About Thai-Farang child owning land In Thailand

[Fishfarmer]

My son is thai-farang. He is 7 years old and is both Thai and Swedish citizen.

I have divorced his mother and she is planing to transfer land in his name.

Are there any limits to how many rai he can own?

I have heard something about a 50 rai limit.

[Hugh Jarse]

Talk to a competent law firm about this as complex issues involved.

[VisaProblem]

Hi, this is highly pertinent to my daughter and I would like some considered answers to those who have knowledge ....

# SECONDARY POSTER - Can you please expand on what you mean by "complex issues" ?

The way I saw it is that if a person has a Thai BahtBrachachon and a Passport then you are Thai and have the same voting and property rights as any other Thai regardless of who you father is, or, what other passports you may also possess.

A Thai child (luukkrung born here and has all the paper work) is legally immature cannot be issued the Baatbrachachon until they are an adult (like any other Thai child), but they do have the Thai passport and the birth certificate.

# Is the 50 rai limit a rumor ?

# Is it actually based in the actual Civil and Commercial Codes of Thai Law ? If so which section number ?

# If so, Is this limit based on "immature children" or "persons of dual citizenship" ?

OP - THANKS VERY MUCH FOR ASKING A GOOD QUESTION

[flyingdoc]

Definitely talk to a lawyer who specializes in these kinds of issues - not just an ordinary practitioner.

[bozzman111]

hi my daughter is half thai and half irish she is 7 years old living in oz had her thai id card made in the amphoe while on holidays here

she can not be put on the blue house book as owner till she is 20

cheers

b

[maprao]

Bozzman Blue house book (Tabien Ban) does not indicate ownership. Only people who reside at that address. Do some more research someone is misinforming you..

[VisaProblem]

OK. Just seen 2011 update to law ushering in Baat Brachachons (ID CARDs) for children 7 yrs up.

Does anyone have any links to the Civil Law Code regarding kids and limitations to property ?

THANKS!

BOZZMAN - The blue book (Tabien Baan) is essentially who is officially registered to residing at the house - this is not ownership. Ownership is conferred and confirmed by Title Deeds (Chanotes, NS3's etc) and look like a single larger-than-A4 heavyish cream or beige color paper with the current owner's name on the back.

Edited October 17, 2013 by VisaProblem

[Beetlejuice]

In answer to the OP`s questions:

Regardless of parents, any child who has Thai citizenship can own land and property in trust and will have full rights as an adult over the land and property at age 20 years old.

But, although the child’s name is on the land and property in trust, the Thai mother still maintains full rights over the child and the real estate and can sell the land or transfer the names at anytime prior to the child reaching the age of 20 years old. The Thai mother if she qualifies, is also eligible to take out loans on the real estate even if it is placed in trust to a Thai child or children until they reach 20 years of age.

Another point is how the land was purchased in the first place. If it was financially purchased by the farang husband using his wife as an upfront Thai name to acquire ownership, than the original purchase was illegal to start with and this may cause problems later on if anyone or the Thai wife’s family or some smart lawyer disputes that the land and property trust in the child’s name is legal and could result in the authorities confiscating the land if the case went to court regarding ownership rights or someone shops the OP.

[cabanlit]

Beetlejuice, that is SO wrong!

For starters, the Thai mother may, or may not, have full rights over the child. If they have been given away upon divorce, by way of 100% parental control to the father, then it is the father who has the rights, not the mother. In this instance, we don't know the situation here.

Secondly, neither father nor mother can just sell or transfer at "anytime". If the property is in the name of the minor child, then any transactions MUST be for the benefit of said child (not for the benefit of either parent) and will be decided by the Family Court.

[Beetlejuice]

Beetlejuice, that is SO wrong!

For starters, the Thai mother may, or may not, have full rights over the child. If they have been given away upon divorce, by way of 100% parental control to the father, then it is the father who has the rights, not the mother. In this instance, we don't know the situation here.

Secondly, neither father nor mother can just sell or transfer at "anytime". If the property is in the name of the minor child, then any transactions MUST be for the benefit of said child (not for the benefit of either parent) and will be decided by the Family Court.

Wanna bet?

[ChrisB87]

In answer to the OP`s questions:

Regardless of parents, any child who has Thai citizenship can own land and property in trust and will have full rights as an adult over the land and property at age 20 years old.

But, although the child’s name is on the land and property in trust, the Thai mother still maintains full rights over the child and the real estate and can sell the land or transfer the names at anytime prior to the child reaching the age of 20 years old. The Thai mother if she qualifies, is also eligible to take out loans on the real estate even if it is placed in trust to a Thai child or children until they reach 20 years of age.

