Bad, Bad Drivers: Who's to Blame for Bangkok's Traffic Problems?

[socksy01]

Look into my eyes......not around the eyes.................look into my eyes............you are getting very sleepy...........now listen carefully.......there are no traffic problems in Bangkok............policemen are your friends...............policemen are public servants..........from now on when you are stopped by a traffic officer you will think the 1000 baht note in your wallet is your driving license................OK. 3, 2, 1 you're back in the room."

Love it from Little Britain. Quality. Is it me or is there a strong resemblance between the cop and the 'dummy' behind who looks as if it's had a motorbike crash with an eggshell helmet on?

[belg]

too many cars

well the governement 1st car buyer scam put how many more in the streets of bangkok ? about 200.000 ?

[Curt1591]

Maybe if people would stop making rolling left turns against the lights.

Maybe if people would yield to oncoming traffic ( see above).

Maybe if people would keep to one lane.

Maybe if people wouldn't switch lanes every time their lane slows a bit.

Maybe if people would not park in "No Parking" zones.

Maybe if taxis and tuk tuks would pul out of traffic to discuss fares.

Never mind!

[IDL]

Interesting article,however just a tad myopic. Thailand's traffic problems are the sole responsibility of the Government.

Too many cars, bad weather, insensitive and callous driving habits are effects of a failed system and not the cause.

The Government is wholly responsible for the number and condition of the vehicles on the road.The Government is wholly responsible for the lack of transport infrastructure and maintenance. The Government is wholly responsible for the efficiency of the police in their responsibilities to enforce current rues and statues pertaining to road use

My point is that little or nothing is or has been done to help alleviate these problems which are all Governmental responsibilities.

We all know how poorly the RTP perform their duties and they report to the Government. If the Government does not give a dam then why should the police give up their supplementary incomes, which by the way is a practice fully understood and accepted by the Government.

I'm not sure that the words 'responsibility' & 'Government' should actually be permitted in the same sentence...

[IDL]

During rush hour there are more vehicles than roads.More roads will have to bet built.There's no way of getting around it.

Or you could add more public transport to get the cars off the road.

Sent from my phone ...

IMO there are plenty of public transport options...the prob as I see it is, be it bus or train, you ain't gonna get drivers on it unless they have somewhere convenient to park! Have you not noticed the severe lack of car parking facilities, anywhere near most bus/train stops?

[hawker9000]

'Just one manifestation of the thai "see, I'm smiling, but ME FIRST" thing. So charming.

[NoshowJones]

One of the main problem is the police playing with traffic lights without coordination, it should be automatic.

I do agree....... whenever I am in a long tailback it is generally behind a junction where the lights are under police control. They seem to leave them for an extremely long time before changing, a single direction being held open for one or 2 stragglers while 3 others just wait, not very efficient. I have seen them pull a bike over and forget all about the lights!

Your last sentence, so have I.

[NoshowJones]

Maybe if people would stop making rolling left turns against the lights.

Maybe if people would yield to oncoming traffic ( see above).

Maybe if people would keep to one lane.

Maybe if people wouldn't switch lanes every time their lane slows a bit.

Maybe if people would not park in "No Parking" zones.

Maybe if taxis and tuk tuks would pul out of traffic to discuss fares.

Never mind!

Your second sentence, no Thai driver will ever yield to you if there is an obstruction ie, a parked car on their side, they will always pull out on to the wrong side of the road and force you to brake.

[Bpuumike]

cant be a standard issued police watch

Maybe a Thailand copy?

[Bpuumike]

During rush hour there are more vehicles than roads.More roads will have to bet built.There's no way of getting around it.

Or you could add more public transport to get the cars off the road.

Sent from my phone ...

IMO there are plenty of public transport options...the prob as I see it is, be it bus or train, you ain't gonna get drivers on it unless they have somewhere convenient to park! Have you not noticed the severe lack of car parking facilities, anywhere near most bus/train stops?

Good point. The only parking seems to be Malls or supermarkets.

The road system is very good and there is really no space or need for expansion in BKK.

Any available parking space becomes a condo block.

Money talks, traffic jams.

[whybother]

During rush hour there are more vehicles than roads.More roads will have to bet built.There's no way of getting around it.

