Are middle class Thais wealthier than middle class Europeans/Americans

[pistachios]

A nurse, secretary or bank clerck's salary barely reaches 20k. Some of you guys are way out touch with reality if you consider a middle class household income is around 100k per month.

that's not true. we know both a nurse and a secretary; very close friends. nurse is making 32K per month - sometimes more if she does home healthcare on weekends, secretary (years of experience inc. executive secretary at samsung corporate office), making about 45K per month.

That's clearly not the norm for those jobs. The mother and aunt of my gf are nurses, both private live-in nurses for rich families after having worked for years in a good private hospital are making around 25k. Normal salary for a young nurse is 15k. Starting salary in a bank or for a secretary isn't much more.

20k is not even enough for my food and grocery monthly budget, and I've cut down a lot on farang food. I have no idea how you can survive with this income but many seem to think thai middle class is having it better than in euro/usa for some reason.

[bocceball1]

OK....OK ...OK ....average starting Thai salary is 8k-10k baht,,,,after working a bit maybe it goes up to 15-20k

But are these Thai's middle class? Are they lower middle class? Are they even classified as middle class just because they have a job? Just because a salary is average .....does that mean the middle ...(ie middle class). A study was done and 65% of Thai's feel they are middle class! Soooo....is "perception" the basis for determining who is in the middle class?

I'll leave all that deep thinking to you middle class genius's out there!

AND ...by the way...who really cares? If you have a roof over your head, clothes on your back, food to feed the family, and transportation to get you around ...what else do you need? After that its just matters of degrees.

[elzach]

Ever notice how most Thai people, who have very little, smile and seem happy. Ever notice how when visiting the poorest of the poor in Thailand they invite you inside their home and offer you something to drink (even though it may be the last of what they have), offer you something to eat (although its the last of their food) and they do so with a pride that is completely not understood or felt in the west.

Ever notice in the West everybody seems miserable, discontent and unhappy.

Think on that and then tell me who is more successful. Successful in life (the Thai's) Successful in money (the West)....All depends on what your gauge of success is (or wealth)

“Comparison is the death of joy.”

― Mark Twain

Misplaced comparison....it all depends on EXPECTATIONS. The Thais you are talking about, find out how they were living just 20 years ago. For example, find out if they had bathrooms inside their houses. Oh, and when that "moto bike" meant you've made it.

[phitsanulokjohn]

Only 2.65 % of Thai population pay taxes. Thats why middle class Thais have a lot of money. In europe they take all our money in taxes and fees, so we end with a low middle class.

But we get state pensions at 65 for the rest of our lives.We also get our rent or mortgage paid if we are unable to work through unemployment or through sickness.Even if we are able to work but don't earn too much we get working tax credits to supplement our income.We get family allowance for each child until they're 18 if they choose to go to college.

Now Answer yourself one question, does all or any of the the above benefits apply to Thai citizens ?

I'm not saying the people who work for the Thai government are tight, but if they had an arseful of piles or bottom grapes,they would want to charge their citizens to extract them.

[Oscar2]

OK....OK ...OK ....average starting Thai salary is 8k-10k baht,,,,after working a bit maybe it goes up to 15-20k

But are these Thai's middle class? Are they lower middle class? Are they even classified as middle class just because they have a job? Just because a salary is average .....does that mean the middle ...(ie middle class). A study was done and 65% of Thai's feel they are middle class! Soooo....is "perception" the basis for determining who is in the middle class?

I'll leave all that deep thinking to you middle class genius's out there!

AND ...by the way...who really cares? If you have a roof over your head, clothes on your back, food to feed the family, and transportation to get you around ...what else do you need? After that its just matters of degrees.

8-20K Baht p/m is not middle-class! Burmese laborers doing construction make more than 8K p/m. I would guess to be 'middle-class' you would have to be making 30K+ p/m. just a guess. i'm not really sure.

[klubex99]

True middle class in the UK would be considered almost aristocracy in Thailand.

Our upper working class is probably Thailand's middle class.

Thailand's class system is a lot more distorted than most of the west.

For example, in the UK the class divide is getting smaller, and more people are becoming millionaires. There are currently around 700,000 millionaires in the UK despite the latest recession this number had risen by a staggering 17% between 2008 and 2010.