Another point is how the land was purchased in the first place. If it was financially purchased by the farang husband using his wife as an upfront Thai name to acquire ownership, than the original purchase was illegal to start with and this may cause problems later on if anyone or the Thai wife’s family or some smart lawyer disputes that the land and property trust in the child’s name is legal and could result in the authorities confiscating the land if the case went to court regarding ownership rights or someone shops the OP.

It's good to know they don't discriminate between Thai dual-nationals and Thai single-nationals, but one thing i can't get my head around is how they can say it's illegal for a Thai person to buy land/property with money they got as a gift (from a foreigner). I don't see how the foreigner could have any legal claim to it under those circumstances.

[Beetlejuice]

In answer to the OP`s questions:

Regardless of parents, any child who has Thai citizenship can own land and property in trust and will have full rights as an adult over the land and property at age 20 years old.

But, although the child’s name is on the land and property in trust, the Thai mother still maintains full rights over the child and the real estate and can sell the land or transfer the names at anytime prior to the child reaching the age of 20 years old. The Thai mother if she qualifies, is also eligible to take out loans on the real estate even if it is placed in trust to a Thai child or children until they reach 20 years of age.

Another point is how the land was purchased in the first place. If it was financially purchased by the farang husband using his wife as an upfront Thai name to acquire ownership, than the original purchase was illegal to start with and this may cause problems later on if anyone or the Thai wife’s family or some smart lawyer disputes that the land and property trust in the child’s name is legal and could result in the authorities confiscating the land if the case went to court regarding ownership rights or someone shops the OP.

It's good to know they don't discriminate between Thai dual-nationals and Thai single-nationals, but one thing i can't get my head around is how they can say it's illegal for a Thai person to buy land/property with money they got as a gift (from a foreigner). I don't see how the foreigner could have any legal claim to it under those circumstances.

Some years ago it was illegal in Thailand for a Thai spouse if married to a farang husband to own any land and real estate at all. Then later after some protests to the Government they relaxed these laws and permitted Thai spouses married to farangs to own land and real estate on condition, unless under special circumstances, that the real estate was purchased solely with the Thai wife`s money. There are several reasons for this, but I would need to start a whole new thread on this subject just to explain it all.

One possible way to get around this, although it`s not 100% and at the end of the day still left up to the discretion of a judge, is to obtain a legal document by a Thai lawyer describing any monies for the purchase of land as a non interest loan, with certain terms and conditions agreed by all parties concerned applicable under Thai law. It has to be a non interest loan otherwise the farang maybe perceived as running a loan company.

If a farang purchases real estate for a Thai woman and they are not officially married, than unless agreed as a loan, it is classified as a gift and is in fact a deal placed on trust or in other words a worthless gentlemen`s agreement.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Beetlejuice

[ChrisB87]

In answer to the OP`s questions:

Regardless of parents, any child who has Thai citizenship can own land and property in trust and will have full rights as an adult over the land and property at age 20 years old.

But, although the child’s name is on the land and property in trust, the Thai mother still maintains full rights over the child and the real estate and can sell the land or transfer the names at anytime prior to the child reaching the age of 20 years old. The Thai mother if she qualifies, is also eligible to take out loans on the real estate even if it is placed in trust to a Thai child or children until they reach 20 years of age.

Another point is how the land was purchased in the first place. If it was financially purchased by the farang husband using his wife as an upfront Thai name to acquire ownership, than the original purchase was illegal to start with and this may cause problems later on if anyone or the Thai wife’s family or some smart lawyer disputes that the land and property trust in the child’s name is legal and could result in the authorities confiscating the land if the case went to court regarding ownership rights or someone shops the OP.

It's good to know they don't discriminate between Thai dual-nationals and Thai single-nationals, but one thing i can't get my head around is how they can say it's illegal for a Thai person to buy land/property with money they got as a gift (from a foreigner). I don't see how the foreigner could have any legal claim to it under those circumstances.

Some years ago it was illegal in Thailand for a Thai spouse if married to a farang husband to own any land and real estate at all. Then later after some protests to the Government they relaxed these laws and permitted Thai spouses married to farangs to own land and real estate on condition, unless under special circumstances, that the real estate was purchased solely with the Thai wife`s money. There are several reasons for this, but I would need to start a whole new thread on this subject just to explain it all.

