Sony A7 and A7r

[Genericnic]

I use a D800 with lots of fast glass for my FF but I travel a lot and with the weight and carry-on restrictions for flying these days I wanted something smaller. After a lot of reading and some hands-on, it came down to either a Sony A7r or an Olympus OM-D E-M1. In the end, the E-M1 won out for a number of reasons.

First was lens availability without the need for an adapter. I got the kit that has the M.Zuiko Pro 12-40 f/2.8 as the kit lens. Was well worth the investment. In addition, you can get mFT lenses that range from 14 to 600mm all in native mFT format. And, of course, there are the 3 wonderful Voigtlander prime 0.95 mFT lenses that are available. For the A7r, the native lenses are, as Sony says, coming soon. Maybe in a year or two I'll go back and look at a Sony for a FF camera but I'm quite happy with the E-M1.

Second, obviously there is the size and weight issue. The E-M1 with the 12-40 weighs less than the Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 lens alone and only occupies about the same volume of space. As for weight difference and size it was a bit of a draw between the A7r and the E-M1.

Third, because of the travel involved and shooting in lots of different climate conditions, the E-M1 was a clear winner due to the weather sealing.

A last consideration, while not a deal breaker one that I really liked, was the fact that the E-M1's shutter is considerably quieter than the A7r. It is closer to the sound of a Leica. I would feel comfortable shooting at a funeral with it, unlike my D800.

As for image quality, the E-M1 is living up to its hype. You do know, don't you, that National Geo will accept images from 6MP up? I thin the E-M1's image quality would work for Nat Geo just fine.

So, that said, I will may (or may not) keep my D800 and Nikon glass for studio or non travel shooting but I think its days on the road may be passed.

David

Good choice sir! It's a fine camera and the 12-40mm sits on it very well. A very pleasing companion to that setup might be the 75mm F1.8, one of the best lenses I have ever owned from any system. Did a little review of it here: http://www.microfourthirds.info/2013/02/olympus-75mm-f1-8-review/

I was looking at the 75mm f/1.8 but right now, the Voigtlander 42.5mm f/0.95 is my most likely choice. I do a fair amount of glamour shooting and the DOF and bokeh seem to match up with the Nikon 85mm f/1.4 I use on the D800.

David

[FracturedRabbit]

I have the 25mm F0.95 Voigtlander, lovely lens and no doubt the 42.5 is as good. There is a 42.5 F1.2 Nocticron from Panasonic; but still no release date or price. http://photorumors.com/2013/11/07/the-upcoming-leica-dg-nocticron-425mm-f1-2-asph-mft-lens-is-huge/

[Genericnic]

I have the 25mm F0.95 Voigtlander, lovely lens and no doubt the 42.5 is as good. There is a 42.5 F1.2 Nocticron from Panasonic; but still no release date or price. http://photorumors.com/2013/11/07/the-upcoming-leica-dg-nocticron-425mm-f1-2-asph-mft-lens-is-huge/

With the Leica name stuck on it, my bet is that it will be more expensive than the Voigtlander.

David

[Tywais]

I have the 25mm F0.95 Voigtlander, lovely lens and no doubt the 42.5 is as good. There is a 42.5 F1.2 Nocticron from Panasonic; but still no release date or price. http://photorumors.com/2013/11/07/the-upcoming-leica-dg-nocticron-425mm-f1-2-asph-mft-lens-is-huge/

With the Leica name stuck on it, my bet is that it will be more expensive than the Voigtlander.

Some of the prices of these Leicas are mind boggling. Such as 318,000 Baht for 24mm f/3.5 ASPH! Leica lenses. Voigtlander for M43

BTW - might want to continue EM-1 discussions in the EM-1 topic. I just posted my new purchase of the EM-1 I got Friday. Olympus OM-D EM-1

[Dogmatix]

Good thinking. I am interested in the Sony A7 and A7R, particularly how they perform with various FF lenses, as per the OP, not in MFT bodies and lenses.

[MJP]

Good thinking. I am interested in the Sony A7 and A7R, particularly how they perform with various FF lenses, as per the OP, not in MFT bodies and lenses.

Look at this . . .

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1255248

[MJP]

Good thinking. I am interested in the Sony A7 and A7R, particularly how they perform with various FF lenses, as per the OP, not in MFT bodies and lenses.

