Nakorn Ping Hospital puts hold on Health Insurance for non-migrant worker foreigners

[amexpat]

So, Dolly, are you saying you prefer the system where a very few people can get what they want when they want it while millions of their countrymen get nothing at all?

Thailand, USA, UK, Canada, etc. have different economies so you can't expect single-payer to work the same in all of them.

[Saan]

What country can you get darn near free high quality universal healthcare in. None

Your knowledge on world matters, read everything, is amazing.

In Australia there is free high quality health care.

[OneZero]

For Thailand to provide the system it does for it's own citizens (or for ASEAN member country citizens who provide reciprocal benefits to Thai citizens) is fine. That is a decision made by Thai leaders on how to use their scarce medical resources to better their own citizens health, especially those citizens in the lower rungs of Thai society who are unable to pay more than 30 THB. Now we see foreigners posting on TV seemingly competing with themselves for bragging rights on who achieved the most for only 30 THB.

The system was not designed, or funded at a level necessary, for the benefit of anybody from any country in the world who has come to Thailand without thinking ahead and putting their own health security system in place before moving here. Why should anyone who is not a citizen of Thailand (or ASEAN) EXPECT the Thai government to provide, solely in the name of compassion, what that person has not felt necessary to provide for themselves ahead of time. Such expectations are unrealistic. But anybody, such as Mapguy, who tries to point this out is shot down in the name of compassion.

[mimithewoof]

Compassion seems in short supply, both on this forum and in the CM expat community, with a few very notable exceptions. The lack of it is one Western 'value' which should have been left on the plane!

[Saan]

Compassion seems in short supply, both on this forum and in the CM expat community, with a few very notable exceptions. The lack of it is one Western 'value' which should have been left on the plane!

I think you are wrong. In the community there is a lot of compassion amongst expats. There are many cases where people have fallen and have been picked up, dusted off and helped on their way. It is just that they are not publicised. The stories are kept among the friends who do the helping. I have had calls this morning about two expats who are in a bad way and ways of sorting out the problems were discussed.

Maybe if you looked a little closer on this forum you will realize there are many good people here willing to help anther human being. Just don't listen to the curmudgeons.

[Frank James]

I don't count Michael Moore as one of my heroes. His ambush style of journalism is not to my taste. I'm more of a John Pilger / Greg Palast fan.

Single payer, high quality, low cost health care is what we should have always had in America, but will never get, until the wheels burn off the out of control runaway train of end-stage capitalism. May its death come soon, but that's probably a forlorn hope.

And it's strange how so many people like to slag the Canadian health care system. I lived there for a while, and have many Canadian friends, and none of them have a bad word to say about their system until lately, when Cameron's Mini-me Harper and his crew are trying to take Canada down the neo-con highway of doom.

But we are in Thailand, and the subject is local health care available to "expats" (hate that word). What always creeps into these "discussions" is a subtle form of class warfare, where the "I've Got Mine, Too Bad You're Such a Loser" delegation takes cheap shots at those less well off. Thank you for letting us have our grubby little lives here in such peace and contentment as we may find. We won't compete with you for tee times at the golf course, or a table at your hi-so watering hole.

[mimithewoof]

Saan -

Ive been 'looking closely' on this forum just about every day for nine years now, from two years before I came here. Also, for two full years a while ago I was heavily involved through my job in all aspects of the community - and there was a lot more compassion and genuine, supportive friendship shown on and offline than there is now.

Having said that, Nancy's brainchild, Lanna Care Net, and all who became involved, provided a welcome ray of sunshine visible to all, even those of us in our 'grubby little lives'(Thanks, Frank - great phrase! Agree absolutely with your final paragraph)

[Saan]

But we are in Thailand, and the subject is local health care available to "expats" (hate that word). What always creeps into these "discussions" is a subtle form of class warfare, where the "I've Got Mine, Too Bad You're Such a Loser" delegation takes cheap shots at those less well off. Thank you for letting us have our grubby little lives here in such peace and contentment as we may find. We won't compete with you for tee times at the golf course, or a table at your hi-so watering hole.