One possible way to get around this, although it`s not 100% and at the end of the day still left up to the discretion of a judge, is to obtain a legal document by a Thai lawyer describing any monies for the purchase of land as a non interest loan, with certain terms and conditions agreed by all parties concerned applicable under Thai law. It has to be a non interest loan otherwise the farang maybe perceived as running a loan company.

If a farang purchases real estate for a Thai woman and they are not officially married, than unless agreed as a loan, it is classified as a gift and is in fact a deal placed on trust or in other words a worthless gentlemen`s agreement.

Thanks for the info. So does that mean it's better to be married at the time?

[FiftyTwo]

So many wrong answers, on so simple an issue.

1. A Thai child can own any amount of land in their own name.

Their ID number is printed on their birth certificate and Tabian Baan book.

2. When the child acquires the land, one parent is nominated to manage the land until the child is age 20.

That parent is decided by mutual consent of both parents, at the time of transfer to the child, it is only changed by the death of the nominated parent. Custody of the child is irrelevant to the land management. Foreigner parents can be appointed to manage the land. The appointed manager is named on the land chanote. The appointed manager may not sell the land, or take any action to significantly devalue it.

3. Trusts do not exist in Thailand.

Problem areas.

The Thai spouse may conspire with corrupt officials at the land office to:-

1. Refuse to register the land in the child's name.

2. Refuse to register the land manager as a foreigner.

3. Sale of the land before the child is 20 must be done by court order, I know of no such order ever granted.

4. No loans may be raised on land owned by a child.

Edited October 17, 2013 by FiftyTwo

[ChrisB87]

But to try to answer the OP's question, i will ask my uni prof (who is a lawyer). He might know some of the facts.

[VisaProblem]

Really good topic and so important to so many people.

Here are some links of primary source legal docs, that are not opinions. I will try to fish around in them:

The Civil and Commercial Code
http://www.thailandlawonline.com/table-of-contents/thai-private-law-the-civil-and-commercial-code

GUARDIANSHIP Part III of Book 5

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/thai-family-and-marriage-law/civil-law-guardianship-during-minority

-------------------------------

PARENT & CHILD TITLE II CHAPTER 1

http://www.thailandlawonline.com/thai-family-and-marriage-law/civil-law-parentage-rights-duties-parent-and-child

Section 1574. A person exercising parental power cannot enter into any of the following juristic acts with regard to the property of the minor except with permission of the Court;

1. selling, exchanging, sale with right of redemption, letting out property on hire-purchase, mortgaging, releasing mortgage to mortgagor or transferring the right of mortgage on immovable property or on mortgageable movable property;
2. extinguishing the whole or a part of real right of the minor on immovable property;
3. creating servitude, right of inhabitation, right of superficies, usufruct or any charge on immovable property;
4. disposing of the whole or a part of the claim the purpose of which is to create real right on immovable property or on mortgageable property, or the claim the purpose of which is to have a real right on such property of the minor relieved;
5. letting immovable property for more than three years;
6. creating any commitments the purpose of which is to achieve the objective as provided in (1), (2) and (3);
7. making a loan of money;
8. making a gift, except out of the income of the minor on the minor’s behalf for charitable, social or moral purposes, and suitable to the minor’s condition in life;
9. accepting a gift subject to any condition or charge, or refusing a gift;
10. giving guarantee by any means whatsoever which may cause the minor to be compelled to perform an obligation or to enter into other juristic act, as requiring the minor to perform an obligation to other person or on behalf of other person;
11. making benefit out of the property other than those provided in Section 1598/4 (1), (2) or (3)
12. making a compromise;
13. submitting a dispute to arbitration.

SO THAT MEANS FAMILY COURT NEEDS TO GET INVOLVED FOR A PARENT TO LIQUIDATE , SELL, BORROW AGAINST OR TRANSFER A PROPERTY BELONGING TO A (THEIR) CHILD

ENGLISH IS NOT A LEGAL LANGUAGE IN THAILAND SO REALLY TO GO THE REAL SOURCE ONE WOULD HAVE TO FIND SECTION 1574 IN A THAI LANGUAGE LAW BOOK AND TRANSLATE WITH REAL ATTENTION TO MEANING AND DETAIL

-------------------

Also helpful

http://www.thailawforum.com/database.html

Edited October 17, 2013 by VisaProblem

[Beetlejuice]

So many wrong answers, on so simple an issue.

1. A Thai child can own any amount of land in their own name.

Their ID number is printed on their birth certificate and Tabian Baan book.

