHouse]

How much tax does she pay?

And what percentage of her income does she simply not report to the tax office?

[CPH]

Only 2.65 % of Thai population pay taxes. Thats why middle class Thais have a lot of money. In europe they take all our money in taxes and fees, so we end with a low middle class.

[razorramone]

Well it depends if you mean hard cash or purchasing power. Obviously money goes a lot further here.

[johnthompson]

She lives with her mom, dad and brother. Although she has her own house and that plot of land. The three cars are owned by the family. Two housekeepers are paid by the family. Does not explain how she is still able to afford parking fees, gasoline, school fees and activities for her kid, expensive dinners, consumables, holiday to HK and other stuff.

I know she is middle class. But lets not focus on my girlfriend. Lets focus on all those new modern moobarns and condo's with 3-4 cars in front and all the thai people I see at shopping malls with the latest cars, smartphones. Surely all of those people are middle class right?

[CPH]

They do not pay tax. That brings you a lot further with your money.

[Paangjang]

My girlfriend is also quite well of but i can't say it's all from her working. Mommy and daddy seem to pay for most things. Can't really see how sustainable it can be?

[soi41]

Have you met her sugardaddy??

[krisb]

End of the day, middle class is middle class. They aren't wealthier because they are all grouped as middle class. If we sold our middle class house here and bought a house in Thailand, Id move to upper class. If a middle class Thai sold and bought in Australia, they would be lucky to still be middle class and probably drop a class, and they would find rice is more expensive also.

[yourauntbob]

Sounds like your g/f is not middle class. Middle class by definition is the group in the middle, and the average Thai cannot afford all of that. Maybe thats not rich, maybe we will call it upper middle class and i would say in most of the world the upper middle class can afford similar.

[FiftyTwo]

She lives with her mom, dad and brother. Although she has her own house and that plot of land. The three cars are owned by the family. Two housekeepers are paid by the family. Does not explain how she is still able to afford parking fees, gasoline, school fees and activities for her kid, expensive dinners, consumables, holiday to HK and other stuff.

I know she is middle class. But lets not focus on my girlfriend. Lets focus on all those new modern moobarns and condo's with 3-4 cars in front and all the thai people I see at shopping malls with the latest cars, smartphones. Surely all of those people are middle class right?

All bought on credit.

Minimum deposit, maximum term.

Middle class UK or middle class USA?

Middle class UK, someone who never sweats or gets their hands dirty when they work.

Middle class USA, earn lots of money.

[bocceball1]

Let's see ......middle class in

America is income between $51,000 and $131,000...average mean $81,000....(US News)

Thailand appears to be between 30,000 Baht and 100,000 baht ...average? 60,000 baht (Adecco Salary guide thailand 2012)

With that in mind ....the average middle income Thai would be at the poverty level in America....

What Thailand has that many western countries are missing is 1). the family support network that many average local Thais enjoy...ie Papa pays for many perks!...As stated by you for your girlfriend by her father....

2) Many Thai's live in a boxy apartment and eating street-food three times a day (this type of life style allows them to buy a nice car, clothes and travel)

Rent a lot cheaper than in the west (for either Major City ....Bangkok vs Los Angeles or in the country Issan vs Iowa

In any case ....either your girlfriend and her family are NOT average middle class Thai's.....or their lifestyle (live for the moment ...typical Thai) will be short lived.

So....the simple answer to your question is that Middle class Thai's ARE NOT wealthier than their western counterparts....IMHO

[David48]

Maybe your girlfriend has an alternative income source, about which you are not aware?

.

[GuestHouse]

We've had this discussion before - the definition of middle class is different between the US and UK/Europe.

They are completely different definitions to the point of being mutually exclusive.

wrt middle class Thais with all the goodies.

You need to work in an office full of these "middle class Thais" - around four to five days into the start of a new month they start getting the phone calls.......

Debt, a wing and a prayer.

[arthurwait]

Only 2.65 % of Thai population pay taxes. Thats why middle class Thais have a lot of money. In europe they take all our money in taxes and fees, so we end with a low middle class.

About 17% I believe.

[arthurwait]

End of the day, middle class is middle class. They aren't wealthier because they are all grouped as middle class. If we sold our middle class house here and bought a house in Thailand, Id move to upper class. If a middle class Thai sold and bought in Australia, they would be lucky to still be middle class and probably drop a class, and they would find rice is more expensive also.

You can't buy class dear boy.

[manarak]

OP's girlfriend is a bit more than middle class...