Or you could add more public transport to get the cars off the road.

Sent from my phone ...

IMO there are plenty of public transport options...the prob as I see it is, be it bus or train, you ain't gonna get drivers on it unless they have somewhere convenient to park! Have you not noticed the severe lack of car parking facilities, anywhere near most bus/train stops?

If you have to drive somewhere to park, then obviously there isn't enough public transport options. The idea should be that you don't need a car to be able to catch public transport.

[IDL]

During rush hour there are more vehicles than roads.More roads will have to bet built.There's no way of getting around it.

Or you could add more public transport to get the cars off the road.

Sent from my phone ...

IMO there are plenty of public transport options...the prob as I see it is, be it bus or train, you ain't gonna get drivers on it unless they have somewhere convenient to park! Have you not noticed the severe lack of car parking facilities, anywhere near most bus/train stops?

If you have to drive somewhere to park, then obviously there isn't enough public transport options. The idea should be that you don't need a car to be able to catch public transport.

Not sure where you live, but for the most part, inner-city Thai workers live far beyond the city centre and often embark on epic journeys (both ways) just to get to work. If car parking spaces were available at city-fringe transportation facilities, so so many would hop on the bus/train.

I am of course talking about [enough] public transport in the city. If trains etc were to have huge investment for out-lying areas, the city itself would simply expand, IMHO

[whybother]

Not sure where you live, but for the most part, inner-city Thai workers live far beyond the city centre and often embark on epic journeys (both ways) just to get to work. If car parking spaces were available at city-fringe transportation facilities, so so many would hop on the bus/train.

I am of course talking about [enough] public transport in the city. If trains etc were to have huge investment for out-lying areas, the city itself would simply expand, IMHO

There are park and ride locations at quite a few fringe stations. But there aren't enough stations or lines to enable people to use them to get where they want.

If you look here (http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/406991-the-new-skytrain/?p=7036051) it shows the plans for train lines in Bangkok. When all of these are built, there will be less need to drive to get to anywhere in Bangkok. If you look through that thread, you can read about the current status of the developments. All of these lines are being developed in areas that are already built up, so there wouldn't need to be expansion of the city. It would probably promote high density living further out from the centre though.

Building more roads will just mean more cars will need to find parking at their end locations. If people are driving to work, that will often mean that the various business districts will need to provide more parking. There already isn't enough space for parking in those areas, and there certainly isn't any space to build more roads in those areas.

Building integrated public transport systems will mean that there will be less need for people to drive cars anywhere, which means that will be less need to build new roads.

[hawker9000]

During rush hour there are more vehicles than roads.More roads will have to bet built.There's no way of getting around it.

Or you could add more public transport to get the cars off the road.

Sent from my phone ...

IMO there are plenty of public transport options...the prob as I see it is, be it bus or train, you ain't gonna get drivers on it unless they have somewhere convenient to park! Have you not noticed the severe lack of car parking facilities, anywhere near most bus/train stops?

If you have to drive somewhere to park, then obviously there isn't enough public transport options. The idea should be that you don't need a car to be able to catch public transport.

This is the whole concept behind "satellite" parking facilities which aren't uncommon in big cities around the US. The idea is to give commuters an alternative to having to worry about expensive and limited downtown parking, not to mention inner-city traffic. Not so much to eliminate the need for a car at all. I would say it's actually a great "force multiplier" for existing public transport options: it gives many a convenient means of accessing public transport they might not otherwise have - makes total sense.

[CaptHaddock]

As is typical on Thaivisa there's a lot of strident opinion and none, that is, zero, knowledge of the facts of the situation. The cause of the traffic problems in Bangkok is not yet another defect in the Thai mentality, corruption, problems of law enforcement, Buddhism, or any of the other variations on race-based theory.

Here's the report from a UN-Habitat study titled, "The Relevance of Street Patterns and Public Space in Urban Areas," April, 2013. Among the factors studied is the percentage of total urban area devoted to streets and roads in a selection of world cities, which includes Bangkok. Manhattan is the highest at 36%. Paris is 29.7% Tokyo is 28.7%. Bangkok is 15.9%, which puts it just above the lowest third of the cities measured, just above Kolkata at 15.2% and Ouagadougou at 12.3%. That physical fact constrains all other aspects of the road system included such factors as roadway design and law enforcement practices.

