What's yours is theirs ? ......Thai way?

[purushanti]

I do not know, but wonder, when this type of thing happens, whether it is a matter of self-awareness. If group awareness is so strong that someone does not know he is an individual, then he will not see you as an individual. Once he does see you as an individual, he can choose to respect you as such, or not.

On the other hand, maybe this is just one of those mysteries never to be fathomed by western thinking.

And of ourse there ae multiple different ways of thinking, and each is valid for its own particular culture.

Edited October 16, 2013 by purushanti

[HeijoshinCool]

What belongs to you belongs to them and what belongs to them stays with them.

Don't agree with that. While it can be very annoying, I see things switch out between family members all the time. Go to the village and don't see the washing machine (not mine anyway) and ask about it. Answer: "Oh, sister needed it so it is at her house, as all the kids are sleeping there now." That is just one example among many. For whatever reason, right now, they have taken my motorbike....and.....wait for it......given me another one! A brand new one! I have no idea why this is. Theirs is 2 weeks old and nice. Mine is 2 years old. Still fine, but a little more banged up. One day, without a doubt, I will wake up and they will be switched out again.

As long as I have the stuff I need when I need it, I don't mind. When I see someone exiting my place with an iron, I just yell out to them "hey, I need that back on Sunday night" or whenever, and they know to bring it back.

Certain things, like my computer, go untouched as it is well understood that the computer is MINE....an iron doesn't matter to me, as long as it comes back when I need it. Compromise, but hold your ground on things that matter. People here share pretty much everything.

EDIT---By the way, I had maybe 40 baht in the tank and the motorbike they left with me had a full tank.....just in case you were wondering. It had nothing to do with that.

It all depends how things are loaned when its a one way street.. no way.

I would have absolutely no problem loaning out my power tools if they were used in a proper way and not damaged. It seems that he just don't know how to use it or does not care because its not his. I am actually quite and I got a few friends one of them is a Brit and I would even loan him my tools despite him being a Brit.

Just teasing, I would loan out stuff easily if its treated with respect and brought back. I don't even need to loan from others as long as its treated well and if it breaks they replace it. Those are my rules once they are broken I don't loan anymore. You quickly learn.

A Thai friend once asked to borrow some of my high-end Makita tools. I said, sorry, no.

The next day I get an excited phone call. He tells me to come to his house, then hangs up.

I go.

He's got my 4 x 24 belt sander.

It's got his shirt.

Took twenty minutes of cutting and slicing before I freed him up. Cost me 1200 baht to get a new platen installed.

[Globeman]

It does seem to be a rural problem much more than a City problem.

This is the Thai way, and we are in Thailand!

We are in Thailand until you cross the threshold of my house and then you are in Globemanland, where the rules are different - set by me.

Think of it this way... certain human tendencies are similar all over the world, regardless of culture or race. I know people who are free and easy with lending stuff and money and those who are very tight about it - they can come from the same country - it is their individual trait, and it is their right to exercise it.

The ones that are tight I never lend anything to and would not dare to ask them to lend me anything - that's fine, it's up to them. Such individuals would also be present in the mix of people in a Thai village ("don't ever touch old grumpy Somchai's stuff - he gets very upset"), so the concept of someone whose stuff you just don't borrow would certainly exist in people's minds. (Just as the concept of the piss-taker who only receives and never gives also exists all over the world.)

So be the tight guy. They will quickly realize that borrowing your stuff without asking upsets you and will wish to avoid that conflict in the future. And word will get around pretty swiftly - of that you can be sure in a village. They may think you're a bit of an uptight dick, but that's a small price to pay. You can make up for it by being generous at times you choose to be. Bring the bottle of whisky to the party, share food, whatever, but on YOUR TERMS.

Village people may not be all that well educated and a bit set in their ways, but they generally aren't stupid and will behave in line with your boundaries - as long as you set them.

[norrona]

don't put your foot down too much, if you start being 'mean' with 'your' things and don't share then maybe they will 'tolerate' you being on 'their' land even less..... after all without you to ponce off of you are as useful as a chocolate teapot or an ashtray on a motorcycle...

How can anyone resist such temptation to make life in such a place ??

Where do I sign?

is it not already happening? shame man you are missing out....

[benalibina]

My kids are theirs now. They (FIL) never asked, just took them. Upon request to give them back, answer was NO. Born in thailand, stay in thailand !

Circles 1 chooses ? Yes.

Need to stay firm ? Yes.

I allowed them ? Yes and no.

Different culture/background, different mindset.

Now they are theirs. Forever ??