But he does have a point in that standard of living of a Thai family belonging to the Thai middle class has a higher ration of "wellbeing", calculated as ( disposable income * purchasing power ) than a European family in a comparable social situation.

The middle class is being squeezed away in Europe. I have a feeling that when a European family has no debts and is able to pay its bills while living modestly, it's already middle class. Almost nobody in Europe can afford staff at home or several houses that weren't inherited, these things have been priced out of reach.

[arthurwait]

$5000 per year is a very expensive school ?? You're obviously not in Bangkok. Which would probably make her land not worth very much.

As asked several times how much tax does she and her family pay ? How much are the staffs wages ? How much is this condo 1 - 2 million ?

Father pays towards kid ?

Less cars than the people all living in the same house bought on credit by the sounds of it, It's not that much to be confused about.

No rent/mortgage lives at home with parents were she lives, no tax, cheap to live in country, cheap school, easy credit, 10k wages per maid per month, Yes she sounds middle class maybe but it isn't hard to see it's not that much money and the reasons they can afford it.

[OMGImInPattaya]

She lives with her mom, dad and brother. Although she has her own house and that plot of land. The three cars are owned by the family. Two housekeepers are paid by the family. Does not explain how she is still able to afford parking fees, gasoline, school fees and activities for her kid, expensive dinners, consumables, holiday to HK and other stuff.

I know she is middle class. But lets not focus on my girlfriend. Lets focus on all those new modern moobarns and condo's with 3-4 cars in front and all the thai people I see at shopping malls with the latest cars, smartphones. Surely all of those people are middle class right?

Are you her only boyfriend? Have you seen the latest Bank of Thailand stats on Thai household debt and total consumer dept in Thailand? As the average income in LOS is about US$ 6K, and you sweetie pays that for kid's schooling alone, I'd hardly put her in the middle-class. Maybe better if you titled your post "How the Wealthy Thais Spend Their Money."

[oogster8]

So either the OP's GF inherited a lot of stuff or have a very high income (depending on the value of the houses/property).

Or she might be a high earning BANK TELLER, with very good saving skills. Rare but they are out there....................lol.

In my village its the girls who go to BKK to do bank telling work who have the nice stuff!!!!!!!!!!

[oogster8]

She lives with her mom, dad and brother. Although she has her own house and that plot of land. The three cars are owned by the family. Two housekeepers are paid by the family. Does not explain how she is still able to afford parking fees, gasoline, school fees and activities for her kid, expensive dinners, consumables, holiday to HK and other stuff.

I know she is middle class. But lets not focus on my girlfriend. Lets focus on all those new modern moobarns and condo's with 3-4 cars in front and all the thai people I see at shopping malls with the latest cars, smartphones. Surely all of those people are middle class right?

You should focus on your gf. I think its important where she gets the money to afford goodies! It does make a difference.

[farang000999]

There is one aspect of living in America for the middle class and that is the fixed rate 30 year home mortgage. If you are capable of existing in society as a responsible adult who does not ruin his credit, you can get a home mortgage. It is essentially subsidized by the government and the interest rates are low. You end up paying significantly less for the home than if you were renting. Even your mortgage payment will often be less then the rental price over time.**

**The housing crisis was about fraud plain and simple not low interest rates/government backed loans/mortgages.

[NeverSure]

You're kidding, right? Average per capita income Thailand, less than US$6k. US, $50k. The US doesn't charge import taxes making all major items cheaper by far. Computers, cars, TV's, etc. US grows its own food making Western food far cheaper.

Wealthier? Which middle class Thai owns a home worth US$500k? (15 million baht.)

I just bought a new Honda CRV for 800,000 baht, (US$25,000.) It would be more like 2 million baht in Thailand. It's 4 wheel limited slip drive, sun roof - loaded. A middle class Thai can't afford that if only because of the taxes causing it to cost 2.5x as much.

Someone is dreaming if he thinks 3rd world Thais are anywhere near as wealthy as Westerners.

Thais don't pay taxes? Try buying a car or anything imported.

[manarak]

You're kidding, right? Average per capita income Thailand, less than US$6k. US, $50k. The US doesn't charge import taxes making all major items cheaper by far. Computers, cars, TV's, etc. US grows its own food making Western food far cheaper.

Wealthier? Which middle class Thai owns a home worth US$500k? (15 million baht.)

I just bought a new Honda CRV for 800,000 baht, (US$25,000.) It would be more like 2 million baht in Thailand. It's 4 wheel limited slip drive, sun roof - loaded. A middle class Thai can't afford that if only because of the taxes causing it to cost 2.5x as much.

Someone is dreaming if he thinks 3rd world Thais are anywhere near as wealthy as Westerners.

