France.... the battle for gay marriage continues

[isanbirder]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-24579037

France's highest court has ruled that mayors cannot refuse to hold same-sex marriage ceremonies.

The mayors are the people who conduct the actual civil marriage ceremonies in France, so this is an important step.

[Dr Robert]

Good thing to have people in love who want to commit to each other and get married, bad thing to force unwilling celebrants to preside over the ceremony-recipe for conflict. Must be other options.

[ToddWeston]

Good thing to have people in love who want to commit to each other and get married, bad thing to force unwilling celebrants to preside over the ceremony-recipe for conflict. Must be other options.

Sorry to disagree however these are elected Mayors they must follow the law, if it was a member of the clergy I could see there being an issue as they would use the canon law arguement.

[Dr Robert]

Good thing to have people in love who want to commit to each other and get married, bad thing to force unwilling celebrants to preside over the ceremony-recipe for conflict. Must be other options.

Sorry to disagree however these are elected Mayors they must follow the law, if it was a member of the clergy I could see there being an issue as they would use the canon law arguement.

hmm hadn't thought of that...good point

[robblok]

Good thing to have people in love who want to commit to each other and get married, bad thing to force unwilling celebrants to preside over the ceremony-recipe for conflict. Must be other options.

Sorry to disagree however these are elected Mayors they must follow the law, if it was a member of the clergy I could see there being an issue as they would use the canon law arguement.

We had the same argument in Holland, now they are going to phase out those who are not willing to do this. Thing is they got the job before gay marriage and now their job changed some have moral objections to that. From now on every new government worker in this position has to do the marriages. Some of the older ones who were working before this law can object and then a replacement is found.

I can see the reason in that as they took a job they could preform morally and then the law changed against their morality so they could not anymore. I am pro gay marriage but I can see the others point of view too.

[isanbirder]

Good thing to have people in love who want to commit to each other and get married, bad thing to force unwilling celebrants to preside over the ceremony-recipe for conflict. Must be other options.

Sorry to disagree however these are elected Mayors they must follow the law, if it was a member of the clergy I could see there being an issue as they would use the canon law arguement.

We had the same argument in Holland, now they are going to phase out those who are not willing to do this. Thing is they got the job before gay marriage and now their job changed some have moral objections to that. From now on every new government worker in this position has to do the marriages. Some of the older ones who were working before this law can object and then a replacement is found.

I can see the reason in that as they took a job they could preform morally and then the law changed against their morality so they could not anymore. I am pro gay marriage but I can see the others point of view too.

How very practical of the Dutch! So often the emotions sweep common sense out of the window.

[robblok]

Good thing to have people in love who want to commit to each other and get married, bad thing to force unwilling celebrants to preside over the ceremony-recipe for conflict. Must be other options.

Sorry to disagree however these are elected Mayors they must follow the law, if it was a member of the clergy I could see there being an issue as they would use the canon law arguement.

We had the same argument in Holland, now they are going to phase out those who are not willing to do this. Thing is they got the job before gay marriage and now their job changed some have moral objections to that. From now on every new government worker in this position has to do the marriages. Some of the older ones who were working before this law can object and then a replacement is found.

I can see the reason in that as they took a job they could preform morally and then the law changed against their morality so they could not anymore. I am pro gay marriage but I can see the others point of view too.

How very practical of the Dutch! So often the emotions sweep common sense out of the window.

It was still an heated discussion, but I think the result was good.

[alyx]

I can see the reason in that as they took a job they could preform morally and then the law changed against their morality so they could not anymore. I am pro gay marriage but I can see the others point of view too.

Not quite sure about that one, though

As a matter of fact the mayor is the representative of the state in the municipality. As such, he is registrar and law officer / police officer.

Therefore, not only do they have to abide strictly by the French law as French citizens, but also do they have to enforce those very laws, by all the means in their power

I should add that, if they do not agree, for personal reasons, to enforce a law themselves, they have the right to ask their deputies to act en lieu de.

There is no such a thing as going along as long as it does not interfere with one's conviction

A former prime minister, Jean-Pierre Chevenement, once said, irritated by the comments of his pairs (Majority MPs) " A Cabinet minister ought to shut up, or else, resign"

Coul you imagine a police officer turning a blind eye on a crime because they feel that it does serve the victim right, or, on the contrary , performing an ID check on the sole account of their race ( délit de faciès in French, punishable by law)

No, no, no that would be a Pandora Box

[robblok]

I can see the reason in that as they took a job they could preform morally and then the law changed against their morality so they could not anymore. I am pro gay marriage but I can see the others point of view too.

Not quite sure about that one, though

As a matter of fact the mayor is the representative of the state in the municipality. As such, he is registrar and law officer / police officer.