2. When the child acquires the land, one parent is nominated to manage the land until the child is age 20.

That parent is decided by mutual consent of both parents, at the time of transfer to the child, it is only changed by the death of the nominated parent. Custody of the child is irrelevant to the land management. Foreigner parents can be appointed to manage the land. The appointed manager is named on the land chanote. The appointed manager may not sell the land, or take any action to significantly devalue it.

3. Trusts do not exist in Thailand.

Problem areas.

The Thai spouse may conspire with corrupt officials at the land office to:-

1. Refuse to register the land in the child's name.

2. Refuse to register the land manager as a foreigner.

3. Sale of the land before the child is 20 must be done by court order, I know of no such order ever granted.

4. No loans may be raised on land owned by a child.

Different rules apply where a Westerner, foreigner is involved.

A Thai mother can still have control over the land.

If a child can be named on the land papers as an owner but not allowed to sell under adulthood, than that is a trust.

My advice to the OP is: obtain advice from a reputable lawyer because this is not a cut and dry as many may believe.

[VisaProblem]

"

1. Different rules apply where a Westerner, foreigner is involved.

2. A Thai mother can still have control over the land.

3. If a child can be named on the land papers as an owner but not allowed to sell under adulthood, than that is a trust."

-----------------------------

Hi Beetlejuice,

Where are you getting these three points from ? Can you please provide your source for this ?

I see nothing to support statement 1 at all about different rules for farang parents.

Re statement 2. I see nothing in the Thai Law codes that favors Thai mothers. The word "control" is ambiguous. Improvements can be made, short 3 year leases given, but no sales or transfers without the agreement of the family court who essentially control the property's fate guarding against shabby parenting or guardians.

Can you please provide information to back up statements 1 and 2 ?

Thanks.

Edited October 17, 2013 by VisaProblem

[Beetlejuice]

"

1. Different rules apply where a Westerner, foreigner is involved.

2. A Thai mother can still have control over the land.

3. If a child can be named on the land papers as an owner but not allowed to sell under adulthood, than that is a trust."

-----------------------------

Hi Beetlejuice,

Where are you getting these three points from ? Can you please provide your source for this ?

I see nothing to support statement 1 at all about different rules for farang parents.

Re statement 2. I see nothing in the Thai Law codes that favors Thai mothers. The word "control" is ambiguous. Improvements can be made, short 3 year leases given, but no sales or transfers without the agreement of the family court who essentially control the property's fate guarding against shabby parenting or guardians.

Can you please provide information to back up statements 1 and 2 ?

Thanks.

A farang parent will not be given any controls over land or property in the name of his Thai wife or in the names of any other Thais, unless in special circumstances, i.e, it`s part of a business and so on.

Many farangs now are looking at placing their properties into the names of their children as a loophole in the law to gain ownership, but the authorities are already on to this.

There is nothing barring farang husbands from taking these disputes to the civil court, but in 99% of cases they will lose.

As I said previous, best to seek the advice of a reputable Thai lawyer.

[VisaProblem]

Hi,

"A farang parent will not be given any controls over land or property in the name of his Thai wife or in the names of any other Thais, unless in special circumstances, i.e, it`s part of a business and so on."

I am assuming this is a reference to the law that prevents us dastardly foreigners from appointing nominees to control land ?

[dighambara]

Bozzman Blue house book (Tabien Ban) does not indicate ownership. Only people who reside at that address. Do some more research someone is misinforming you..

This seems contrary to common usage, as I have a couple of blue books, do not reside at either place, yet my name appears in both books,

Edited October 17, 2013 by dighambara

[SurinBeach]

Are you THAI ?

If not Yellow Book perhaps !

Bozzman Blue house book (Tabien Ban) does not indicate ownership. Only people who reside at that address. Do some more research someone is misinforming you..

This seems contrary to common usage, as I have a couple of blue books, do not reside at either place, yet my name appears in both books,

[ThailandInvestmentGuide]

There have been many prior threads on the subject of minor children being listed as the owners of land. I would suggest that those who are interested do a forum search to try to locate some of these, as this current thread so far features more misinformation than information. Try search words like "minors owning land" "children buying land" etc and similar and see what comes up. Also look out for articles in some of the web sites maintained by reputable Thai law firms, including for example samuiforsale.com.

This particular approach to securing/holding Thai land will not suit everyone who has a Thai child due to several features that (depending on your specific individual circumstances) may be major drawbacks, and a couple of these have been mentioned in this thread.