Its topics like this where 1 can see, as well, how 1 is perceived by their partner and her family/friends and which circles 1 , unknowingly, has chosen to stay with.

Holding firm to 1s own beliefs can give conflict in the relationship. So most make allowances then , and will use same tactics to others. What they do, i can do as well ! Even if it is against their own beliefs. Slippery road IMO.

[sometimewoodworker]

It dosen't only happen to us. My wife had one person come into her garden and took every one of the papays that had been left in the trees to ripen. There were about 10 of the nearly ripe almost ready to eat fruit, about 1 per tree.

So she had a sign painted that said something like "you should know what you should not take" this has upset the woman who cleaned out her papaya but SWMBO is not unhappy about that

This is the sign and for the last 9 months we've had no problems even though we are mostly in Japan.

[BudRight]

Remember that there's a double-think at work here - you're not allowed to notice that these people taking your stuff are Thai or else that's 'Thai bashing.' Best thing to do is lobotomize yourself.

[anotheruser]

Just tell them they can't ever borrow your things.

[Thaddeus]

It dosen't only happen to us. My wife had one person come into her garden and took every one of the papays that had been left in the trees to ripen. There were about 10 of the nearly ripe almost ready to eat fruit, about 1 per tree.

One per tree?

If you believe that to be the standard yield from a papaya tree, someone got to them before you did, and your wife is being a little economical with the truth.

I have five papaya trees of fruit bearing age in my garden and six mango trees the same, it would be impossible for me to eat everything they produce myself (Scottish Grandies) don't get me started on the chompoo, that fires out fruit like a machine gun, so I have no problem with neighbours helping themselves.

However if one of them comes even close to my power tools, or kit-kats for that matter, they are in danger of losing a limb.

And they know it.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Thaddeus

[robblok]

What belongs to you belongs to them and what belongs to them stays with them.

Don't agree with that. While it can be very annoying, I see things switch out between family members all the time. Go to the village and don't see the washing machine (not mine anyway) and ask about it. Answer: "Oh, sister needed it so it is at her house, as all the kids are sleeping there now." That is just one example among many. For whatever reason, right now, they have taken my motorbike....and.....wait for it......given me another one! A brand new one! I have no idea why this is. Theirs is 2 weeks old and nice. Mine is 2 years old. Still fine, but a little more banged up. One day, without a doubt, I will wake up and they will be switched out again.

As long as I have the stuff I need when I need it, I don't mind. When I see someone exiting my place with an iron, I just yell out to them "hey, I need that back on Sunday night" or whenever, and they know to bring it back.

Certain things, like my computer, go untouched as it is well understood that the computer is MINE....an iron doesn't matter to me, as long as it comes back when I need it. Compromise, but hold your ground on things that matter. People here share pretty much everything.

EDIT---By the way, I had maybe 40 baht in the tank and the motorbike they left with me had a full tank.....just in case you were wondering. It had nothing to do with that.

It all depends how things are loaned when its a one way street.. no way.

I would have absolutely no problem loaning out my power tools if they were used in a proper way and not damaged. It seems that he just don't know how to use it or does not care because its not his. I am actually quite and I got a few friends one of them is a Brit and I would even loan him my tools despite him being a Brit.

Just teasing, I would loan out stuff easily if its treated with respect and brought back. I don't even need to loan from others as long as its treated well and if it breaks they replace it. Those are my rules once they are broken I don't loan anymore. You quickly learn.

A Thai friend once asked to borrow some of my high-end Makita tools. I said, sorry, no.

The next day I get an excited phone call. He tells me to come to his house, then hangs up.

I go.

He's got my 4 x 24 belt sander.

It's got his shirt.

Took twenty minutes of cutting and slicing before I freed him up. Cost me 1200 baht to get a new platen installed.

That is basically what I mean, if someone i knew would want to loan my stuff and I know he would treat it with care I have absolutely no problems with it. My tools are not that often used and I am not super great with it. However I don't misuse them. I have a nice delta grinder for wood and stuff.. loaned it to BIL it was destroyed had to get an other plastic pad for it from Europe.

Loaned the guy a fishing rod (actually gave it to him as he said he liked fishing and I had enough) what happens he sells it. I don't give away stuff to be sold, i was thinking of doing him a favor make his life a bit nicer. At one point i was actually thinking of buying the guy a chaisaw so he could make more money. But after seeing how he handled tools i decided that he either kill himself with it or destroy it quickly.

I was always taught that loaning is ok as long as you handle the stuff with extra care. I would feel awful replace stuff that i loan from someone and damage. That does not seem to be the case here so i stopped.