Therefore, not only do they have to abide strictly by the French law as French citizens, but also do they have to enforce those very laws, by all the means in their power

I should add that, if they do not agree, for personal reasons, to enforce a law themselves, they have the right to ask their deputies to act en lieu de.

There is no such a thing as going along as long as it does not interfere with one's conviction

A former prime minister, Jean-Pierre Chevenement, once said, irritated by the comments of his pairs (Majority MPs) " A Cabinet minister ought to shut up, or else, resign"

Coul you imagine a police officer turning a blind eye on a crime because they feel that it does serve the victim right, or, on the contrary , performing an ID check on the sole account of their race ( délit de faciès in French, punishable by law)

No, no, no that would be a Pandora Box

Totally different examples, we are talking about something moral here and with religious implications (just for the record I am pro gay marriage and rights). Now at the time they got their jobs it did not go against their beliefs. Now all of a sudden it does so you can't expect them to resign just because of a law change. Before it was all right and now it is not.

Mind you in the Netherlands it does not mean they can't get married just can't use THAT guy a replacement will be found for him or her so the marriage can be taken place at that point. In the end they want all of those that don't want mixed marriages to go out of these jobs but in the meanwhile they can stay and stand-ins will be found. Only the most militant of gays would want someone to marry them who does not want to do so don't you agree ? This is a fine compromise and will workout better in the long run.

[ToddWeston]

I can see the reason in that as they took a job they could preform morally and then the law changed against their morality so they could not anymore. I am pro gay marriage but I can see the others point of view too.

Not quite sure about that one, though

As a matter of fact the mayor is the representative of the state in the municipality. As such, he is registrar and law officer / police officer.

Therefore, not only do they have to abide strictly by the French law as French citizens, but also do they have to enforce those very laws, by all the means in their power

I should add that, if they do not agree, for personal reasons, to enforce a law themselves, they have the right to ask their deputies to act en lieu de.

There is no such a thing as going along as long as it does not interfere with one's conviction

A former prime minister, Jean-Pierre Chevenement, once said, irritated by the comments of his pairs (Majority MPs) " A Cabinet minister ought to shut up, or else, resign"

Coul you imagine a police officer turning a blind eye on a crime because they feel that it does serve the victim right, or, on the contrary , performing an ID check on the sole account of their race ( délit de faciès in French, punishable by law)

No, no, no that would be a Pandora Box

Totally different examples, we are talking about something moral here and with religious implications (just for the record I am pro gay marriage and rights). Now at the time they got their jobs it did not go against their beliefs. Now all of a sudden it does so you can't expect them to resign just because of a law change. Before it was all right and now it is not.

Mind you in the Netherlands it does not mean they can't get married just can't use THAT guy a replacement will be found for him or her so the marriage can be taken place at that point. In the end they want all of those that don't want mixed marriages to go out of these jobs but in the meanwhile they can stay and stand-ins will be found. Only the most militant of gays would want someone to marry them who does not want to do so don't you agree ? This is a fine compromise and will workout better in the long run.

I would agree I wouldn't "demand"' to be married by a member of the clergy, I respect Canon law and in my country civil marriages are as common if not more common these days.

When we got married the question was asked if "I" wanted a Church wedding, I didn't feel it was appropriate at considering I'm marrying a Buddhist. if we were both Christian or both Buddhist maybe it would have influenced me. I also had to consider our mutual family, yes it's a right to be wed and they accepted that but it may have been a little over the top for some, finally I wouldn't be that selfish forcing a member of the clergy to marry me when the civil marriage licence carries the same weight.

We ended up being married by a reeve(mayor) and had a Buddhist blessing and one hell of a party. There was only one hitch the entire day - the DJ forgot to modify his dance instructions - I can still hear the words - After the first dance will be "The Father of the Bride" dance, I think the roaring laughter could be heard for 100 miles.

[onthemoon]

There was only one hitch the entire day - the DJ forgot to modify his dance instructions - I can still hear the words - After the first dance will be "The Father of the Bride" dance, I think the roaring laughter could be heard for 100 miles.

[robblok]

There was only one hitch the entire day - the DJ forgot to modify his dance instructions - I can still hear the words - After the first dance will be "The Father of the Bride" dance, I think the roaring laughter could be heard for 100 miles.

its good that you laugh about such stuff some might have taken it differently. I like that.

[alyx]

Totally different examples, we are talking about something moral here and with religious implications (just for the record I am pro gay marriage and rights). Now at the time they got their jobs it did not go against their beliefs. Now all of a sudden it does so you can't expect them to resign just because of a law change. Before it was alright and now it is not
Mind you in the Netherlands it does not mean they can't get married just can't use THAT guy a replacement will be found for him or her so the marriage can be taken place at that point. In the end they want all of those that don't want mixed marriages to go out of these jobs but in the meanwhile they can stay and stand-ins will be found. Only the most militant of gays would want someone to marry them who does not want to do so don't you agree ? This is a fine compromise and will workout better in the long run.