There are other factors such as per capita GDP, population density, and the extent of public transportation. But there is no way of getting around the fact that there is not enough roadway in Bangkok to meet first world expectations of efficient traffic flow.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unhabitat.org%2Fpmss%2FgetElectronicVersion.aspx%3Fnr%3D3465%26alt%3D1&ei=Gs6mUsSLPMGHrAf89YD4Dw&usg=AFQjCNFaG0hCi1ODe3mocz8x5p6_IUyOYA&bvm=bv.57799294,d.bmk

[marko kok prong]

motorsias that never look right when entering a main road,kids with no helmets no insurance, talking on mobile phones 4 up on a motorsai,motorsais overtaking you you as you attempt a right turn,having stopped and indicated, i was recently about one inch from killing a guy who overtook me early in the morning,as i turned right,cleary indicating and having come to a full stop,he merely glanced back at me as he so nearly lost his life,no helmet of course,unfortunatley Thai people cannot anticipate what could happen,and i find motorsais the main problem,car drivers can be bad too,but i guess they have more of an investment in the vehicle,in 18 months living here i have had more near misses than in 31 years driving in uk,usa,europe and australia,i really do not enjoy driving here,as none of these accidents would have been caused by me ,yet i know as a falang i would be blamed,i have 1st class insurance and a Thai licence,but really ,thai lak Thai ,so i don't have great faith in this,you have to be 200% alert at all times,but what really angers me is if the police and government actually had a prolonged crack down,on underage drivers,no helmets,vehicles with no lights[front and rear] on the roads at night,they could make a big inroad into the road deaths,but as many other members have said,if you have enough budda, statues on the dash and the flower things hanging from the rear view mirror,what could go wrong!

[mmh8]

I will accept responsibilty for my bad driving, I just figure if they can behave badly on the road so can I. wrt to the traffic problems a lot of that has to do with letting the police control traffic lights at junctions with others on radio at strategic points lol, yes apparently the system is rigged to be automatic but it would result in loss of face for too many police.

seriously

[Berkshire]

I'll admit that you Bangkok folks have it much worse than anywhere else in Thailand. I've driven all over Thailand and it's not that bad outside of the capitol. If I had to live in Bangkok, and having to drive every day, I'd probably want out. Which begs the question--why would anyone who has a choice (read retirees) want to live in Bangkok?

[Bpuumike]

motorsias that never look right when entering a main road,kids with no helmets no insurance, talking on mobile phones 4 up on a motorsai,motorsais overtaking you you as you attempt a right turn,having stopped and indicated, i was recently about one inch from killing a guy who overtook me early in the morning,as i turned right,cleary indicating and having come to a full stop,he merely glanced back at me as he so nearly lost his life,no helmet of course,unfortunatley Thai people cannot anticipate what could happen,and i find motorsais the main problem,car drivers can be bad too,but i guess they have more of an investment in the vehicle,in 18 months living here i have had more near misses than in 31 years driving in uk,usa,europe and australia,i really do not enjoy driving here,as none of these accidents would have been caused by me ,yet i know as a falang i would be blamed,i have 1st class insurance and a Thai licence,but really ,thai lak Thai ,so i don't have great faith in this,you have to be 200% alert at all times,but what really angers me is if the police and government actually had a prolonged crack down,on underage drivers,no helmets,vehicles with no lights[front and rear] on the roads at night,they could make a big inroad into the road deaths,but as many other members have said,if you have enough budda, statues on the dash and the flower things hanging from the rear view mirror,what could go wrong!

And Thb 500 in your pocket of course.

Don't help if you're dead though.

[taony]

As is typical on Thaivisa there's a lot of strident opinion and none, that is, zero, knowledge of the facts of the situation. The cause of the traffic problems in Bangkok is not yet another defect in the Thai mentality, corruption, problems of law enforcement, Buddhism, or any of the other variations on race-based theory.

