Thai Police Water Cannon 'Not Chemical Weapon'

[webfact]

Police Water Cannon 'Not Chemical Weapon'
By Khaosod Online



BANGKOK: -- A public health official has dismissed reports that water cannon used by the police in clashes with the anti-government protesters contained hazardous chemicals.

Throughout much of the clashes over the weekend near Government House the police employed water cannon and tear gas in fighting off waves of protesters, but anti-government media have questioned the use of the high-pressure purple-coloured water by the police.

A number of protesters also reported receiving skin injuries from the water, leading to speculation that the water might contain tear gas or other "chemical weapons".

But Ms. Chantana Padungtos, MD, an official from Department of Disease Control which operates under Ministry of Public Health, said the water has been mixed with a colourful and hard-to-clean chemical in order to identify the aggressive protesters and arrest them later, if the police chose to do so.

She identified chemicals in the water as Potassium permanganate, which many Thais uses as the chemical to wash their market fresh fruits, and Sodium thiosulphate, which Ms. Chantana said was mixed in the water for a better propelling effect.

Nevertheless, Ms. Chantana said, the two chemicals can cause a mild level of sulfur dioxide that can result in skin irritation. "The purple water is not chemical weapon," she stressed, "Its acid density is only slightly higher than vinegar".

She added, "And no tear gas was mixed into the water because tear gas cannot be used in water"

The official described the measure as one of universal crowd control methods, along with pepper spray, tear gas, and rubber bullets.

Source: http://www.khaosod.co.th/en/view_newsonline.php?newsid=TVRNNE5qQTJNVEUwTWc9PQ==

-- KHAOSOD English 2013-12-03

[tomross46]

Just because the Dr. Chantana, said it was not a chemical weapon does not make it so. Were does it say she was trained in the military and part of the Chemical Corp., which are the ones that develope chemical weapons. What would the world press do if they thought the Thai government used chemical weapons against innocent civilians?

[jackrich]

A water cannon is now a chemical weapon.

Okay.

Alright.

Sure.

Of Course.

Are you shi**ing me? And a beer is what? A weapon of mass destruction?

I bet if Suthep sees a pair of boobs, he will scream "land mines!".

[Swiss1960]

You go out, protest against the police, try to storm security barriers, throw stones and fireworks... and you agree to be hit with water cannons and tear gas. That is the name of the game in any such violent protests worldwide.

You get what you ask for, simple as that. Thailand, Europe (including Switzerland), US of A... police all do exactly the same thing, so don't whine when you are hit with something unpleasant when attacking the police.

[LuckyLew]

You go out, protest against the police, try to storm security barriers, throw stones and fireworks... and you agree to be hit with water cannons and tear gas. That is the name of the game in any such violent protests worldwide.

You get what you ask for, simple as that. Thailand, Europe (including Switzerland), US of A... police all do exactly the same thing, so don't whine when you are hit with something unpleasant when attacking the police.

They are admitting to putting chemicals in the water cannons so that in effect makes is more than just a water cannot.

"But Ms. Chantana Padungtos, MD, an official from Department of Disease Control which operates under Ministry of Public Health, said the water has been mixed with a colourful and hard-to-clean chemical in order to identify the aggressive protesters and arrest them later, if the police chose to do so.

[bigbamboo]

Just as well it wasn't made by Chang.

That could have been really unpleasant.

[Emptyset]

Just because the Dr. Chantana, said it was not a chemical weapon does not make it so. Were does it say she was trained in the military and part of the Chemical Corp., which are the ones that develope chemical weapons. What would the world press do if they thought the Thai government used chemical weapons against innocent civilians?

Human Rights Watch:

Sunai ‏@sunaibkk 2 Dec

@WilwithoneL Dyed water is not acid or poison as claimed by Blue Sky Channel and ASTV

[noitom]

Earlier Thai press with chemicals" was being used. That is the use of chemicals on a civil population. Falls into the category of Bashar Assad using chemical weapons. The Thais should be investigated by Human Rights Watch and the UN Chemical engineering staff.