I didn't just 'like this' paragraph I blood well loved it. It contains a couple of fine turns of phrase.

[hellodolly]

So, Dolly, are you saying you prefer the system where a very few people can get what they want when they want it while millions of their countrymen get nothing at all?

Thailand, USA, UK, Canada, etc. have different economies so you can't expect single-payer to work the same in all of them.

No I am saying the grass just looks greener on the other side of the fence. I have spent 30 years in each and recently paid over $6,000 out of my pocket for an operation here I could have got for free in Canada and about $50,000 in the states.

[hellodolly]

What country can you get darn near free high quality universal healthcare in. None

Your knowledge on world matters, read everything, is amazing.

In Australia there is free high quality health care.

High quality health care is not get on a list and wait.

[hellodolly]

For Thailand to provide the system it does for it's own citizens (or for ASEAN member country citizens who provide reciprocal benefits to Thai citizens) is fine. That is a decision made by Thai leaders on how to use their scarce medical resources to better their own citizens health, especially those citizens in the lower rungs of Thai society who are unable to pay more than 30 THB. Now we see foreigners posting on TV seemingly competing with themselves for bragging rights on who achieved the most for only 30 THB.

The system was not designed, or funded at a level necessary, for the benefit of anybody from any country in the world who has come to Thailand without thinking ahead and putting their own health security system in place before moving here. Why should anyone who is not a citizen of Thailand (or ASEAN) EXPECT the Thai government to provide, solely in the name of compassion, what that person has not felt necessary to provide for themselves ahead of time. Such expectations are unrealistic. But anybody, such as Mapguy, who tries to point this out is shot down in the name of compassion.

I agree and disagree with you. I don't believe it is compassion and should not be. I believe it is an attempt to recoup some of the money they are losing to foreigners with out insurance or money to pay for their medical care. They have not yet said if it is going to be permanently discontinued or resumed at a later date.

At the moment they have some thing else on their mind. But they will make a decision in the future after they have had a little time to see how it is going now..

Yes these people have probably spent a lot of money here in Thailand but most of them spent far more in the countries they come from. Their home country owes them more than Thailand does.

[hellodolly]

I don't count Michael Moore as one of my heroes. His ambush style of journalism is not to my taste. I'm more of a John Pilger / Greg Palast fan.

Single payer, high quality, low cost health care is what we should have always had in America, but will never get, until the wheels burn off the out of control runaway train of end-stage capitalism. May its death come soon, but that's probably a forlorn hope.

And it's strange how so many people like to slag the Canadian health care system. I lived there for a while, and have many Canadian friends, and none of them have a bad word to say about their system until lately, when Cameron's Mini-me Harper and his crew are trying to take Canada down the neo-con highway of doom.

But we are in Thailand, and the subject is local health care available to "expats" (hate that word). What always creeps into these "discussions" is a subtle form of class warfare, where the "I've Got Mine, Too Bad You're Such a Loser" delegation takes cheap shots at those less well off. Thank you for letting us have our grubby little lives here in such peace and contentment as we may find. We won't compete with you for tee times at the golf course, or a table at your hi-so watering hole.

Wow you lived there a little while. I lived there from 1971 until 2006. I related some of my experiences there are many more I could relate about friends. What you don't understand is the average Canadian takes the wait to be normal just like the average Thai takes corruption to be normal.

I am dammed if I know what Steven Harper had to do with it in 1980 or any other year. Or for that matter today. Is he still the Prime Minister. I have an ex and three grown up kid's living there and I don't hear them complaining. The medical is sponsored by each province not the federal government. To me it sounds like you and your friends are living in a society full of conspiracies. I just related what I have first hand experienced. Here is another one for you. I was in a little town with a small hospital it had a staff of one Registered Nurse.

