Anybody Filing/ignoring U.s. Irs Td F 90-22.1? (fbar)

[retiree]

US citizens are required to file this form annually (by June 30) if they have "financial interest in or signature authority, or other authority over any financial accounts, including bank, securities, or other types of financial accounts in a foreign country, if the aggregate value of these financial accounts exceeds $10,000 at any time during the calendar year."

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/articl...=148845,00.html

http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f9022-1.pdf

This has always been the law, but as of last year it has some nasty teeth (a $10K fine) in it, even if the violation was not wilful.

That having been said, I was still wondering if anybody knows any actual facts about enforcement/fines if: a) nothing is filed, and the accounts were used for modest living expenses, and only strayed over the $10K limit on rare occasions (the exact limit is only counted on the day of the bank statement, despite the wording above).

[Thaiquila]

Good question, but why not just file it, and then no worries?

I don't yet have a Thai account over 10K but when I do, I plan to file this form, because like you say, the fines are outrageous for not filing.

There are a lot of hassles we have to put up with in the current political climate (money laundering controls, etc.) and I recommend just complying just as we have to comply with Thai immigration rules.

[sfokevin]

So do all the US citizens who have visas that require 400,000 or 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account now have to worry about ANOTHER form...

[Ken]

All I can say is that I've been filing this form since the early 90's. Don't know what would happen if I didn't file except there is a big fine. As far as chances of getting "caught" not filing...like somebody else says...why take the chance.

[lanny]

This is not a difficult form to complete and it does not go to IRS! How it is used, I don't know but it goes to an address in Detroit to an anti-money laundering unit of the Treasury Department.

This is not a new rule and the $10,000 limit hasn't changed in years. So, yes, anyone qualifying for a retirement or marriage visa based on having money in the bank here would be required to file. The $10,000 limit applies to the balance at any time during the year, not at year end. Generally, it applies to bank accounts but, if you have an account with a stock broker, for example, that account would be included.

Also, the rule applies to all accounts over which you have signature authority or other control. So, if you can sign checks on a company account at work, that account has to be taken into consideration. I once had a client who was the SEAsia regaional manager for his company. The company had bank accounts all over the region. His report included 74 accounts!

[lopburi3]

As said it only takes about five minutes to fill out the form. Its main purpose, I believe, is as a charge to get crime figures on when there is no other evidence. For the normal taxpayer it will not be anything but a form on file. And it is not anything new and as said has nothing to do with IRS but I always use tax file time as the time I send that out.

Not a visa topic so moving.

[cclub75]

I'm not a US citizen, but I'm amazed by the lenient side of your comments...

Where is the land of freedom, the struggle against the big government, oppression ?

Come on guys !

You should XXX on this villain law.

The Constitution allows you to own a weapon. And you let some huge database crunching your assets in foreign countries ?

And regarding the efficiency of this law, do you really believe that Mister Bad Guy is filling every year, diligently, his form ?

Of course it doesn't cost you a dime to fill this form, because you are good citizen, isn't it ? But once again it's a matter of principle.

Re-vo-lu-tion !

[Thaiquila]

I agree its a hassle, and symptomatic of increasing government restrictions in the US. However, you have to pick your battles and the chance of getting any support whatsoever for overturning this requirement is basically zilch, so why bother? Just file it and be glad you are in Thailand and the US still allows you to travel freely.

[lopburi3]

do you really believe that Mister Bad Guy is filling every year, diligently, his form ?

That is the whole idea of the law. They do not - so when you bring them to trial you have this charge they can not avoid.

[taxout]

And don't forget to answer that question at the bottom of Schedule B on your 1040 asking whether you've got a foreign bank account.

[backflip]

One problem is, if you don't complete the form and then transfer the money ot the US, the US government is likely to consider the money illegal...and it's up to you to prove differently. Of course, you reply that the money wasn't an illegal accumulation, and they reply that, if it WAS legal, you would have reported it. As other posters have written, complete the form...

[pap]

One problem is, if you don't complete the form and then transfer the money ot the US, the US government is likely to consider the money illegal...and it's up to you to prove differently. Of course, you reply that the money wasn't an illegal accumulation, and they reply that, if it WAS legal, you would have reported it. As other posters have written, complete the form...

When is the form required to be filed?

Example: xfered money from an account to purchase condo. The account intially had well over 10,000 Then the account moved under the limit.

Is the form still required and when is it required? At tax time or immediately.

Also seems that checking the box on irs form that you have a foreign account will almost guarantee an audit.

Sounds like lots of headaches and is why our country is going into the toilet.

Any advice appreciated.

[pap]

One problem is, if you don't complete the form and then transfer the money ot the US, the US government is likely to consider the money illegal...and it's up to you to prove differently. Of course, you reply that the money wasn't an illegal accumulation, and they reply that, if it WAS legal, you would have reported it. As other posters have written, complete the form...

Sorry, should have read the form before asking stupid questions. All the info I requested is on the form. DUH!.

[kdvsn]

I'm not a US citizen, but I'm amazed by the lenient side of your comments...

Where is the land of freedom, the struggle against the big government, oppression ?

Come on guys !

You should XXX on this villain law.