In Thailand, the class divide is widening.

Thaksin alone probably has more money than the poorest 10 million Thais combined.

In the UK, around 10% of the population holds about 90% of the wealth, in the USA 3% hold about 97% of the country's wealth, but in Thailand, 99.9% is probably held by 0.001% of the population.

Edited October 7, 2013 by klubex99

[snake24]

True middle class in the UK would be considered almost aristocracy in Thailand.

Our upper working class is probably Thailand's middle class.

Thailand's class system is a lot more distorted than most of the west.

For example, in the UK the class divide is getting smaller, and more people are becoming millionaires. There are currently around 700,000 millionaires in the UK despite the latest recession this number had risen by a staggering 17% between 2008 and 2010.

In Thailand, the class divide is widening.

Thaksin alone probably has more money than the poorest 10 million Thais combined.

In the UK, around 10% of the population holds about 90% of the wealth, in the USA 3% hold about 97% of the country's wealth, but in Thailand, 99.9% is probably held by 0.001% of the population.

Interesting now the most important thing is how to join that elite group.

Actually the way you put things like this it's like implying that the minority 10, 3 or 0.001% stole the wealth of the others. Now it might be different in each country but it's not always the case BUT in general we could say 3rd world or rather developing countries have more instances of stealing the wealth of the rest of the country while for other cases they built their wealth through their shrewedness.

[NeverSure]

True middle class in the UK would be considered almost aristocracy in Thailand.

Our upper working class is probably Thailand's middle class.

Thailand's class system is a lot more distorted than most of the west.

For example, in the UK the class divide is getting smaller, and more people are becoming millionaires. There are currently around 700,000 millionaires in the UK despite the latest recession this number had risen by a staggering 17% between 2008 and 2010.

In Thailand, the class divide is widening.

Thaksin alone probably has more money than the poorest 10 million Thais combined.

In the UK, around 10% of the population holds about 90% of the wealth, in the USA 3% hold about 97% of the country's wealth, but in Thailand, 99.9% is probably held by 0.001% of the population.

Link please?

I know that in the US about 10% of the population pays about 90% of the income taxes, but that's due to a progressive rate. I posted a link earlier which shows that no group in the US pays more than about 20% of income for income taxes - even the wealthiest. The tax rates are higher than that, but the wealthiest often get a lot of their income from capital gains which is at a much lower rate. They also max out paying FICA at about $105k income, so on a big income that averages low. Lower earners pay that on 100% of what they earn, but pay income taxes at a lower rate - perhaps 10% of adjusted gross income, not gross income.

Short of a link proving me wrong, it's hard to believe that 3% of the US population holds 97% of the wealth. Could be wrong...

[MrHammer]

I can vouch as another poster said that Thais like to show off, just like persian,arabs, blacks and wannabe rich cultures. They do not have that understated british/norther european relationship to wealth. It seems and is poor taste but hey, everyone is allowed to think theirs.

In my condo there are 1 bedrooms and 2 bedrooms, a smallish pool, small fitness room etc and the rooms are decent enough, but I have to stress, not in any western way luxurious or would be considered extravagant or upper class. They are proper middle to upper middle class condos in the west. However, the car park is full of Mercs, BMWs and Audis.

So yes, Thais seem to think that what is the point of wealth if you can't show it, while many europeans seem to think that it is better to be able to remain anonymous in crowds. Perhaps because europe has a history of pleb uprisings against the elite. Keep in mind, that there have been no marxist or citizen uprisings in Thailand.

Let the children be children I say, because the Thais are in a civilisatory context very much a child.

But don't let your jealousy overshadow the fact that the middle class is being royally raped by the government on cars, gas, electricity and food back home.

[NeverSure]

I keep reading this thread an I can't believe anyone thinks that the average "middle class" Thai is wealthier than the average American. I can't speak for other countries where I believe taxes and the cost of living are higher.

OK, my social security checks are right at $2500 per month (78K baht.) I earned enough during my life to own a home and acreage that even in rural US, and even in this market is worth about $500k (15 million baht.)

I am strictly middle class US. I never made much more than $100k per year working, but I invested and saved. I have quite a bit of income from it, and savings if needed.