I am not slagging it I am just telling you how it is, No conspiracies involved. Many of my friends have never said any thing bad about it either. Mostly because they weren't asked. Now you have a hard time to get a doctor for just general purposes. If you are lucky they will interview you to see if you are suitable for them to take on as a patient. Yes all bets are off if you have to go to the emergency room. Same as in the high priced American side of the border or here in Thailand.

I said watching to much Michael Moore not taking him as a hero.

[NancyL]

Just for the record, Lanna Care Net is not my "brainchild". It was started over two years ago by a small group of people called together by the Hon British Consul and the Consul for Am. Citizen Services. They saw the need in the community and also the underutilized talents of people who could help those in need. LCN is a "virtual network", lead by a steering team. People who assist are considered members and there are some who devote large amounts of time and others who help infrequently and in very specific ways. We're neighbors helping neighbors. We don't do work that a Thai person can be paid to do, like hands-on patient care.

I'm a member of the steering team and the person who handles the emails and incoming phone calls -- but I'm definitely not the "leader" of the group. At this time, Ben Svasti is our chairman and he's working hard to try to understand the future of this Thai insurance program for resident foreigners.

[Sheryl]

There is no "free" health care anywhere in the world. It costs a considerable amount of money to provide modern health care and that has to be, and is , always paid.

What varies in the mechanism of payment.

In places with systems based on insurance, payment is made in the form of annual premiums. In that instance people are well aware of what they spend annually for their health care.

In places with national health systems, payment is through taxes, and tax rates reflect this. A surprising number of people in said countries seem unaware of this or to underestimate just how much is spent, out of tax revenue, per capita to fund their health system.

Nowhere is it "free" and there is no way it ever could be. Doctors, nurses, technicians et al. need salaries. Drugs and equipment have to be paid for. Buildings have to be built, maintained, repaired. Research has to be conducted to develop new treatments. and so on. It is a very costly service and getting more so all the time as the technology improves,

[Mapguy]

Thank you, Sheryl. Very sensible. Doesn't solve the concerns of the readers of this thread, but it is bang on.

I wish that this thread weren't so narrowly-focused, but that is the nature of forums like this one.

The changes which are going on in Thai public health policy are complex. The problem on threads like this one is that people lose their perspective. For one, older foreigners are of relatively minor concern compared with other needy people in this country.

Depending upon ThaiVisa, which is a forum in which anyone may participate, can new both helpful and very frustrating.

[Frank James]

Sheryl, you are right of course, there is no free anything. If the US had adopted a single payer national health program, there would of course be very noticeable tax consequences. After Obamacare proves to be a fraud and a failure, maybe...

(Voice heard offstage:) "Luke, shotgun! Some sosh-a-list just got in here!"

As for any sort of scheme being implemented by the Thai government for the benefit of basic health care for foreigners, I can't see that ever coming to pass. What we saw for a month or so was an accidental loophole, which has now been plastered over and painted. We'll all be all right, one way or another.

[bundoi]

@mimi "Guess this'll have to be my final excursion into the online world of Chiang Mai expats, where which pub is best and where to find the cheapest cheese is paramount. Outside this rarefied atmosphere, the world keeps turning."

dear Mimi your abiity to express more than an an A or B solution to a complex problem has heartened me greatly, especially as after 9 years you must surely know that many here can't even get to A ;-)

[muchogra]

Thanks for the heads -up, NancyL. I think the program was originally set up for big businesses who employ many migrant workers, to whatever reasons! Now that many foreigners have enrolled; perhaps, they just realized they had screwed up somewhere along the line!

Anyone who thinks it's done for the foreigners are in fantasy land!

When I made the above post I really didn't think about if the program was made to benefit the big businesses. Mimi got me thinking though, and for good reason, I must say.

Perhaps, my original sentence (highlighed) should have read: I think the program was set up for the migrant workers who are employed by big businesses in large quantity for whatever reasons.

Well, information provided, herein, seems to substantiate it indeed had the migrant workers in mind when the program was set up!