You just copy-pasted your previous message?
You seem to miss the point : the law is the law . These examples do not differ. not so long ago, some mayors were refusing to array two people on religious ground
Call it moral, religious, conservative, it doesn't change a thing. The mayor is invested by the Government
It is not whether one agrees or not , if the law was voted or not at the time
In any case , the number of "rebels" amounts to four or five, 50% coming from extrem right wings.
As a result they all backed down Edited November 2, 2013 by Tywais
Fixed quote

[robblok]

You just copy-pasted your previous message?

You seem to miss the point : the law is the law . These examples do not differ. not so long ago, some mayors were refusing to array two people on religious ground

Call it moral, religious, conservative, it doesn't change a thing. The mayor is invested by the Government

It is not whether one agrees or not , if the law was voted or not at the time

In any case , the number of "rebels" amounts to four or five, 50% coming from extrem right wings.

As a result they all backed down

I just added some extra information about the Dutch situation. It worked good you might not like it that is your opinion. I see the other side too, but I am sure having someone who hates your guts because you force him to marry you and who of course shows that will make a nice happy day for you. Its not always about right and wrong but also about living with stuff like this.

If I had a job that suddenly went against my moral code, I would like the Dutch solution a lot more then your one. As a matter of fact before I thought exactly like you and just changed my mind later about it. I looked at both sides and its not like marrying someone is a large part of a job. So you have a job you always liked and all of a sudden a small part goes against everything you stand for. You should then just stop and loose your job.. I think not.

This time it goes against your wishes but maybe next a flexible solution will benefit you.

[alyx]

Ok.....firstly it is not a job

Secondly, a mayor who doesn't agree leaves it to a deputy

[robblok]

Ok.....firstly it is not a job

Secondly, a mayor who doesn't agree leaves it to a deputy

Its a job in the Netherlands, and yes that is what happens they leave it to an other to do so.

Look I am all for this but I am just looking at it from a different perspective. This time it goes against you an other time it might work for you.

[alyx]

I don't really get your point

You are talking about the Dutch solution but France is doing the same , not only regarding gay marriage

You brush aside the fact the Mayor is not a job but that is the most important argument regarding the matter

You also keep writing that it goes against me.....it has already gone my way

Edited October 31, 2013 by alyx

[ToddWeston]

I don't really get your point

You are talking about the Dutch solution but France is doing the same , not only regarding gay marriage

You brush aside the fact the Mayor is not a job but that is the most important argument regarding the matter

You also keep writing that it goes against me.....it has already gone my way

The point is very clear - there are option in Holland.

In my professional career there were things I refused to do because it went about my moral fibre, I did however give advice and information where the request would be granted.

It's the same as I understand it in Holland - some simply will refuse, I'm okay with that as long as there is an option or it's delegated to a willing party.

Just because it's the law doesn't mean everyone will accept it. It's a choice to get married and if we had been refused by someone not willing to marry us I would have moved on and found a willing party. Simple

Things take time to evolve - that's it for my edit

Edited October 31, 2013 by ToddWeston

[alyx]

You keep referring to Holland. Fair enough but are you implying that there is no option in France ?

I have no doubt you have ethics and obviously had the luxury to be allowed to refuse what you deemed "out of line" ( nowadays not so many could afford that kind of stand) but, again, you look at this public position as a job

French people have always been that way: they prefer to give birth without a peridural and tend to loudly demonstrate their disagreement

In that case there are not so many voices and it won't be long before this is forgotten

Edited October 31, 2013 by alyx

[alyx]

In response to your edited post

French are not at liberty to move on and find a willing party as they have the right to get married in the district where the reside, or the district where their parents live ( before April 2013, only the district where they reside was possible)

The path to get married, at least for mixed couples, is kind of testing one's patience, not to add the "conscious" of the mayor

[ToddWeston]

You keep referring to Holland. Fair enough but are you implying that there is no option in France ?

I have no doubt you have ethics and obviously had the luxury to be allowed to refuse what you deemed "out of line" ( nowadays not so many could afford that kind of stand) but, again, you look at this public position as a job

French people have always been that way: they prefer to give birth without a peridural and tend to loudly demonstrate their disagreement

In that case there are not so many voices and it won't be long before this will is forgotten

I am interested to know how other EU states handle this and in Holland they've found a solution that will work.

Can France apply the same formula ? no idea but these are elected officials who have a job and a duty. I used the word "must" in my initial post on this thread I think the word "should" is more appropriate. They should follow the law, if it goes against their moral fibre then step aside and delegate but don't refuse.

You can't legislate common sense.