Best also read this too . . .

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/2013-12-leica-sony-canon/index.htm

[Fiddlesticks]

Good thinking. I am interested in the Sony A7 and A7R, particularly how they perform with various FF lenses, as per the OP, not in MFT bodies and lenses.

Best also read this too . . .

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/2013-12-leica-sony-canon/index.htm

WOW! Ken is not too complimentary of the new Sonys! Guess I will stick with my Canon 5D Mk3

[MJP]

Good thinking. I am interested in the Sony A7 and A7R, particularly how they perform with various FF lenses, as per the OP, not in MFT bodies and lenses.

Best also read this too . . .

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/2013-12-leica-sony-canon/index.htm

WOW! Ken is not too complimentary of the new Sonys! Guess I will stick with my Canon 5D Mk3

5D3 seems to be the best choice out there right now if you want a highly capable do all camera with a big lens range.

That and the EM-1.

Not going to risk it with the Sony. I'm tired of chasing the camera dragon. Viva la Pentax!

[fimgirl]

Good thinking. I am interested in the Sony A7 and A7R, particularly how they perform with various FF lenses, as per the OP, not in MFT bodies and lenses.

Best also read this too . . .

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/2013-12-leica-sony-canon/index.htm

WOW! Ken is not too complimentary of the new Sonys! Guess I will stick with my Canon 5D Mk3

I wouldn't pay too much attention to Ken Rockwell or anybody who shoots jpegs for IQ comparison

[Fiddlesticks]

Good thinking. I am interested in the Sony A7 and A7R, particularly how they perform with various FF lenses, as per the OP, not in MFT bodies and lenses.

Best also read this too . . .

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/2013-12-leica-sony-canon/index.htm

WOW! Ken is not too complimentary of the new Sonys! Guess I will stick with my Canon 5D Mk3

I wouldn't pay too much attention to Ken Rockwell or anybody who shoots jpegs for IQ comparison

But . . . when I go to look at IQ comparisons on DPReview, they also use jpegs to illustrate their findings! I have used DPReview and trusted their findings for many years. Maybe they shot raw but they did minimal processing to produce jpegs for their IQ comparisons. All Rockwell did was do the JPEG processing in camera. Same same?

[fimgirl]

RAW v RAW eliminates in camera processing engine variations. Upload as jpeg sure but shoot RAW. This is indeed the negative.

Example: My OOC jpegs from my Canon MK2 are far superior to my Leica M240. But the Leica destroys the Canon on RAW comparison. Rockwell concludes the opposite. Go figure.

[MJP]

You know it'd be much cheaper just to view the photos you got using a high res screen. My cheapo Pentax photos sudden look like PhaseOne if I view on a high res tablet.

Samsung got a new laptop out, 3200 x 1800 on a 13 inch, ppi of 264, a fair bit more than the Retina. I reckon this is the IGZO display thing.

[Fiddlesticks]

RAW v RAW eliminates in camera processing engine variations. Upload as jpeg sure but shoot RAW. This is indeed the negative.

Example: My OOC jpegs from my Canon MK2 are far superior to my Leica M240. But the Leica destroys the Canon on RAW comparison. Rockwell concludes the opposite. Go figure.

However, DP Review does not claim that their tests were made as raw. They show their tests comparisons as jpeg. The mere fact that they were compressed imposes some issues. Regardless, the point of KR's review was to point out the problems with the Sony A7. I would assume the problems reside with the fact that the A7 user needs to use non-native lenses and some of the issues that result from this requirement.

[sunshine51]

^ fiddlesticks...

Nice point to bring up concerning DP Review usage of IQ jpegs. I've been using DPR for many years to gain

insight on various camera models however, I have just emailed then regarding the RAW or jpg conection

regarding IQ....ie...Do you shoot RAW then convert to jpg for the web or what? It will be interesting to read

their reply & I'll post it here when received. With the holidays upon us I'll be gobsmacked if I get that reply

before the year's out.

[FracturedRabbit]

DPReview's problem is that they review new cameras before RAW converters are available, so they have no choice but to use JPEGs.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[sunshine51]

Thanks for that FR. Bit iffy way to do IQ tests though in my books.