The Constitution allows you to own a weapon. And you let some huge database crunching your assets in foreign countries ?

And regarding the efficiency of this law, do you really believe that Mister Bad Guy is filling every year, diligently, his form ?

Of course it doesn't cost you a dime to fill this form, because you are good citizen, isn't it ? But once again it's a matter of principle.

Re-vo-lu-tion !

You could say the same thing about taxes on income earned outside of the US by its citizens who reside abroad. What business is it of the US government how much money I make, save, and spend outside its borders and what entitles them to take a portion of it? I suspect that problem is not unique to the US though.

Edited May 12, 2006 by kdvsn

[pap]

I'm not a US citizen, but I'm amazed by the lenient side of your comments...

Where is the land of freedom, the struggle against the big government, oppression ?

Come on guys !

You should XXX on this villain law.

The Constitution allows you to own a weapon. And you let some huge database crunching your assets in foreign countries ?

And regarding the efficiency of this law, do you really believe that Mister Bad Guy is filling every year, diligently, his form ?

Of course it doesn't cost you a dime to fill this form, because you are good citizen, isn't it ? But once again it's a matter of principle.

Re-vo-lu-tion !

You could say the same thing about taxes on income earned outside of the US by its citizens who reside abroad. What business is it of the US government how much money I make, save, and spend outside its borders and what entitles them to take a portion of it? I suspect that problem is not unique to the US though.

You should be ashamed of yourself......Questioning the need for your taxes.Our government knows what is best for you. Democrat or Republican. Consider yourself lucky to have a government willing to impose its ways on others on your behalf. Be happy that they will maintain your roads and borders so when you return you know you can drive in your clearly defined area. Your tax dollars are hard at work paying for Katrina survivors.....even if they werent actually in the area the hurricane hit...... be happy for your contribution to our schools.... how else would the school administrators get paid.......be happy your money goes into social security earning you a return less than the current prime rate in Japan. You should be grateful your tax dollars are used in such a way..... Be grateful of the welfare give away programs you support for people who don't want to work. It could be worse ... you could be here watching your money being spent by people who can't seem to balance a check book.

[Thaiquila]

The reality is that US laws are not geared to cater to expats. Most Americans consider expats unpatriotic. Why would you leave, they think, the country that EVERYONE on earth is clamouring to get into, even illegally? Must be something wrong with you. If you live abroad, other than the president, what other representative represents you? Nobody. So just file the form and grin and bear it, because if anything else, a US passport is a good passport to travel with (unless you fancy a holiday in North Korea or Cuba).

[lanny]

When is the form required to be filed?

Example: xfered money from an account to purchase condo. The account intially had well over 10,000 Then the account moved under the limit.

Is the form still required and when is it required? At tax time or immediately.

Also seems that checking the box on irs form that you have a foreign account will almost guarantee an audit.

Sounds like lots of headaches and is why our country is going into the toilet.

Any advice appreciated.

The form is due by June 30 each year (for the preceding year, of course) and is required if the minimum amount is met at any time during the year. So, even if you just transfer money in and very shortly afterward spend it all, you would still have to file the form.

Checking the box does not trigger an audit. If you check the box and don't file the form, you will probably get a form letter, but that's all. The report is an anti-money laundering tool and is not used in any way for income taxes.

[taxout]

"The report is an anti-money laundering tool and is not used in any way for income taxes."

Not true, as the Privacy Act disclosure on the form itself makes clear:

"The principal purpose for collecting the information is to assure maintenance of reports where such reports or records have a high degree of usefulness in criminal, tax, or regulatory investigations or proceedings. The information collected may be provided to those officers and employees of any constituent unit of the Department of the Treasury who have a need for the records in the performance of their duties."

The IRS is a constituent unit of the Treasury Department.

See, too, Section 4, "Examination of Income" from the IRS Manual in which audit agents are directed to the Currency and Banking Retrieval System (CBRS), which provides access to your TD 90-22.1 and other forms.

http://www.irs.gov/irm/part4/ch10s08.html

[Carmine6]

The reality is that US laws are not geared to cater to expats. Most Americans consider expats unpatriotic. Why would you leave, they think, the country that EVERYONE on earth is clamouring to get into, even illegally? Must be something wrong with you. If you live abroad, other than the president, what other representative represents you? Nobody. So just file the form and grin and bear it, because if anything else, a US passport is a good passport to travel with (unless you fancy a holiday in North Korea or Cuba).

I don't agree that most Americans think expats are unpatriotic. I do think people want ex-pats to pay taxes in the same way that people think the rich should pay higher tax rates. Too many people are willing to raise eveyone else's taxes.

By the way, one of the "loopholes" John Kerry wanted to close was the credit for foriegn taxes paid. So that you would have to pay BOTH the foreign taxes and US taxes on foreign income. Remember the "loophole" that companies supposedly got for "outsourcing" jobs. Well this was it. Went to his website to see what loophole he was talking about and I couldn't believe it. Has to be 99% of the credits taken have nothing to do with outsourced jobs.

If I transferred over $10,000 to an account I'd definitely file since it'll be traceable that the account had over $10,000 during the year. But honestly, if I had an account that occassionally went a bit over the limit during the year from foreign income or something, I probably wouldn't file it.