If my foreign friend comes by and asks me if he can loan something ill gladly let him as he takes care of it. There is an other Thai friend that I would loan stuff too as it gets back good. I just don't loan to anybody anymore it wrecks my stuff.

[bina]

sometimes i am so horrified by 'individuality' mind sets. i live in a closed community (kibbutz) and people will borrow tools from garden storage or shopping wagon parked outside the downstairs area, neighbor ran out of milk so came and took some, but we reciprocate.

in the states a few years ago, in the a/m i wanted milk for the coffee, i went out to knock on a neighbor's door, my sister was horrified. i had to drive to town to buy milk. couldnt i have just borrowed a cup?

here also, if we dont have some thai herb or veggie, hubby goes down to the thai 'camp' where the labourers live and takes from their garden. if they need something, he gives it to them. when we've needed a few pairs of helping hands on a gardening or building project, they all show up to help. if they need help with something 'israeli' then help.

samran, its not hillbilly. its agricultural community village behavior that unfortunately has all but died out in the west.

my duaghter is now in the states working on a food justice project that is exactly that: developing communites in outlying areas for people to start helping eachother out : not everyone has to havge a power saw. enough that one person has one, you can always borrow. someone else maybe bakes more then needed so dont throw away, give it to a neighbor. thats what we do here, and thats what they are doing in this project (in san diego area).

the sense of 'family' doesnt just mean parents and kids. like the arab villages here, it could mean up to 100 people. thats the good and bad of community life. the bad side is that sometmes some people 'give' more then 'receive' and that gossip runs rampant. its not the equpment that is important but the social ties so that when help is really needed, there will be help, maybe sometimes in a way that you wouldnt expect it to be. its a shame that in a suburban community of 'good families' you cant even ask for a cup of milk. what would happen if something bad happened? no one would bother. because of that 'no interferance ' attitude, lots of those 'people hidden away for months in houses being tortured' happens. or people die in apartments and rot before someoen notices.

the thais here never touch my computer, my neighbors dont go in to my bedroom and take my cosmetics, because certain lines are still draw, maybe you all just have to identify the lines?

[Nautilus05]

sometimes i am so horrified by 'individuality' mind sets. i live in a closed community (kibbutz) and people will borrow tools from garden storage or shopping wagon parked outside the downstairs area, neighbor ran out of milk so came and took some, but we reciprocate.

"but we reciprocate"

That's the key phrase, and what you said is great. I've had neighbors like that, and it's fine. My one neighbor was welcome to the motorbike anytime she needed it, but she'd always put some gas into it. If she needed something from our place, she'd just grab it, which was fine, and same with me. If I needed a dog leash or something, I'd just grab it from her place.

However, there's a segment of the Thai population that have a totally fuc_ked moral compass. Like it or not, admit it or not, it's true. These people have absolutely no self respect, shame, dignity, integrity, nothing. I came in as a naive farang, ended up going through it, and it's hell. They just take, take, take, take... and will never even lift a finger for you, let alone actually reciprocate.

The part I loved the most was when I was pissed off, and they pretended like they didn't understand what I was saying, and instead just gave me the retarded, deer-in-the-headlights stare. My Thai might not be great, but everyone else in the city seems to understand me just fine, so I'm pretty sure they did too. They were just playing dumb, dicks.

Same as when I first moved here, I thought it was quite inhumane that there's such strict social boundaries, and that the wealthier Thais look down on the poorer Thais with such utter contempt. I thought to myself, "how cruel! in Canada, we treat every human with respect!". Then I lived here for a few years, and realized that unfortunately, there's a very valid reason the wealthy look down upon the poor. They have to, otherwise they'll get eaten alive.

Edited October 16, 2013 by Nautilus05

[benalibina]

sometimes i am so horrified by 'individuality' mind sets. i live in a closed community (kibbutz) and people will borrow tools from garden storage or shopping wagon parked outside the downstairs area, neighbor ran out of milk so came and took some, but we reciprocate.

in the states a few years ago, in the a/m i wanted milk for the coffee, i went out to knock on a neighbor's door, my sister was horrified. i had to drive to town to buy milk. couldnt i have just borrowed a cup?

here also, if we dont have some thai herb or veggie, hubby goes down to the thai 'camp' where the labourers live and takes from their garden. if they need something, he gives it to them. when we've needed a few pairs of helping hands on a gardening or building project, they all show up to help. if they need help with something 'israeli' then help.

samran, its not hillbilly. its agricultural community village behavior that unfortunately has all but died out in the west.