As for anathesia in child birth WTH is that all about

[alyx]

From your remark, I start wondering whether you are aware of the fact that France has always allowed their mayors to delegate to their deputies

As for child birth.....it was an image.....meant to be funny.....I only meant that French like to demonstrate loudly for nothing and everything

Regarding the "should" , well, the " must" is correct as it is their duty as registrar and police officer , with, as said above , the possibility to be away and delegate

Edited October 31, 2013 by alyx

[sustento]

From your remark, I start wondering whether you are aware of the fact that France has always allowed their mayors to delegate to their deputies

I think it's obvious from some of the postings on this thread that we aren't aware of the status of mayors in France. Are the civil servants? Do they work for the government?

[alyx]

This is an extract of my initial post on this thread

As a matter of fact the mayor is the representative of the state in the municipality. As such, he is registrar and law officer / police officer.

Therefore, not only do they have to abide strictly by the French law as French citizens, but also do they have to enforce those very laws, by all the means in their power

I should add that, if they do not agree, for personal reasons, to enforce a law themselves, they have the right to ask their deputies to act en lieu de.

Edited October 31, 2013 by alyx

[LeCharivari]

(edited)

We ended up being married by a reeve(mayor) and had a Buddhist blessing and one hell of a party. There was only one hitch the entire day - the DJ forgot to modify his dance instructions - I can still hear the words - After the first dance will be "The Father of the Bride" dance, I think the roaring laughter could be heard for 100 miles.

So come on .... who led the dance??

[ToddWeston]

(edited)

We ended up being married by a reeve(mayor) and had a Buddhist blessing and one hell of a party. There was only one hitch the entire day - the DJ forgot to modify his dance instructions - I can still hear the words - After the first dance will be "The Father of the Bride" dance, I think the roaring laughter could be heard for 100 miles.

So come on .... who led the dance??

I did 55555555555555

[robblok]

This is an extract of my initial post on this thread

As a matter of fact the mayor is the representative of the state in the municipality. As such, he is registrar and law officer / police officer.

Therefore, not only do they have to abide strictly by the French law as French citizens, but also do they have to enforce those very laws, by all the means in their power

I should add that, if they do not agree, for personal reasons, to enforce a law themselves, they have the right to ask their deputies to act en lieu de.

If they always let their deputies do it I see no problem, the problem arises when people can't be married in the district where they want. At that point I would change my opinion and say they should be forced.

For me the compromise should allow both parties to get what they want because next time you might be the one on the other side.

In the Netherlands they are civil servants but not majors.

[alyx]

Granted

There have been only three cases when the Mayor refused to have the marriage celebrated in their district,

arguing that they had the right of "conscience" refusing , in two cases, to delegate, the third one stating that no one was willing to do it: well, the stand off did not last long (punishable by law, the mayor can be revoked and/or face up to five years in jail assorted by a 75.000 fine) ........they eventually, and quickly, found volunteers willing to do it

Actually, although it is impossible to know how many marriages have been celebrated ( as it is not allowed to poll according to ethnicity, skin colour, religion and sexual orientation ) it is estimated that 600 marriages have taken place. 3 out of 600 ( and I don't think that we will get more of these cases ) amounts to a mere 0.5%

But sincerely these are isolated cases built to attract publicity rather than to show a position

The only real problem is that France is wary of celebrating mixed marriages, or between two foreigners, nationals of countries where homosexuality is a crime or some laws against, and with whom they have bilateral agreements ( Cambodia, Morocco ,,,,)

Furthermore, registrars, up till now, are not allowed to marry mixed couples abroad ( especially in Arab countries )

Edited November 1, 2013 by alyx

[alyx]

I should add that the sanctions cited above are not specific to, therefore not tailored for gay marriage.

Edited November 1, 2013 by alyx

[onthemoon]

Granted

There have been only three cases when the Mayor refused to have the marriage celebrated in their district,

arguing that they had the right of "conscience" refusing , in two cases, to delegate, the third one stating that no one was willing to do it: well, the stand off did not last long (punishable by law, the mayor can be revoked and/or face up to five years in jail assorted by a 75.000 fine) ........they eventually, and quickly, found volunteers willing to do it

Actually, although it is impossible to know how many marriages have been celebrated ( as it is not allowed to poll according to ethnicity, skin colour, religion and sexual orientation ) it is estimated that 600 marriages have taken place. 3 out of 600 ( and I don't think that we will get more of these cases ) amounts to a mere 0.5%

But sincerely these are isolated cases built to attract publicity rather than to show a position

The only real problem is that France is wary of celebrating mixed marriages, or between two foreigners, nationals of countries where homosexuality is a crime or some laws against, and with whom they have bilateral agreements ( Cambodia, Morocco ,,,,)

Furthermore, registrars, up till now, are not allowed to marry mixed couples abroad ( especially in Arab countries )

Oh, a "mixed marriage" is a marriage between a French person and a foreigner. And there was I thinking for a moment that it means a marriage between people of different genders, rather than different nationalities. Silly me.