I don't know that housing is cheaper in Thaland. Show me 25 rai in a great spot and build my house on it to Western standards including everything inclusive, pave the driveway, install proper plumbing and a proper septic system up to code and assure pure drinking water to it, insulate it properly including the windows, install central HVAC, do the wiring up to code and tell me what it all cost. That's for a Thai who can own the land.

It doesn't matter, Thai or Westerner. Some save and are responsible, and some spend their lives up to their necks in consumer debt. Up to you. But at least the American, due to low taxes and low consumer prices will win every time. Again, I can't speak for other Western countries.

[NeverSure]

-snip-

But don't let your jealousy overshadow the fact that the middle class is being royally raped by the government on cars, gas, electricity and food back home.

As I said, I don't know about other countries other than Canada. Prices to me are sky high in Canada due to import duties and VAT.

But the US doesn't charge import duties so things like computers, TV's and all electronics are cheap. Cars are very cheap. I just bought a new 2014 Honda CRV 4x4 (all wheel limited slip) loaded with goodies for about 800k baht all in. Then I stopped at the gas station and filled it for $3.50 a US gallon. I can still buy USDA choice beef roasts or top sirloin steaks for $2.50 a pound (about $5.50 a kilo) and milk for $2.50 a gallon.

I find Thailand VERY expensive unless I change my lifestyle including driving a motorized pos roller skate, living in something very small, and eating cheap Thai food.

[tingtong]

She lives with her mom, dad and brother. Although she has her own house and that plot of land. The three cars are owned by the family. Two housekeepers are paid by the family. Does not explain how she is still able to afford parking fees, gasoline, school fees and activities for her kid, expensive dinners, consumables, holiday to HK and other stuff.

I know she is middle class. But lets not focus on my girlfriend. Lets focus on all those new modern moobarns and condo's with 3-4 cars in front and all the thai people I see at shopping malls with the latest cars, smartphones. Surely all of those people are middle class right?

i think the little correcting in the light of this second summary....

she isnt really middle class...but her family is well to do.

as for condos and cars in the front, and goodies in general, i think in Thailand a good part of that "middle class" visible wealth is just like in the West, is an illusion, bought and paid for with loans. More often than not for the sake of face they are slaving away for this illusion.

while i agree that life is short and one needs to enjoy, on the other hand i dont want that my kid's only inheritage will be my debts (apart from his semi-white skin, that undeniable is an asset with the thai girls).

so, not being able to afford the mentioned lifesyle can be reason of 2 things:

either you dont want to live on excess debts, and say no to buy those things, or simple you are too poor vs. those ppl, and your percieved mid-class existance is indeed a lower middle class or bellow level.

after all, while in USA poverty level per family is about 25.000usd/yr income...vs. in Thailand that 750.000baht/family/year can easily considered middle class.

[David48]

Only 2.65 % of Thai population pay taxes. Thats why middle class Thais have a lot of money. In europe they take all our money in taxes and fees, so we end with a low middle class.

About 17% I believe.

No,it is about 3%.

References please ... anyone

[MrHammer]

-snip-

But don't let your jealousy overshadow the fact that the middle class is being royally raped by the government on cars, gas, electricity and food back home.

As I said, I don't know about other countries other than Canada. Prices to me are sky high in Canada due to import duties and VAT.

But the US doesn't charge import duties so things like computers, TV's and all electronics are cheap. Cars are very cheap. I just bought a new 2014 Honda CRV 4x4 (all wheel limited slip) loaded with goodies for about 800k baht all in. Then I stopped at the gas station and filled it for $3.50 a US gallon. I can still buy USDA choice beef roasts or top sirloin steaks for $2.50 a pound (about $5.50 a kilo) and milk for $2.50 a gallon.

I find Thailand VERY expensive unless I change my lifestyle including driving a motorized pos roller skate, living in something very small, and eating cheap Thai food.

The US is an anomaly in the western world and it is still significantly free market oriented compared to most European countries and the middle class in the US has a higher standard of living than the middle class in Europe. Purchasing power outside NY, LA and such is much higher in the US than in Europe. Of course, Americans have to pay their own health insurance which for some apparantly can be costly, but it is not my understanding that an employed middle class family in the US have huge problems with this.