This also reminds me that we had to pay something around B3,800 bahts for each of the Burmese maids that we employed over the years in Bangkok. I think it's B1,900 for the check-up and B1,900 for the insurance(?). That program was on and off over the years though.

Off topic here: Hey, I'm very glad today. Our old Thai maid called me to wish me a happy father day! She does that every year for over 3 years now!

[Saan]

I was assured yesterday by several expats that the medical scheme was only put on hold because the head office in Bangkok was not able to function due to the protests. I have no idea as to the veracity of this proposition but can only hope it is true.

Has anyone any solid evidence to support this theory?

[onthedarkside]

Inappropriate post removed.

[elektrified]

I was assured yesterday by several expats that the medical scheme was only put on hold because the head office in Bangkok was not able to function due to the protests. I have no idea as to the veracity of this proposition but can only hope it is true.

Has anyone any solid evidence to support this theory?

I wouldn't listen to "several expats". If NancyL and Sheryl can't confirm this then it's not credible as they are the most informed of anyone.

[Saan]

I was assured yesterday by several expats that the medical scheme was only put on hold because the head office in Bangkok was not able to function due to the protests. I have no idea as to the veracity of this proposition but can only hope it is true.

Has anyone any solid evidence to support this theory?

I wouldn't listen to "several expats". If NancyL and Sheryl can't confirm this then it's not credible as they are the most informed of anyone.

I asked if anyone had any solid information not useless speculation.

[purushanti]

A positive report (from another Mimi-Sheryl-Nancy, et al, fan):

For those concerned with being caught in the middle, having registered, and not yet picked up the 2nd card, no problem. Simply presented original card and copy of bill at Nakorn Ping Hospital, and received new card, exactly one week later. I have learned from life not to ask questions if it means opening up the possibilty of a "no" answer.

Inquired about just what was tested, and got this far:

The tests were for syphilis, gonorrhea, parasites...., and not for HIV, nor hepatitis....and that is all I was able to discern.

Perhaps there is more(?) that could be figured accurately from the 4 result sheets I received in answer to my question.

Hats of to the Nakorn Ping staff for all the metta and karuna so evident in their work, which energy I had opportunity to receive and pass on with some bed-patients in the hall, who absolutely lit up when I waied them.

[sceadugenga]

I qualified for the health care system at a local Chiang Rai hospital today.

[elektrified]

A positive report (from another Mimi-Sheryl-Nancy, et al, fan):

For those concerned with being caught in the middle, having registered, and not yet picked up the 2nd card, no problem. Simply presented original card and copy of bill at Nakorn Ping Hospital, and received new card, exactly one week later. I have learned from life not to ask questions if it means opening up the possibilty of a "no" answer.

Inquired about just what was tested, and got this far:

The tests were for syphilis, gonorrhea, parasites...., and not for HIV, nor hepatitis....and that is all I was able to discern.

Perhaps there is more(?) that could be figured accurately from the 4 result sheets I received in answer to my question.

Hats of to the Nakorn Ping staff for all the metta and karuna so evident in their work, which energy I had opportunity to receive and pass on with some bed-patients in the hall, who absolutely lit up when I waied them.

Gonorrhea? Are you sure about that? Gonorrhea is almost always tested for by swabing the affected area. For men that means sticking a cotton bud inside the penis! When I was a teenager and in my early 20's that was one thing I absolutely hated to have done when I had "the clap"! Give me a needle in my arm any day over that! A quick web search seems to confirm my thoughts. They were no doubt checking for HIV.

[Sheryl]

They do not check for GC, only syphilis.

[Sheryl]

I was assured yesterday by several expats that the medical scheme was only put on hold because the head office in Bangkok was not able to function due to the protests. I have no idea as to the veracity of this proposition but can only hope it is true.

Has anyone any solid evidence to support this theory?

Not correct.

Unrest in Bkk has no effect (except on hospitals in Bkk, which aren't issuing the cards anyhow).

Officials at the MoPH were surprised to learn that resident expats were being registered and informed CM officials this was not the intent of the decree. (Though the wording of the decree certainly gave room for thinking otherwise).