Edited December 21, 2013 by sunshine51

[Fiddlesticks]

DPReview's problem is that they review new cameras before RAW converters are available, so they have no choice but to use JPEGs. Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

good point!

[Dogmatix]

je

Good thinking. I am interested in the Sony A7 and A7R, particularly how they perform with various FF lenses, as per the OP, not in MFT bodies and lenses.

Best also read this too . . .

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/comparisons/2013-12-leica-sony-canon/index.htm

WOW! Ken is not too complimentary of the new Sonys! Guess I will stick with my Canon 5D Mk3

Hard to say how objective Rockwell is. He was previously a huge Leica fan, having switched his allegiance from Nikon, but seems to realise that pushing such an expensive niche brand doesn't make commercial sense for him. He is also a bit of a Luddite re new technology. Hated the Leca M8 and stuck to Leica film cameras until the M9 came out. He seems to hate Sony. He managed to show that the Sony NEX-5N did a worse job with a 50m Leica (I think it was a Summicron) attached, than with the kit zoom. Maybe he is right technically but I found the 50mm Summicron to work pretty well with the NEX-5N and it definety delivers better bokeh than the kit zoom. He seems to be an object of derision on dpreview. Anyway his lists of all the specs of Leica and other brands are pretty good, even if one doesn't appreciate his opinion.

[Dogmatix]

For me, since I already have a good collection of Leica, CV (M and LTM), Canon FD and Contax glass my choice in upgrading to a new FF system is really only between the Sony A7 or A7R or taking the plunge with a Leica M240. Cost, waiting time and lower specs, particularly high ISO performance and the outrageous plastic Panasonic EVF that costs extra make me restrain the urge to buy the M240. There is also the issue of the possible need to recalibrate the RF of the Leica with particular lens, e.g. the Noctilux, with that and other key repairs only available in Germany which means expensive shipping and insurance costs, a long wait and being hit with import duty and VAT on the insured value when it comes back toThailand (on the lens too, if you send your Noctilux for pairing with the body!).

That really only leaves the A7 or the A7R and accepting that WA RF lenses might not be optimal (or buying a Leica WATE which seems OK but is very expensive) or waiting for another FF model from Sony, Leica or someone else. I am not going to invest in and lug around a FF Canon or Nikon rig and, even though the new Olympus offering seems excellent, I am not looking to drop down to MFT without trying elecronic FF first. I might just take the plunge with a Sony even if they are not perfect.

I made some very imperfect tests with some of my own glass in a Sony showroom shooting only jpegs. Both were awful with the CV 15mm f4.5 . There was slightly more colour casting on the A7R but it seemed present on the A7 as well. Anyway the Leica M240 also has big problems with the CV 15mm and 12mm lenses as there is no Leica firmware profile for it. I noted similar results with the Leica 21mm SEM f3.4. Although it seems much more usable than the CV 15mm, problems of vignetting and colour casting appeared wide open with both the A7 and the A7R, although the colour casting seemed worse on the A7R. I also tried a Leica 28mm f2.8 modern version and a Leica 35mm f1.4 FLE and the corner problems seemed minimal even wide open on those two, particularly the 35mm FLE. I tried the Sony Zeiss FE 35mm f2.8 on the A7r only and it rendered razor sharp images, although the AF sometimes focused on something behind the subject. But when I got the files up in on the computer I noticed that the showroom staff had for some reason set it up for APS-C crop for the FE 35mm, so no chance to comment on the corners which Ron Scheffler’s tests seemed to show as weak on it, as well as strangely on the 55mm FE Optus f1.8 which by all other accounts is an excellent lens.

Not having the low pass filter in the A7R seems to make little difference, since both models are susceptible to moire, although the A7 is slightly less so. That suggests that the filter in the A7 is a very weak one. The double shutter noise of the A7R is slightly annoying but maybe not a deal breaker. The slower AF is not much of an issue for manual lenses and the AF and burst rate on the A7 are not fast enough to make it much good for sports anyway.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Dogmatix

[MJP]

For me, since I already have a good collection of Leica, CV (M and LTM), Canon FD and Contax glass my choice in upgrading to a new FF system is really only between the Sony A7 or A7R or taking the plunge with a Leica M240. Cost, waiting time and lower specs, particularly high ISO performance and the outrageous plastic Panasonic EVF that costs extra make me restrain the urge to buy the M240. There is also the issue of the possible need to recalibrate the RF of the Leica with particular lens, e.g. the Noctilux, with that and other key repairs only available in Germany which means expensive shipping and insurance costs, a long wait and being hit with import duty and VAT on the insured value when it comes back toThailand (on the lens too, if you send your Noctilux for pairing with the body!).