And I agree that Thailand is expensive for a lot of middle class goods. For example, I would like to buy a wine cellar/wine cooler. There are plenty available for 100-200 dollars on Amazon, while Powerbuy only have them around $500. This is because the demand is only there from the upper class and so the only option is to buy upper class or not to buy at all. But I still maintain that home ownership and car ownership is the base definition of middle class and I actually think that is easier in Thailand than many european countries.

[flyingdoc]

It is amazing just how class conscious Thais are. I thought it was confined mainly to the U.K, but it certainly isn't.

In one case, I met a Thai shop owner who sported a lovely pedigree Chihuahua. I was amazed to find another shop owner just 2 shops away, who also had a similar dog. I aske them how they got on with each other, and was amazed to learn that not only did they not know each other, but the better class one clearly had no intention of getting to know the other either! Just one tiny example, but a significant pointer. Thais who are considered wealthy in Thailand, would not be so classified in the U.K or USA, yet those really wealthy ones just acquire more properties and vehicles quietly without much song and dance, and educate their children in Europe or the U.S, and clearly they are competing on an open market, and certainly would be Upper Middle Class at least, by any standards!

[bonobo]

Comparing values in dollars is like comparing apples and pears.

What counts is the substance - a house that costs 500k in the USA would cost only about 150k-200k in Thailand.

I just helped my g/f buy a house here on the outskirts of Bangkok. It is OK, a bit small, a tiny yard, and many small issues because of shoddy construction.

I also just bought a house in Las Vegas in an upscale area. It is literally three times as big as the Bangkok home, has three times the land, and is very well made. All the appliances are not top of the line, but definitely in the upper tier. Construction is of much, much higher quality than the Thai home.

The house in Bangkok? 4.5 million baht. Add in a kitchen, air conditioners, roof over the back, hot water heaters, etc., and it goes up to almost 5 million, and that is with economy appliances and an Ikea kitchen.

The house in Las Vegas? 6.3 million baht

We also looked at a house in Bang Khae at 6.9 million. It would have needed the appliances for the kitchen, hot water heaters, and some air conditioners. She didn't get it because she thought the monthly payments exceeded her budget, but the Las Vegas house was still twice the size with twice the yard and much better constructed.

I realize that Bangkok is more expensive than, say Ubon, but neither of these houses were in Bangkok proper, and I can find cheaper houses in the US than the one I just bought. Maybe not in San Fran or New York, but in most of the country.

You're comparing a capital city, in a country with a relatively high population density, against a place built in a country with a far lower population density overall, in a state with an even lower population density because it's essentially built in a desert..

Add in that Thailand has been virtually unaffected by the crash in 2008, whereas Las Vegas was it's epicentre.

i.e. You're comparing Las Vegas prices after a crash, to the equivalent of London after a boom (but in a country where the average wage is something like a fifth of what it is in the US/UK). i.e. Multiply your 5m baht by 5, and you'll get the approximate £0.25m price of a fairly small house in the outskirts of London (or a small flat closer in - but not in the middle).

I bought a house in London in 1999, and our house in Bangkok in 2001. Both cost roughly the same, and unlike your Las Vegas comparison, the house in London is SIGNIFICANTLY smaller. Even with the change in value of the baht though, and the crash in the west, the house in London was a better financial investment. If you want a long-term investment in Thailand, I honestly think you'd be better off buying land than a house, or if you want an income stream, a condo/flat. You should only buy a house here as a place to live, not as an investment.

As for the buildings... - In the US everything will be to code, but it's probably timber-frame? Termites mean that they don't build with timber-frame construction here. Roof trusses are steel, etc. So the basic structure of the Thai building is probably stronger (and definitely less liable to burn down in a fire).

The difference is more in the quality of the job done. - i.e. in the US...

• Windows will be better built (double or triple-glazed - built in a factory to a specification - that they will meet).
• The electrical supply will undoubtedly be earthed properly (not guaranteed in Thailand).
• Insulation - will have actually been designed into the build, where in Thailand, windows are invariably single glazed, and I have yet to see anything beyond the silver foil stuff that you see in the roof as insulation in a Thai house.
• Waste pipes may well be plastic, but supply pipes will normally be copper.
• Where plastic pipes have been used, they will be installed properly - i.e. If they go through concrete, there should be a sleeve to allow for expansion/contraction. I have yet to see that in a house built in Thailand, where they simply pour the concrete with the pipes in places, which means a few years down the line - you get leaks from your pipes.