It also bears repeating/remembering that what one person is told by a particular staffer in one land office does not make it law, nor does it mean that someone would receive the same 'information' in another land office. In other words research/consult widely before making a decision, and take any one source with a large grain of salt.

Edited October 18, 2013 by ThailandInvestmentGuide

[mikeinphuket]

Can a child at 10 years old with a thai passport be the main share holder 51% of the thai company and me as his father still be the 49% shareholder in a thai company to avoid paying yearly fees to Thais I don't even know in my thai company just to own a condo in Thailand

It's a ridiculous situation as should I die I would want him to have the condo anyway !

I was never married to his mother thankfully and our son has dual passports

Funny how Thais can buy in my country but I can't buy in there's

Hardly fair really is it

[sezzo]

Sorry for going a bit off track on this thread. My step-daughter who is now living in Australia is about to gain Australian citizenship in the next couple of weeks. She has indicated to me that she would like to buy some land over here (Thailand) and have the title/chanote in her name. As she still has her ID card, Thai Passport will she still be able to own land here once she gets her Australian citizenship.

Thanks

[FiftyTwo]

Sorry for going a bit off track on this thread. My step-daughter who is now living in Australia is about to gain Australian citizenship in the next couple of weeks. She has indicated to me that she would like to buy some land over here (Thailand) and have the title/chanote in her name. As she still has her ID card, Thai Passport will she still be able to own land here once she gets her Australian citizenship.

Thanks

yes

[Arkady]

Hi, this is highly pertinent to my daughter and I would like some considered answers to those who have knowledge ....

# SECONDARY POSTER - Can you please expand on what you mean by "complex issues" ?

The way I saw it is that if a person has a Thai BahtBrachachon and a Passport then you are Thai and have the same voting and property rights as any other Thai regardless of who you father is, or, what other passports you may also possess.

A Thai child (luukkrung born here and has all the paper work) is legally immature cannot be issued the Baatbrachachon until they are an adult (like any other Thai child), but they do have the Thai passport and the birth certificate.

# Is the 50 rai limit a rumor ?

# Is it actually based in the actual Civil and Commercial Codes of Thai Law ? If so which section number ?

# If so, Is this limit based on "immature children" or "persons of dual citizenship" ?

OP - THANKS VERY MUCH FOR ASKING A GOOD QUESTION

The 50 rai limit actually came in with the 1954 Land Code but was ruled unconstitutional by the Supreme Court in 1959 and that part of the law was repealed. It was extremely unpopular amongst powerful figures at the time and there has never been a convincing push to reinstate it or anything similar. The limit was part of Pibulsongkram's nationalist ideology to prevent the Chinese money lenders, who were perceived as bloodsuckers, from forcing Thai peasants off the land which he believed would fuel the communist threat. At any rate legislation remained in place until about the late 70s that made it very hard for creditors to foreclose on farmers' land and much of the countryside was without proper title also till the 70s . Now it is no holds barred.

If you have just heard this 50 rai rumour, you are about 60 years too late.

[liddelljohn]

under 20 years a child cannot own land ,, ,so a Thai trustee is required and thats usually a major risk .

[FiftyTwo]

under 20 years a child cannot own land ,, ,so a Thai trustee is required and thats usually a major risk .

<deleted>!

No Thai trustee required.

One of the parents is named as manager at the time of transfer to minor.

Manager can be any nationality, has no right to sell or do anything that will reduce value of property.

Anyone who tries to tell you different is lying/corrupt/incompetent ...... take your pick.

[liddelljohn]

under 20 years a child cannot own land ,, ,so a Thai trustee is required and thats usually a major risk .

<deleted>!

No Thai trustee required.

One of the parents is named as manager at the time of transfer to minor.

Manager can be any nationality, has no right to sell or do anything that will reduce value of property.

Anyone who tries to tell you different is lying/corrupt/incompetent ...... take your pick.

i would love that to be true mate , but i have been told by 4 lawyers and Bangkok land dept and prachinburi and pattaya land offices that My 15 year old thai daughtwer cannot hold the land willed to me by my wife without a Thai trustee ,, i cannot be a trustee as i am not a thai citizen ...

I will set up a USUFRUCT lease if i cant sell it within the 1 year time frame that I can hold it in my name as it was willed to me .

lying/corrupt/incompetent, possibly all true , its often the case here that one government dept does not know what its own rules are , and pattaya land office is certainly corrupt ,, many copy chanuts get issued ,,,by certain officials there who never get prosecuted ,, i lost a condo unit to one of those scams but manged to recover the money in the courts , but the dodgy officials are still in their jobs .