Thais don't pay taxes? Try buying a car or anything imported.

Comparing values in dollars is like comparing apples and pears.

What counts is the substance - a house that costs 500k in the USA would cost only about 150k-200k in Thailand.

[NeverSure]

You're kidding, right? Average per capita income Thailand, less than US$6k. US, $50k. The US doesn't charge import taxes making all major items cheaper by far. Computers, cars, TV's, etc. US grows its own food making Western food far cheaper.

Wealthier? Which middle class Thai owns a home worth US$500k? (15 million baht.)

I just bought a new Honda CRV for 800,000 baht, (US$25,000.) It would be more like 2 million baht in Thailand. It's 4 wheel limited slip drive, sun roof - loaded. A middle class Thai can't afford that if only because of the taxes causing it to cost 2.5x as much.

Someone is dreaming if he thinks 3rd world Thais are anywhere near as wealthy as Westerners.

Thais don't pay taxes? Try buying a car or anything imported.

Comparing values in dollars is like comparing apples and pears.

What counts is the substance - a house that costs 500k in the USA would cost only about 150k-200k in Thailand.

Comparing houses in the USA to houses in Thailand is like comparing apples and pears.

Would the Thai home have central aircon (and heat in the US?) Would it be on a really good paved street with sidewalks, curbs and gutters with handicap ramps in the curbs? Would it have true sanitary sewer and safe water?

Would it have a readily available fire hydrant meeting standards for flow and pressure? Would it have smoke detectors and alarms throughout? Would the electricity be properly grounded? Would it have GFI plugs in the kitchen, bathrooms and laundry rooms, in the garage and all outside plugs?

Would it have a minimum of a two car garage with an automatic opener?

Would it and the infrastructure of the neighborhood meet all US codes?

I don't think so.

[manarak]

You're kidding, right? Average per capita income Thailand, less than US$6k. US, $50k. The US doesn't charge import taxes making all major items cheaper by far. Computers, cars, TV's, etc. US grows its own food making Western food far cheaper.

Wealthier? Which middle class Thai owns a home worth US$500k? (15 million baht.)

I just bought a new Honda CRV for 800,000 baht, (US$25,000.) It would be more like 2 million baht in Thailand. It's 4 wheel limited slip drive, sun roof - loaded. A middle class Thai can't afford that if only because of the taxes causing it to cost 2.5x as much.

Someone is dreaming if he thinks 3rd world Thais are anywhere near as wealthy as Westerners.

Thais don't pay taxes? Try buying a car or anything imported.

Comparing values in dollars is like comparing apples and pears.

What counts is the substance - a house that costs 500k in the USA would cost only about 150k-200k in Thailand.

Comparing houses in the USA to houses in Thailand is like comparing apples and pears.

Would the Thai home have central aircon (and heat in the US?) Would it be on a really good paved street with sidewalks, curbs and gutters with handicap ramps in the curbs? Would it have true sanitary sewer and safe water?

Would it have a readily available fire hydrant meeting standards for flow and pressure? Would it have smoke detectors and alarms throughout? Would the electricity be properly grounded? Would it have GFI plugs in the kitchen, bathrooms and laundry rooms, in the garage and all outside plugs?

Would it have a minimum of a two car garage with an automatic opener?

Would it and the infrastructure of the neighborhood meet all US codes?

I don't think so.

My Thai house has everything you mention except central aircon, safe water and the hydrant.

But I guess your example US house lacks the competition pool table, the 15 meter swimming pool, the jacuzzi and the sauna, as well as probably one bed room or two.

The point is, a good restaurant meal in the US is "worth" 50 dollars, while a good restaurant meal in the LOS is "worth" 15 dollars.

If comparing dollar values, one would conclude that the US meal is more than 3 times superior, yet in reality both are good meals and therefore equivalent.

That's why GDP figures cannot be compared.

Average disposable income adjusted by purchasing power has to be used for comparisons.

For your argument with the car, you need to compare all costs, not just the purchase price.

Do a comparison including all repair costs, costs for cleaning the car, tyres, etc. over 3 years and include the resale price.

Edited October 5, 2013 by manarak

[jimbobs1]

It's hard to work out a Thais worth, I live in a small village, we bought our land off an old dear who lives in a shack

When it came down to finalising payments etc, her son turned up in a 4wd Porsche, I asked my wife

Does she have money?

Oh yes she own many Rai , she have big money, her son have hotel in Bangkok

I have been humbled , I thought most of the people in Isaan where living hard

The older generation don't seem to show their wealth