[noitom]

You go out, protest against the police, try to storm security barriers, throw stones and fireworks... and you agree to be hit with water cannons and tear gas. That is the name of the game in any such violent protests worldwide.

You get what you ask for, simple as that. Thailand, Europe (including Switzerland), US of A... police all do exactly the same thing, so don't whine when you are hit with something unpleasant when attacking the police.

They are admitting to putting chemicals in the water cannons so that in effect makes is more than just a water cannot.

"But Ms. Chantana Padungtos, MD, an official from Department of Disease Control which operates under Ministry of Public Health, said the water has been mixed with a colourful and hard-to-clean chemical in order to identify the aggressive protesters and arrest them later, if the police chose to do so.

The chemicals put in the water are designed to have an effect on humans - It is supposed to cause them to have something happen. We need more information but it should be investigated by Human Rights Watch and the UN Chemical Weapons engineers. The US should be going crazy and should speak out against this use of chemical weapons against humans.

[meechai]

They should put some soap in those cannons.

That mob must be getting pretty stinky after

camping on the streets of Bangkok for so long.

[seajae]

if you read her statement it says that the 2 combined chemicals can cause skin irritations etc and is stronger than vinegar. When was the last time you had vinegar sprayed in your eyes under high pressure and had it eat the skin away which it does as an acid just as this combination was too. The wank_ers that are commenting and only joined in the last 2 days are full of shit, they are red appologists and just talk crap. This statement contradicts itsef, it was either pure "dyed" water or a chemical combination and she states it was both, go figure but then what more can you expect from a paid ptp supporter.

[surangw]

depends on where they get the water, doesn't it?

[HuaHinHarold]

She identified chemicals in the water as Potassium permanganate...and Sodium thiosulphate

.

Potassium permanganate

Potential Acute Health Effects:

Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation.

Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (permeator).

Possibly corrosive to eyes and skin.

Eye contact can result in corneal damage or blindness.

Skin contact can produce inflammation and blistering.

Inhalation of dust will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by burning, sneezing and coughing.

Severe over-exposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death.

Prolonged exposure may result in skin burns and ulcerations.

Over-exposure by inhalation may cause respiratory irritation.

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927406

Sodium thiosulphate

Potential Health Effects:

Eye: May cause eye irritation.

Skin: May cause skin irritation. May be harmful if absorbed through the skin.

Ingestion: May cause irritation of the digestive tract. May be harmful if swallowed.

Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation. May be harmful if inhaled.

http://www.ch.ntu.edu.tw/~genchem99/msds/exp19/Na2S2O3.pdf#page=1&zoom=auto,0,410

.

Edited December 3, 2013 by HuaHinHarold

[DocN]

She identified chemicals in the water as Potassium permanganate...and Sodium thiosulphate

.

Potassium permanganate

Potential Acute Health Effects:

Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation.

Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (permeator).

Possibly corrosive to eyes and skin.

Eye contact can result in corneal damage or blindness.

Skin contact can produce inflammation and blistering.

Inhalation of dust will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by burning, sneezing and coughing.

Severe over-exposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death.

Prolonged exposure may result in skin burns and ulcerations.

Over-exposure by inhalation may cause respiratory irritation.

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927406

Sodium thiosulphate

Potential Health Effects:

Eye: May cause eye irritation.

Skin: May cause skin irritation. May be harmful if absorbed through the skin.

Ingestion: May cause irritation of the digestive tract. May be harmful if swallowed.

Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation. May be harmful if inhaled.

http://www.ch.ntu.edu.tw/~genchem99/msds/exp19/Na2S2O3.pdf#page=1&zoom=auto,0,410

.

I guess, that would depend on how much of it is mixed in how much water.

I guess, the effects described above, would occur if you spray the stuff directly and undiluted into someones eyes.

[lemoncake]

Ever tried drinking tap water in Thailand ? It is like a nuke, guarantee to land you in the hospital , no need to add anything else .