Here's the report from a UN-Habitat study titled, "The Relevance of Street Patterns and Public Space in Urban Areas," April, 2013. Among the factors studied is the percentage of total urban area devoted to streets and roads in a selection of world cities, which includes Bangkok. Manhattan is the highest at 36%. Paris is 29.7% Tokyo is 28.7%. Bangkok is 15.9%, which puts it just above the lowest third of the cities measured, just above Kolkata at 15.2% and Ouagadougou at 12.3%. That physical fact constrains all other aspects of the road system included such factors as roadway design and law enforcement practices.

There are other factors such as per capita GDP, population density, and the extent of public transportation. But there is no way of getting around the fact that there is not enough roadway in Bangkok to meet first world expectations of efficient traffic flow.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unhabitat.org%2Fpmss%2FgetElectronicVersion.aspx%3Fnr%3D3465%26alt%3D1&ei=Gs6mUsSLPMGHrAf89YD4Dw&usg=AFQjCNFaG0hCi1ODe3mocz8x5p6_IUyOYA&bvm=bv.57799294,d.bmk

This is the problem and its always been more than obvious to me, even from the first time I cam here 15 years ago. I don't think it takes a study for people to realize this, but maybe it does. The article on the high speed train quoted the Thai government official as saying the area in Bangkok devoted to land transportation is 8% (including subways I supposed), so the numbers may be debatable, but there is no doubt that the answer is the system is completely inadequate. I've seen people on buses recently using the gps and maps to see their progress. I told my wife that maybe someday soon Thais will start complaining about this as they are beginning to see for themselves the ridiculousness of this city "plan".

Factor in other things like sois, which add to the street area of the city but are not legitimate thoroughfares so do not help in moving traffic. Most of the them are dead ends or barely passable, they are literally just driveways to residences. Having intersections 1 or 2 km apart is completely ridiculous as is 20 mn traffic lights. Also factor in the insane "u-turn" system which keeps cars on the roads much longer than they need to be, and how there are no shoulders, buffer zones, and narrow lanes and you have the traffic disaster we have in Bangkok. (when making a u-turn or coming into a road from a car park, it is impossible to enter without using two or three lanes which causes more delays to the traffic already in the road).

The worst and most inexplicable part is that this "system" is continuing to be built, and all over Thailand it is repeated with new construction. Land is sold in weird, narrow plots, skewed to the road which makes it difficult to enter or exit and even move around within the plot. My condo is only 3 years old, so newly built. But it seems to me no one gave any thought to pedestrian access even though it is marketed for being close to public transportation like BTS and airport link. Its designed purely for car access, but even for that, the design is a dismal failure.

I don't blame Thais for being bad drivers. What chance do they really have to learn to drive properly? I don't blame motorcycles for riding on the sidewalks. Or cars going the wrong way on a shoulder when trying to enter their house/building instead of driving a few km further making a u-turn and driving a few km back. Who could blame them? Is there an alternative? Leaving my building to go to work in a car or motorcycle would be fine, but coming home - if I were to drive and follow the road "system", there would be more than 5 extra kms, three intersections, and loads of traffic to make the trip even longer. So if a motorcycle wants to drive the last 300m along my sidewalk (which is probably only less than 2km wide to begin with, but thats another story!) - go ahead!!

[CaptHaddock]

It's not that the city "plan" of Bangkok is so ridiculous. It's just that it wasn't planned for auto traffic. Paris wasn't either, but then the city was remodeled in the 1860's, introducing the "boulevard" to the world as a means of riot control. New York City wasn't planned for auto traffic either even though Manhattan was laid out in a grid pattern in 1811. However, Robert Moses got control of city planning in the 1930's and proceeded to tear down whole neighborhoods to erect throughways within the city. Bangkok has never had a makeover to accommodate automobile traffic. The question is whether it should at this point. I think public transportation should be developed instead of gas-guzzling, polluting, inefficient automobiles. In the US the average automobile is used for an hour a day and sits idle for the rest of the time. The big advantage of living in a high-density city is the possibility of public transportation.

Here in Bangkok I take the BTS and MRT every day and arrive at my end station at the same time to the minute without worrying about where to park much less the expense of maintaining a vehicle. Building out a road system for auto traffic where it is doesn't already exist in this day and age is like building out a land line phone system when you could go straight to wireless. The day of the auto has already passed.