Some things can be done better here. Marble flooring is SO much cheaper to get done here. The same is true for granite worktops in kitchens. Because the labour cost is a fraction of what it is in the west, and stone-cutting is a well understood craft.

In the same way, you can have bespoke woodwork done here comparatively cheaply.

The problem is that even where where high-standard fixtures have been used, the installation may not be 100%. - i.e. There is always something in the house where you go - "why didn't they use a spirit level?"

The real difference is in the developed world, you're required to use a QUALIFIED plumber and a QUALIFIED electrician. In Thailand, I sincerely hope that's a requirement in large condo or hotel builds and the like (at least as a supervisor), but I honestly don't think most plumbers and electricians here in the home sector have received any proper training.

Middle class quality of life here is better only BECAUSE it's so cheap to hire staff. i.e. You don't need to buy a dishwasher when you have a maid. And you have a maid because you have to clean so much more often (ants!!!), and hiring a maid is so much less hassle than doing it yourself.

Actually, the house here in Thailand is not in Bangkok, but outside. The same house inside Bangkok would be much, much more expensive. As far as Las Vegas, I also did extensive house hunting in San Antonio, Portland, Washington DC, Raleigh, San Diego, and Orlando. Excepting San Diego, the home prices in all of these were comparable, with DC a bit higher.

As far as population density, that is irrelevant. The question concerns living costs in Thailand vs Europe/North America and the whole middle class concept, not homes in areas of relative population densities. I know homes in Germany and Austria are quite expensive, but I was replying specifically to a comment concerning the US market. And right now, at this moment in time, I contend that homes are cheaper most of the US than in the Bangkok area. I don't know about homes in Loei nor Hat Yai, and I am not writing about homes in Las Vegas in 2005, but the here and now.

[Nana Cowboy]

yes she's a real tycoon for sure. you got urself a super rich keeper

[bocceball1]

Only 2.65 % of Thai population pay taxes. Thats why middle class Thais have a lot of money. In europe they take all our money in taxes and fees, so we end with a low middle class.

About 17% I believe.

No,it is about 3%.

References please ... anyone

Hazz at <URL Automatically Removed> ...referred to this article in the Bangkok Post....sorry if the cut and paste looks weird....

Just 2.3 million people nationwide pay personal income tax to help finance public spending for the country's population of more than 64 million, says Satit Rungkasiri, the director-general of the Fiscal Policy Office.

While some 9 million people file personal income tax returns each year, the majority are exempt from tax liability as they earn less than 20,000 baht per month.

"Just 2.3 million people have to carry the burden for the entire population," Mr Satit said yesterday at the FPO's annual economics symposium. This year's theme focused on economic and social inequality, a major theme in the government's broader social and political reconciliation roadmap.

A closer look at the tax figures offers even a bleaker picture of the gap between rich and poor. Some 60,000 people each year pay taxes at the highest bracket of 37%, which applies for annual income of more than 4 million baht per year.

This group of 60,000 taxpayers however account for as much as 50% of total personal income tax collected each year. And a full one-third of income tax collected is paid by just 2,400 people in the country earning over 10 million baht per year.

Mr Satit said over the past two decades of economic growth, Thailand's income gap had remained roughly unchanged.

The richest 20% of the population account for 54% of total income, while the poorest 20% account for just 4.8%. Overall, Thailand's income distribution ranks around the middle when compared with other countries in the world.

Improving public welfare services is one means of closing income disparities, Mr Satit said.

"But economic resources are limited, so it is necessary to prioritise and focus on fundamental areas, such as education and health care," he said.

Welfare spending has increased significantly in recent years, including funding for free education for students, pension payments for the elderly and utilities subsidies for the poor.

On the funding side, the government is preparing to pass a new land and building tax aimed at encouraging landowners to develop properties and reduce land speculation in the market. Authorities estimate that 70% of total landholdings in the country are undeveloped.

Another law would establish a national savings fund to help boost retirement savings for the poor.