I seriously doubt police filled water canons with drinking or filtered water

[lemoncake]

depends on where they get the water, doesn't it?

Pretty certain NOT from the nearest 7-11

[HuaHinHarold]

She identified chemicals in the water as Potassium permanganate...and Sodium thiosulphate

.

Potassium permanganate

Potential Acute Health Effects:

Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation.

Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (permeator).

Possibly corrosive to eyes and skin.

Eye contact can result in corneal damage or blindness.

Skin contact can produce inflammation and blistering.

Inhalation of dust will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by burning, sneezing and coughing.

Severe over-exposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death.

Prolonged exposure may result in skin burns and ulcerations.

Over-exposure by inhalation may cause respiratory irritation.

http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927406

Sodium thiosulphate

Potential Health Effects:

Eye: May cause eye irritation.

Skin: May cause skin irritation. May be harmful if absorbed through the skin.

Ingestion: May cause irritation of the digestive tract. May be harmful if swallowed.

Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation. May be harmful if inhaled.

http://www.ch.ntu.edu.tw/~genchem99/msds/exp19/Na2S2O3.pdf#page=1&zoom=auto,0,410

.

I guess, that would depend on how much of it is mixed in how much water.

I guess, the effects described above, would occur if you spray the stuff directly and undiluted into someones eyes.

Why guess?

The material safety data sheets above don't guess.

Additionally, the health effects go beyond eye hazards

Obviously they are not some completely harmless elements that the government is trying so hard to minimize.

There's no need to assist them in their obfuscation.

[Emptyset]

The chemicals put in the water are designed to have an effect on humans - It is supposed to cause them to have something happen. We need more information but it should be investigated by Human Rights Watch and the UN Chemical Weapons engineers. The US should be going crazy and should speak out against this use of chemical weapons against humans.

I posted a tweet from Sunai from Human Rights Watch earlier in the thread. This is standard practice and nothing to be concerned about. Here's a Wired article about the practice.

"The British first experimented with adding dye to water cannon in Belfast in the 1970's, but did not pursue the idea. However, many other countries have taken to using water cannon loaded with indelible dye as a means of marking protesters for future arrest, as well as making them look ridiculous.

A whole rainbow of colours has been used. In Uganda earlier this year pink dye was employed to humiliate protesters. In Israel, Palestinian rioters may expect a spray of deep blue, the colour of the Israeli flag. The Hungarian police use green, the Koreans orange."

[evadgib]

- I suspect the purple may contain UV or similar which may prove useful later.

- Anyone that has ever been within close proximity of tear gas will know that the last thing you should do is get wet!.

[englishoak]

Was the water filtered ? that is the real question...?

[lemoncake]

Was the water filtered ? that is the real question...?

I can imagine police truck filling up at one of those 1 baht per liter machines Lol

[evadgib]

Emptyset #18:

"The British first experimented with adding dye to water cannon in Belfast in the 1970's, but did not pursue the idea.

"Neptune" was capable of shifting several concrete filled oil-drums across a road with a single blast. That sort of force on humans could prove fatal which is why it rarely ventured outside Girdwood.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/52287882@N05/8199758240/

Edited December 3, 2013 by evadgib

[HuaHinHarold]

The chemicals put in the water are designed to have an effect on humans - It is supposed to cause them to have something happen. We need more information but it should be investigated by Human Rights Watch and the UN Chemical Weapons engineers. The US should be going crazy and should speak out against this use of chemical weapons against humans.

I posted a tweet from Sunai from Human Rights Watch earlier in the thread. This is standard practice and nothing to be concerned about. Here's a Wired article about the practice.

"The British first experimented with adding dye to water cannon in Belfast in the 1970's, but did not pursue the idea. However, many other countries have taken to using water cannon loaded with indelible dye as a means of marking protesters for future arrest, as well as making them look ridiculous.

A whole rainbow of colours has been used. In Uganda earlier this year pink dye was employed to humiliate protesters. In Israel, Palestinian rioters may expect a spray of deep blue, the colour of the Israeli flag. The Hungarian police use green, the Koreans orange."