my duaghter is now in the states working on a food justice project that is exactly that: developing communites in outlying areas for people to start helping eachother out : not everyone has to havge a power saw. enough that one person has one, you can always borrow. someone else maybe bakes more then needed so dont throw away, give it to a neighbor. thats what we do here, and thats what they are doing in this project (in san diego area).

the sense of 'family' doesnt just mean parents and kids. like the arab villages here, it could mean up to 100 people. thats the good and bad of community life. the bad side is that sometmes some people 'give' more then 'receive' and that gossip runs rampant. its not the equpment that is important but the social ties so that when help is really needed, there will be help, maybe sometimes in a way that you wouldnt expect it to be. its a shame that in a suburban community of 'good families' you cant even ask for a cup of milk. what would happen if something bad happened? no one would bother. because of that 'no interferance ' attitude, lots of those 'people hidden away for months in houses being tortured' happens. or people die in apartments and rot before someoen notices.

the thais here never touch my computer, my neighbors dont go in to my bedroom and take my cosmetics, because certain lines are still draw, maybe you all just have to identify the lines?

Agricultural community behaviour !!

Well well as much i symphatize with the outline of your comment, it stems from the fact that, based on ...whatever, people KNOW the boundaries. If the boundary has been crossed it is accepted to be critized for it. In many situations in LOS the community you refer to its familybased. The foreigner entering is initially probably unaware of it so based on trust he/she borrows something to 1 in the community. If its not been brought back or even bad ownership of said borrowed item has been displayed then the problems begin. The thai partner comes into conflict of loyalty. Many of them are loyal to the family instead of to their foreign partner.

Because of that agricultural community, thanks for making it clear for me, i and the kids are <deleted>. Its all about communication and information. IMO Samran, as you referred to him, is correct. I see though the positive outline of your post.

[Mossfinn]

I am not sure it is isolated to certain communities around the world, but individuals within communities, the usual shout of Isaan, goes up like a clarion call of slip fielders in the hope of getting a group "like", however there isn't much wrong with a request, no matter how close the society. What I find even more disturbing, is that you cannot ask a neighbour for a glass of milk, society going forward like a collapsed scrum on continuous loop.

[SeabagsFull]

For me and from me, its "relatives" but have also seen my relatives use their neighbours stuff too. I dont really have neighbours and they couldnt get within the property anyway with a 2m high wall and locked gates, dogs etc, my issue if you can call it that is with family members.

I think this is a problem related to personality. I don't mean anything derogatorily, just that some people manage this issue quite well while others have semi-breakdowns. Like mjj #12 pointed out, simply keeping things out of sight will prevent them from being used. Most Thai, e.g., won't go into your bedroom without being asked, so a good place to "hide" stuff away might be in your closet. Keys to your motorbike, put in your pocket. Etc.

I really think if you can just lay back a bit, you'll understand easier ways to deal with this than letting it stress you out.

On a personal note, I see a disconnect between your avatar & the thread. Your avatar is a picture of CAPT Picard in "Drumhead;" in that moment his credibility was being brought into question for defending the rights of one of his crewmen. His disbelief was centered on how quickly mankind can regress from enlightened growth back to barbaric accusations & witch-hunts. Yet when you talk of having a 2m-high wall around your lot to keep the locals out, one can't help but wonder if what you're trying to do is cage your family away from their natural environment.

These comments are all in fun, CharlieH. Appreciate your thought-provoking topic & discussion.

[chuenyongman]

I purchased a new electric drill. Whilst I was away my wife lent it to her niece's husband next door. A couple of weeks later i wanted to use the drill and could not find it. My wife told me it was next door. I went to retrieve it and it had been lying out in the rain. I was not impressed and I said he could keep it and buy me a replacement. A week or so went by and he came and brought me two trees for the garden. I said I cannot drill holes with bl***y trees. Never got a drill from him either.

[robblok]

I am not sure it is isolated to certain communities around the world, but individuals within communities, the usual shout of Isaan, goes up like a clarion call of slip fielders in the hope of getting a group "like", however there isn't much wrong with a request, no matter how close the society. What I find even more disturbing, is that you cannot ask a neighbour for a glass of milk, society going forward like a collapsed scrum on continuous loop.

Like it or not as pointed out its agricultural thing and guess what Isarn is more like that as other parts. I would not mind you knocking on the door for some stuff, i would gladly help out. Maybe you would help next time as I need something. Its a two way street. I think people are complaining about them giving and the others never giving back.