Deputy finance minister Pradit Phataraprasit said over time, it has become evident that efforts to reduce income disparity through redistribution have had little effect.

"Rather than thinking of how to split the cake, we should consider how to make the cake bigger, to help improve quality of life for the poor," he said.

Reaching this goal will depend on strengthening the economy's competitiveness. Mr Pradit noted that Singapore currently enjoyed per capita income up to six times that of Thailand.

"The aim of taxes shouldn't be to finance welfare programmes alone, but rather to strengthen the economy's competitiveness and guide future investment within the economy," he said.

bangkokpost.com

[FiftyTwo]

But I still maintain that home ownership and car ownership is the base definition of middle class and I actually think that is easier in Thailand than many european countries.

And you would be wrong, the highest percentage of home owners are in third world countries like Bulgaria and Nepal.

The lowest percentage of home owners are in places like Germany and France.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

[InsideOut]

She is probably upper middle class.

And middle class Europeans? What does that really mean? It is a HUUUUUUGE difference between Southern and Eastern Europeans to many North-Western Europeans.

Many Southern and Eastern Europeans are dirt poor, much worse off than middle class thais.

[Morakot]

End of the day, middle class is middle class.

If not upper middle class...

Edited October 8, 2013 by Morakot

[Morakot]

How does the OP know that they are middle class? A list of material possession and purchasing capabilities are not necessarily a benchmark for class.

Edited October 8, 2013 by Morakot

[wilcopops]

Ridiculous question - all that happens is a load of nonsense about nothing as the premise is not defined

first define middle class - how much of a proportion of each country will then fit your =definition - is it the same in both countries?

THen define wealthy - (e.g. if things are cheaper in one country does that mean they are wealthier or poorer people can buy)

[x0r1987]

Middle Class Thai Vs Middle Class Australia..

Not even a question that the Aus Middle Class will generally have more wealth to their name.... min price for a house 300k, average 500k, which would be 15mill baht...

the average middle class thai familys ive seen (Bangkok and Ubon only) do not have anything near that...

Perhaps the OP was looking to compare middle class Thai's to low class westerners? Even then for Australia, the low class probably still do better.. Welfare (sit on your ass, do nothing but look for work) provides about 40,000 baht a month for a single person.... Goes up when you involve kids..

[mogandave]

It depends on how you define middle class. If you mean the 90% of people under the normal curve, then no.

[pokerkid]

So either the OP's GF inherited a lot of stuff or have a very high income (depending on the value of the houses/property).

Not necessarily.

I know a lady with several nice condo's a nice house and several vehicles she rents out plus a few bikes. She has a Japanese friend who sends her money every month a boy friend from Russia who receives money every month and a mutual friend who loans her money from time to time as he knows he will get it back. She knows how to invest and find clients for her rentals. Also will occasionally spend some time with a wealthy person.

She is not middle class. Financially speaking as that is how the OP is judging she is low upper class.

So basicly she is a golddigger/prostitute who has a few sponsors on the side

[pokerkid]

End of the day, middle class is middle class. They aren't wealthier because they are all grouped as middle class. If we sold our middle class house here and bought a house in Thailand, Id move to upper class. If a middle class Thai sold and bought in Australia, they would be lucky to still be middle class and probably drop a class, and they would find rice is more expensive also.

You can't buy class dear boy.

In Thailand you can

[wilcopops]

End of the day, middle class is middle class. They aren't wealthier because they are all grouped as middle class. If we sold our middle class house here and bought a house in Thailand, Id move to upper class. If a middle class Thai sold and bought in Australia, they would be lucky to still be middle class and probably drop a class, and they would find rice is more expensive also.

You can't buy class dear boy.

In Thailand you can

No - they just think they can - you can tell.

[FiftyTwo]

End of the day, middle class is middle class. They aren't wealthier because they are all grouped as middle class. If we sold our middle class house here and bought a house in Thailand, Id move to upper class. If a middle class Thai sold and bought in Australia, they would be lucky to still be middle class and probably drop a class, and they would find rice is more expensive also.

You can't buy class dear boy.

In Thailand you can

And America, and Russia ........

[wilcopops]

wife with fibreglass hair and a Lambo doesn't equal class