Just so that we comparing like with like, did you find anywhere in your research a situation where these two chemicals, as opposed to dye, were infused with the tear gas?

Potassium permanganate

Potential Acute Health Effects:

Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation.

Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (permeator).

Possibly corrosive to eyes and skin.

Eye contact can result in corneal damage or blindness.

Skin contact can produce inflammation and blistering.

Inhalation of dust will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by burning, sneezing and coughing.

Severe over-exposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death.

Prolonged exposure may result in skin burns and ulcerations.

Over-exposure by inhalation may cause respiratory irritation.

http://www.sciencela...?msdsId=9927406

Sodium thiosulphate

Potential Health Effects:

Eye: May cause eye irritation.

Skin: May cause skin irritation. May be harmful if absorbed through the skin.

Ingestion: May cause irritation of the digestive tract. May be harmful if swallowed.

Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation. May be harmful if inhaled.

http://www.ch.ntu.ed...zoom=auto,0,410

[WhizBang]

Potassium Permanganate

Section 11: Toxicological Information
Routes of Entry:Absorbed through skin. Eye contact. Inhalation. Ingestion.
Toxicity to Animals:
Acute oral toxicity (LD50): 1090 mg/kg [Rat]. Lowest Published Lethal Dose: LDL[Woman] - Route: Oral; Dose: 100 mg/kg
LDL[Human] - Route: Oral; Dose: 143 mg/kg.
Chronic Effects on Humans:
MUTAGENIC EFFECTS: Mutagenic for bacteria and/or yeast. May cause damage to the following organs: kidneys, liver, skin,
central nervous system (CNS).
Other Toxic Effects on Humans:
p. 5
Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (corrosive), of ingestion, of inhalation. Slightly hazardous in case of
skin contact (permeator).
Special Remarks on Toxicity to Animals:Not available.
Special Remarks on Chronic Effects on Humans:
May cause adverse reproductive effects (Male and Female fertility) based on animal data. May affect genetic material
(mutagenetic) based on animal data.

Sodium Thiosulphate

Section 11 ­ Toxicological Information
RTECS#: CAS# 7772­98­7: XN6476000
LD50/LC50: RTECS: Not available. Other: Oral, rat : LD50 = >5000mg/kg
Carcinogenicity: Sodium thiosulfate ­ Not listed as a carcinogen by ACGIH, IARC, NTP, or CA Prop 65.
Other: See actual entry in RTECS for complete information. The toxicological properties have
not been fully investigated.

Make of it what you will, but hardly innocuous substances. Of course, it would depend on the concentration of the chemicals in the water. As a general rule it is not a good idea to have chemicals sprayed at random on people. So I would have to give a failing grade to whoever decided to ok this.

[attrayant]

Ordinary, plain water by itself kills 3,500 people every year in the USA. So let's get over a little potassium permanganate.

[Emptyset]

The chemicals put in the water are designed to have an effect on humans - It is supposed to cause them to have something happen. We need more information but it should be investigated by Human Rights Watch and the UN Chemical Weapons engineers. The US should be going crazy and should speak out against this use of chemical weapons against humans.

I posted a tweet from Sunai from Human Rights Watch earlier in the thread. This is standard practice and nothing to be concerned about. Here's a Wired article about the practice.

"The British first experimented with adding dye to water cannon in Belfast in the 1970's, but did not pursue the idea. However, many other countries have taken to using water cannon loaded with indelible dye as a means of marking protesters for future arrest, as well as making them look ridiculous.

A whole rainbow of colours has been used. In Uganda earlier this year pink dye was employed to humiliate protesters. In Israel, Palestinian rioters may expect a spray of deep blue, the colour of the Israeli flag. The Hungarian police use green, the Koreans orange."

Just so that we comparing like with like, did you find anywhere in your research a situation where these two chemicals, as opposed to dye, were infused with the tear gas?

Potassium permanganate

Potential Acute Health Effects:

Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation.

Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (permeator).

Possibly corrosive to eyes and skin.

Eye contact can result in corneal damage or blindness.

Skin contact can produce inflammation and blistering.

Inhalation of dust will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by burning, sneezing and coughing.

Severe over-exposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death.

Prolonged exposure may result in skin burns and ulcerations.

Over-exposure by inhalation may cause respiratory irritation.

http://www.sciencela...?msdsId=9927406

Sodium thiosulphate

Potential Health Effects:

Eye: May cause eye irritation.

Skin: May cause skin irritation. May be harmful if absorbed through the skin.

Ingestion: May cause irritation of the digestive tract. May be harmful if swallowed.

Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation. May be harmful if inhaled.

http://www.ch.ntu.ed...zoom=auto,0,410

A lot of things may be harmful in large amounts, including water itself, so that's neither here nor there really.

Potassium Permanganate:

'As an oxidant, potassium permanganate can act as an antiseptic. For example, dilute solutions are used to treat canker sores (ulcers), disinfectant for the hands and treatment for mild pompholyx, dermatitis,^[18][19] and fungal infections of the hands or feet.^[20] Potassium permanganate is used extensively in the water treatment industry. It is used as a regeneration chemical to remove iron and hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg smell) from well water via a "Manganese Greensand" Filter. "Pot-Perm" is also obtainable at pool supply stores, is used additionally to treat waste water. Historically it was used to disinfect drinking water.^[21][22] It currently finds application in the control of nuisance organisms such as Zebra mussels in fresh water collection and treatment systems.'

Sodium Thiosulphate:

It is used as an antidote to cyanide poisoning.Thiosulfate acts as a sulfur donor for the conversion of cyanide to thiocyanate (which can then be safely excreted in the urine), catalyzed by the enzyme rhodanase.

It is used in the management of extravasations during chemotherapy. Sodium thiosulfate prevents alkylation and tissue destruction by providing a substrate for the alkylating agents that have invaded the subcutaneous tissues. The dose may be 2mL of 0.17M (a solution of 4mL 10% sodium thiosulfate and 6mL sterile water for injection). It may be instilled subcutaneously into multiple sites using a small gauge needle. There are limited data on this method with few recommendations.

- in foot baths for prophylaxis of ringworm, and as a topical antifungal agent for tinea versicolor.

--

Doesn't sound like something worth calling the UN about. How and why would they infuse it with the tear gas? Surely the cannisters are sealed?

Edited December 3, 2013 by Emptyset

[HuaHinHarold]

The chemicals put in the water are designed to have an effect on humans - It is supposed to cause them to have something happen. We need more information but it should be investigated by Human Rights Watch and the UN Chemical Weapons engineers. The US should be going crazy and should speak out against this use of chemical weapons against humans.

I posted a tweet from Sunai from Human Rights Watch earlier in the thread. This is standard practice and nothing to be concerned about. Here's a Wired article about the practice.

"The British first experimented with adding dye to water cannon in Belfast in the 1970's, but did not pursue the idea. However, many other countries have taken to using water cannon loaded with indelible dye as a means of marking protesters for future arrest, as well as making them look ridiculous.

A whole rainbow of colours has been used. In Uganda earlier this year pink dye was employed to humiliate protesters. In Israel, Palestinian rioters may expect a spray of deep blue, the colour of the Israeli flag. The Hungarian police use green, the Koreans orange."

Just so that we comparing like with like, did you find anywhere in your research a situation where these two chemicals, as opposed to dye, were infused with the tear gas?

Potassium permanganate

Potential Acute Health Effects:

Hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant), of eye contact (irritant), of ingestion, of inhalation.

Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (permeator).

Possibly corrosive to eyes and skin.

Eye contact can result in corneal damage or blindness.

Skin contact can produce inflammation and blistering.

Inhalation of dust will produce irritation to gastro-intestinal or respiratory tract, characterized by burning, sneezing and coughing.

Severe over-exposure can produce lung damage, choking, unconsciousness or death.