It is unfortunate that pedestrians have basically no status or consideration at all in Thailand. So where there are sidewalks at all they are inadequate and walking space is commonly pre-empted for things like utility poles. Not surprising that condos make no accommodation for pedestrians.

The shape of the plots of land and the layout of the streets in Bangkok seems to have arisen from earlier use as rice fields. The thoroughfares may have been canals originally. At least the street layout looks to me just like rice fields from the air. We have to keep the history of the city in mind. Sois that are not throughways could be blocked off to make cul-de-sacs, reducing vehicular traffic to the minimum.

So my vote would be more public transportation, restrictions on auto use within the city, more and better sidewalks and taxis.

As is typical on Thaivisa there's a lot of strident opinion and none, that is, zero, knowledge of the facts of the situation. The cause of the traffic problems in Bangkok is not yet another defect in the Thai mentality, corruption, problems of law enforcement, Buddhism, or any of the other variations on race-based theory.

Here's the report from a UN-Habitat study titled, "The Relevance of Street Patterns and Public Space in Urban Areas," April, 2013. Among the factors studied is the percentage of total urban area devoted to streets and roads in a selection of world cities, which includes Bangkok. Manhattan is the highest at 36%. Paris is 29.7% Tokyo is 28.7%. Bangkok is 15.9%, which puts it just above the lowest third of the cities measured, just above Kolkata at 15.2% and Ouagadougou at 12.3%. That physical fact constrains all other aspects of the road system included such factors as roadway design and law enforcement practices.

There are other factors such as per capita GDP, population density, and the extent of public transportation. But there is no way of getting around the fact that there is not enough roadway in Bangkok to meet first world expectations of efficient traffic flow.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CCgQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.unhabitat.org%2Fpmss%2FgetElectronicVersion.aspx%3Fnr%3D3465%26alt%3D1&ei=Gs6mUsSLPMGHrAf89YD4Dw&usg=AFQjCNFaG0hCi1ODe3mocz8x5p6_IUyOYA&bvm=bv.57799294,d.bmk

This is the problem and its always been more than obvious to me, even from the first time I cam here 15 years ago. I don't think it takes a study for people to realize this, but maybe it does. The article on the high speed train quoted the Thai government official as saying the area in Bangkok devoted to land transportation is 8% (including subways I supposed), so the numbers may be debatable, but there is no doubt that the answer is the system is completely inadequate. I've seen people on buses recently using the gps and maps to see their progress. I told my wife that maybe someday soon Thais will start complaining about this as they are beginning to see for themselves the ridiculousness of this city "plan".

Factor in other things like sois, which add to the street area of the city but are not legitimate thoroughfares so do not help in moving traffic. Most of the them are dead ends or barely passable, they are literally just driveways to residences. Having intersections 1 or 2 km apart is completely ridiculous as is 20 mn traffic lights. Also factor in the insane "u-turn" system which keeps cars on the roads much longer than they need to be, and how there are no shoulders, buffer zones, and narrow lanes and you have the traffic disaster we have in Bangkok. (when making a u-turn or coming into a road from a car park, it is impossible to enter without using two or three lanes which causes more delays to the traffic already in the road).

The worst and most inexplicable part is that this "system" is continuing to be built, and all over Thailand it is repeated with new construction. Land is sold in weird, narrow plots, skewed to the road which makes it difficult to enter or exit and even move around within the plot. My condo is only 3 years old, so newly built. But it seems to me no one gave any thought to pedestrian access even though it is marketed for being close to public transportation like BTS and airport link. Its designed purely for car access, but even for that, the design is a dismal failure.

I don't blame Thais for being bad drivers. What chance do they really have to learn to drive properly? I don't blame motorcycles for riding on the sidewalks. Or cars going the wrong way on a shoulder when trying to enter their house/building instead of driving a few km further making a u-turn and driving a few km back. Who could blame them? Is there an alternative? Leaving my building to go to work in a car or motorcycle would be fine, but coming home - if I were to drive and follow the road "system", there would be more than 5 extra kms, three intersections, and loads of traffic to make the trip even longer. So if a motorcycle wants to drive the last 300m along my sidewalk (which is probably only less than 2km wide to begin with, but thats another story!) - go ahead!!