That really only leaves the A7 or the A7R and accepting that WA RF lenses might not be optimal (or buying a Leica WATE which seems OK but is very expensive) or waiting for another FF model from Sony, Leica or someone else. I am not going to invest in and lug around a FF Canon or Nikon rig and, even though the new Olympus offering seems excellent, I am not looking to drop down to MFT without trying elecronic FF first. I might just take the plunge with a Sony even if they are not perfect.

I made some very imperfect tests with some of my own glass in a Sony showroom shooting only jpegs. Both were awful with the CV 15mm f4.5 . There was slightly more colour casting on the A7R but it seemed present on the A7 as well. Anyway the Leica M240 also has big problems with the CV 15mm and 12mm lenses as there is no Leica firmware profile for it. I noted similar results with the Leica 21mm SEM f3.4. Although it seems much more usable than the CV 15mm, problems of vignetting and colour casting appeared wide open with both the A7 and the A7R, although the colour casting seemed worse on the A7R. I also tried a Leica 28mm f2.8 modern version and a Leica 35mm f1.4 FLE and the corner problems seemed minimal even wide open on those two, particularly the 35mm FLE. I tried the Sony Zeiss FE 35mm f2.8 on the A7r only and it rendered razor sharp images, although the AF sometimes focused on something behind the subject. But when I got the files up in on the computer I noticed that the showroom staff had for some reason set it up for APS-C crop for the FE 35mm, so no chance to comment on the corners which Ron Scheffler’s tests seemed to show as weak on it, as well as strangely on the 55mm FE Optus f1.8 which by all other accounts is an excellent lens.

Not having the low pass filter in the A7R seems to make little difference, since both models are susceptible to moire, although the A7 is slightly less so. That suggests that the filter in the A7 is a very weak one. The double shutter noise of the A7R is slightly annoying but maybe not a deal breaker. The slower AF is not much of an issue for manual lenses and the AF and burst rate on the A7 are not fast enough to make it much good for sports anyway.

I think problems may also come down to which adapter you use. Have a look at Novoflex, here's their adapter finder . . . .

http://www.novoflex.com/en/products/adapters/adapter-finder/

[Dogmatix]

A lot of people recommend Novoflex adapters but I wonder if that is a factor of more successful marketing in N America than others or, if there is any scientific backing for that. I seem to remember seeing some tests that indicated a lot of variation between different copies of the same brand adapters and Novoflex didn't always come out better than the $15 ones. (Sorry I can't remember where that was). I use a Voigtlander adapter for M to E mount. which seems to have good build quality. Bought it just because it was in stock at AV Camera, CV's Thai agent, at a reasonable price, to save trouble of ordering from overseas and waiting. I would be open to Novoflex or others, if there is any clear evidence they are significantly and consistently more accurate.

Also wonder about the helicoid M to E mount adapters for closer focusing of RF lenses. Hawks and Voigtlander both make them but Voigtlander's is more expensive and heavier, although available at AV Camera for less than overseas. I guess there is even more chance for these to be inaccurate than a fixed adapter.

[Dogmatix]

Leica seems to be planning a mirrorless rangefinderless interchangeable AF lens APS-C wifi camera for Spring 2014, the T701. I guess it will only be a matter of time before they bite the bullet and offer the same thing in FF M mount to howls of dismay from RF purists. The M240 is not a technological success and leaves them straddling the two fences of RF mirrorless and EVF mirrorless. The 1930s RF mechanism with its limitations and notorious calibration and viewfinder blockage problems adds a lot of bulk and weight. Knowing them it will be a couple of years out of date by the time it is launched and have a one year waiting list. The M240, despite its cost has no tilting screen and exposure data doesn't show up in the low spec plastic Panasonic EVF.