Prolonged exposure may result in skin burns and ulcerations.

Over-exposure by inhalation may cause respiratory irritation.

http://www.sciencela...?msdsId=9927406

Sodium thiosulphate

Potential Health Effects:

Eye: May cause eye irritation.

Skin: May cause skin irritation. May be harmful if absorbed through the skin.

Ingestion: May cause irritation of the digestive tract. May be harmful if swallowed.

Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation. May be harmful if inhaled.

http://www.ch.ntu.ed...zoom=auto,0,410

A lot of things may be harmful in large amounts, including water itself, so that's neither here nor there really.

Doesn't sound like something worth calling the UN about. How and why would they infuse it with the tear gas? Surely the cannisters are sealed?

So then, that's a no, you didn't find another situation where those two chemicals, as opposed to dye, were infused with the tear gas.

Did you find a material safety data sheet for your example of water, which you somehow bizarrely equate to these chemicals, then?

As for how and why they would mix these chemicals, and not dye, I don't know.

All we know is that she said they were with the tear gas.

That and people here cavalierly speculating, with no posted evidence, that there are no harmful effects involved with these chemicals, even thought there are scientific material safety data sheets for each of them pointing to the potential... for harmful effects.

.

Edited December 3, 2013 by HuaHinHarold

[Emptyset]

A lot of things may be harmful in large amounts, including water itself, so that's neither here nor there really.

Doesn't sound like something worth calling the UN about. How and why would they infuse it with the tear gas? Surely the cannisters are sealed?

So then, that's a no, you didn't find another situation where those two chemicals, as opposed to dye, were infused with the tear gas.

Did you find a material safety data sheet for your example of water, which you somehow bizarrely equate to these chemicals, then?

As for how and why they would mix these chemicals, and not dye, I don't know.

All we know is that she said they were with the tear gas.

That and people here cavalierly speculating, with no posted evidence, that there are no harmful effects involved with these chemicals, even thought there are scientific material safety data sheets for each of them pointing to the potential... for harmful effects.

.

I can't see where she says anything about these chemicals being mixed with tear gas. All I see is "And no tear gas was mixed into the water because tear gas cannot be used in water". I don't think anyone is actually claiming these chemicals were mixed with tear gas, are they? I think anti-govt protesters were claiming that the water contained tear gas or acid, not vice versa.

[HuaHinHarold]

Ordinary, plain water by itself kills 3,500 people every year in the USA. So let's get over a little potassium permanganate.

I suppose you could prove your theory by sprinkling it on the doughnut you're eating in your avatar. But be sure to add a dallop of sodium thiosulfate to the glaze for the full effect.

[HuaHinHarold]

A lot of things may be harmful in large amounts, including water itself, so that's neither here nor there really.

Doesn't sound like something worth calling the UN about. How and why would they infuse it with the tear gas? Surely the cannisters are sealed?

So then, that's a no, you didn't find another situation where those two chemicals, as opposed to dye, were infused with the tear gas.

Did you find a material safety data sheet for your example of water, which you somehow bizarrely equate to these chemicals, then?

As for how and why they would mix these chemicals, and not dye, I don't know.

All we know is that she said they were with the tear gas.

That and people here cavalierly speculating, with no posted evidence, that there are no harmful effects involved with these chemicals, even thought there are scientific material safety data sheets for each of them pointing to the potential... for harmful effects.

.

I can't see where she says anything about these chemicals being mixed with tear gas. All I see is "And no tear gas was mixed into the water because tear gas cannot be used in water". I don't think anyone is actually claiming these chemicals were mixed with tear gas, are they? I think anti-govt protesters were claiming that the water contained tear gas or acid, not vice versa.

Yes, you're right. I mixed up the tear gas they used on the protesters with the water cannons they used on the protestors.

It doesn't really change all that much, in regards that chemicals were used against the protestors and that similar situations elsewhere where these chemicals, as opposed to dye, were mixed with the water has yet to be found.

Edited December 3, 2013 by HuaHinHarold