I was complaining about loaning out stuff that is treated with complete disrespect and others seem to have the same experience. That is just wrong no matter where you are from.

[oyster]

My personal rule when it comes to borrowing/using other peoples gear and possessions. It is non discriminatory and applies to all, regardless of race, colour, creed. Apart from the fact that it is always polite to ask first......

'Break it, you fix it. Smash it, you own it!'

Correct, and he could look on the bright side - he could be living in a score of places in the UK which were a damn sight worse.

[hookedondhamma]

How many of you have ever visited an American Indian Reservation? What you see here is exactly the same as the American Indian.

What really frustrates me (I now know the thoughts on borrow - it really means can i have - and leaving something unguarded means it will walk) is that I cannot get my wife to understand why it frustrates me! They really, honestly, right down to their toes do not understand AND do not want to understand.

Oh my for the stories that could be told................

But we stay because we understand that we are different albeit it is hard to keep telling my frustrated mind that is is why......

I have; in fact, most of my family (father's side) lives in or around one. I never have nor yet to have seen this type of behavior *with my items*; but then again, everyone is different.

[sometimewoodworker]

It dosen't only happen to us. My wife had one person come into her garden and took every one of the papays that had been left in the trees to ripen. There were about 10 of the nearly ripe almost ready to eat fruit, about 1 per tree.

One per tree?

If you believe that to be the standard yield from a papaya tree, someone got to them before you did, and your wife is being a little economical with the truth.

I have five papaya trees of fruit bearing age in my garden and six mango trees the same, it would be impossible for me to eat everything they produce myself (Scottish Grandies)

It looks as though you didn't bother to read my post. I'm well aware as you can see from the photo that I attach that papaya tree has more than one fruit.

What you didn't bother to notice is I said one ripe papaya per tree. This being is Isan the unripe papayas are taken quite quickly. It takes quite a long time to get a papaya to ripen. So one ripe or almost ripe fruit per tree is accurate and SWBMO was not being at all economical with the truth.

The woman I spoke of will take everything she can. When told she could have some mangos from my MIL's single tree she filled 2 rice sacks with mangos and left only 1 mango and she only left that because she couldn't reach it.

If someone asked you for some mangoes and papaya then after you said OK you would probably be pissed off when you looked out to see no fruit left on any tree. And have a different attitude to that person.

Others in the village are different but there are a few who just take or steal anything they can.

Edited October 17, 2013 by sometimewoodworker

[benalibina]

It dosen't only happen to us. My wife had one person come into her garden and took every one of the papays that had been left in the trees to ripen. There were about 10 of the nearly ripe almost ready to eat fruit, about 1 per tree.

One per tree?

If you believe that to be the standard yield from a papaya tree, someone got to them before you did, and your wife is being a little economical with the truth.

I have five papaya trees of fruit bearing age in my garden and six mango trees the same, it would be impossible for me to eat everything they produce myself (Scottish Grandies)

It looks as though you didn't bother to read my post. I'm well aware as you can see from the photo that I attach that papaya tree has more than one fruit.

image.jpg

What you didn't bother to notice is I said one ripe papaya per tree. This being is Isan the unripe papayas are taken quite quickly. It takes quite a long time to get a papaya to ripen. So one ripe or almost ripe fruit per tree is accurate and SWBMO was not being at all economical with the truth.

The woman I spoke of will take everything she can. When told she could have some mangos she filled 2 rice sacks and left only 1 mango and she only left that because she couldn't reach it

A small woman with a heart thus !

[Thai at Heart]

I swear, one of you fella's is going to write a book one day called 'The idiots guide to marrying into a hillbilly family'.

No it isn't the Thai way. It is a leachers way.

Man up, grow a set, and stop being walked all over.

Outstanding.

[Thai at Heart]

The annoyance is the knowledge is that there is zero chance of there being any reciprocity in the giving and taking.

There is little or nothing I would like, neef or expect from anyone, but there are always plenty who wish to "borrow" from me.

However, I must take all the responsibility should they screw something up, but there is little or no chance that they will cover for my mistakes or problems.

Once I worked out that I was the future for so many of the people around me, it became obvious that I was not the Nong. I was, am and will remain the pee in my house and among the family.

I mean honestly, what are most of them going to provide to help me or my direct family through life? They are nice people, but instead of just blind respect for their age, I prefer to apportion respect according to their achievements and ability.

Once you take that view, life becomes so much easier.

And I will say unequivocally, if your wife doesn't respect that concept in your own house, I have yet to see a long lasting marriage in that context. Stand up for your principles and beliefs. What are you man or mouse?