[MJP]

Leica seems to be planning a mirrorless rangefinderless interchangeable AF lens APS-C wifi camera for Spring 2014, the T701. I guess it will only be a matter of time before they bite the bullet and offer the same thing in FF M mount to howls of dismay from RF purists. The M240 is not a technological success and leaves them straddling the two fences of RF mirrorless and EVF mirrorless. The 1930s RF mechanism with its limitations and notorious calibration and viewfinder blockage problems adds a lot of bulk and weight. Knowing them it will be a couple of years out of date by the time it is launched and have a one year waiting list. The M240, despite its cost has no tilting screen and exposure data doesn't show up in the low spec plastic Panasonic EVF.

Leica is silly money. You can just as well with stuff a quarter of the price. Although some of the lenses are masterpieces.

[Dogmatix]

I bit the bullet and bought an A7R. Figured that probably nothing significantly better for my purposes will come out for another 2 years. So far I am very happy with the camera and my wife is jealous of my "selfie" Xmas present. I haven't bought the 35mm Sony FE lens which is the only native lens available for the A7R at the moment, as I won't to play around with my manual lenses before considering any lenses that will be redundant, if I move on from Sony later on. It is, as expected, a camera that you need to take a bit of time nailing manual focus with due to the high resolution. the magnification feature works better than the NEX-5N, as you can pinpoint the part of the screen you want to magnify first. Significant vignetting is visible on Leica RF lenses up to 28mm and is also visible on Leica 35mm and 50mm lenses. It is easy to clean this up from 35mm and 50mm lens images even on PSE using the filter>lens correction>vignetting function. The Voightlander LTM 15mm f4.5 has so much vignetting and colour cast that it is virtually unusable but that was expected. There is also some colour cast on the Leica 21mm f3.4 and Leica 2mm f2.8 but I haven't tried PP on the wider lens images yet. It may be necessary to shoot them in raw and clean up with Cornerfix or Lightroom. None of this is unexpected. Leica corrects its own 6-bit coded lenses in camera and creates similar corner problems if that is switched off. There is no fix for the CV 12 and 15mm which are also virtually unusable on Leica M9 and M240s, in colour anyway. Even on my Leica M3 film camera the vignetting is huge on the CV 15mm but no colour cast. The NEX-7 also produces colour cast with them, despite its APS-C crop. Maybe Sony will come out with a decent FE wide angle lens and there is always the Leica 16-18-21mm Tri-Elmar WATE f4 which apparently works fine with the A7 and A7R because its rear elements sits further from the sensoe. My Sony E mount Sigma 30mm f2.8, a $199 gem, works well in crop format. In FF format the edges are rounded by the top and bottom are flat. Huge distortion is visible on the parts of the image that are cropped in APS-C format. No vignetting is visible with 90mm and 135mm lenses I have tried.

All in all very satisfied with the purchase. I love using a 50mm lens and on it and getting a narrower DOF for the same FOV as I was getting with a 35mm lens using a APS-C sensor. If you want to use Sony FE lenses with autofocus the A7 probably makes more sense and gives you a slightly quieter shutter too. (You cannot surreptiously take a frame on the BTS with the A7R but probably not with the A7 either.) Buying at the Sony shop I got a free bluetooth headset worth B1500 and could have had a B1000 voucher at Zen Jap restaurant. The protective film was also free with My Sony points.

[MJP]

Stop talking and start shooting!

Be a Gent and post some pics from the thing up here would you? State which lens and a few basic settings like ISO, EV and F-stop.

Man thanks!

Edited December 31, 2013 by astral
Removal of long quote

[Dogmatix]

A7R with Leica 50mm f0.95 @ 0.95 1/160 ISO 600 no EV correction. Minimal PP but cropped off clutter of table on right - model refused to sit in the correct spot. No vignette correction but there are natural shadows.

No sizzling landscapes for the which the A7R is most suited yet. Could only upload a tiny file.

Edited December 29, 2013 by Dogmatix

[MJP]

FB 200 1475959_567031886714449_2142439284_n.jpg

DOF!

Which lens, aperture and ISO?

[Dogmatix]

Y

FB 200 1475959_567031886714449_2142439284_n.jpg

DOF!

Which lens, aperture and ISO?

You are fast. I added in the data with an edit after checking the small file (45kb)uploaded. I don't claim any artistic merits or photographic skill - just have fun and like gear.

[MJP]

It is good. If that's your first go with the thing imagine what you'll be turning out in a months time.

Edited December 31, 2013 by astral
Removal of long quote