[bundoi]

I am sure a solution will come, the question is how soon. Hopefully the experience thus far has demonstrated that the insurance scheme in place for migrants is a viable approach that just needs some tweaking and a rationalized pricing to work for expats.

Well there are numerous solutions already in place via the Thai insurance companies.

One big difference between migrant workers and most CM expats is their age, and naturally this affects cost and price.

For UK and other European retirees a very simple solution to their healthcare funding is to retire somewhere in Europe where their home-country health contributions will get them 'free' health care in their chosen retirement country, and living can be as cheap or cheaper than as Thailand, which after all is why most of them are here.

Not sure if that would help Nth American retirees though.

Was someone complaining about an 80 baht dressing in hospital here? Would that buy a quarter of a soggy bun in a UK hospital?

[purushanti]

A positive report (from another Mimi-Sheryl-Nancy, et al, fan):

For those concerned with being caught in the middle, having registered, and not yet picked up the 2nd card, no problem. Simply presented original card and copy of bill at Nakorn Ping Hospital, and received new card, exactly one week later. I have learned from life not to ask questions if it means opening up the possibilty of a "no" answer.

Inquired about just what was tested, and got this far:

The tests were for syphilis, gonorrhea, parasites...., and not for HIV, nor hepatitis....and that is all I was able to discern.

Perhaps there is more(?) that could be figured accurately from the 4 result sheets I received in answer to my question.

Hats of to the Nakorn Ping staff for all the metta and karuna so evident in their work, which energy I had opportunity to receive and pass on with some bed-patients in the hall, who absolutely lit up when I waied them.

Gonorrhea? Are you sure about that? Gonorrhea is almost always tested for by swabing the affected area. For men that means sticking a cotton bud inside the penis! When I was a teenager and in my early 20's that was one thing I absolutely hated to have done when I had "the clap"! Give me a needle in my arm any day over that! A quick web search seems to confirm my thoughts. They were no doubt checking for HIV.

No, not sure about that. Not sure about anything just because I hear or read it. I inquired at the hospital, and that was what I was told. I bow to your reply and to Sheryl's.

[mimithewoof]

Bundol -

If I'd wanted to emigrate from the UK to Europe, I would have done so, as I have enough Greek, French or Italian the to get by in the type of rural setting I prefer after running a demanding business in London for around 25 years. Didn't actually come here to retire, but because Thailand was a darn sight closer to Japan both in travel time and time zones. Semi-permanent jet-lag can get very boring!

Unfortunately, the coup three months after I arrived put paid to my business plans via a tweak in the rules, after I'd all but set up through an American lawyer recommended to me by a client who'd been in the diplomatic service in BKK.

Since I was here, and had always wanted to live in Asia, I decided to give it a go. Mixed results, but I'm still here, and still fascinated by the changes in expat demographics over the years.

Perhaps you should catch up with recent events concerning the reciprocal health care of UK expats living in, for example, Spain - the British government is taking the Spanish to the European Court for refusing to treat tourists as well as expats in their municipal hospitals, even although a reciprocal agreement is in place. It's happening sporadically in other expat havens in the EU as well, and causing many expats grief and insecurity. The majority of Brit expats in Spain, I suspect, would be as thrilled as most were here if a similar hospital scheme was announced.

As to life being as cheap in Europe as in most Southeast Asian countries, please do try to get a life. You might like to check out an interesting new expat website, http://www.movehub.com/. It gives comprehensive details about the cost of living in 200 cities worldwide, including Chiang Mai, Athens, Paris etc. See for yourself.

Personally, I don't have a problem with my own countrymen coming here to eke out their miserly UK pensions and get a better life, but I do have a problem with others sniping at them on this or any other forum.

Let's hope that something can be worked out to include expats living here in some kind of health insurance plan involving local government hospitals - I'm not the only one who's noted the rising prices at Ram etc and wondered about their justification. My husband believes he would not have received any better treatment at a private hospital here than he had at Nakornping.