Its for the best that there is no social security system in Thailand.... Uk comparison

[sustento]

I tend to agree but without the contemptuous attitude shared by so many TV armchair economists when discussing the welfare state.

It's so bloody easy to sit there having grown up as part of a generation that benefited enormously from a period of unprecedented economic growth in the West.

It's easy when you only had to buy a house in the 70s, live in it for 30 years and then sell it for any number of times more than what you paid.

It's easy when you've worked, paid into and are now living on the proceeds of a final salary pension scheme. They're nowhere near as common these days, are they?

It's easy when you could bounce out of school with a degree and straight into a job with a British company at a time when our ingenuity still led the world.

It's so easy when all you had to do was "buy-and-hold" stocks to see them soar in value many times over.

Frankly, I think a lot of you should really consider yourselves mighty fortunate that you were born and worked at the right time rather than sitting there passing judgment on the overwhelming majority of deserving welfare recipients.

I sincerely doubt that many of you would stand a snowball-in-hell's chance of cutting it as a young graduate in today's environment.

I think the government has done a good job cutting the bill for the welfare state but there will always be those who abuse it.

"

"It's so bloody easy to sit there having grown up as part of a generation that benefited enormously from a period of unprecedented economic growth in the West. "

"Growth" fueled in large part by irresponsible leverage, i.e. borrowing staggering amounts with the intention of passing the debt on to future generations. That as well as financial chicanery and greed that had devastating consequences circa 2008 to date, and probably worse to come.

It's easy when you've worked, paid into and are now living on the proceeds of a final salary pension scheme. They're nowhere near as common these days, are they?

Definitely agree about this. Speaking in my case from the US perspective. I have a decent income from pension and social security, both of which have some (dubious) adjustments made annually with regard to inflation. I also have 80% reimbursement for all medical, dental, vision-related and prescription drug costs, paid even while I reside in Thailand. It's doubtful the pension and medical reimbursement programs will remain in place for future generations and the government social security program will be on shaky financial foundations. The whole idea of voluntary retirement will probably never be the same again.

It's easy when you could bounce out of school with a degree and straight into a job with a British company at a time when our ingenuity still led the world.

Not sure whether British ingenuity led the world in many areas after World War II but, again from the American perspective, I recall graduating from university at a time when businesses sent recruiters to the campus to entice/bribe us to join them. I changed employers a few times on my terms and was able to get an additional two degrees later in life while on leave with full salary and most expenses paid. Nowadays a university degree only assures employment in a few select sectors and most university grads in the US start working with the burden of a mind-numbing debt for educational loans that will take years to repay.

While I should not be critical of all these benefits that I've received, and I do genuinely feel lucky to have lived during a time when things were pretty free and easy, the fact still remains that a lot of these generous "handouts" were based on the concept of spending now, promising more in the near term future and don't worry how it will be paid for ... an attitude shared by government, businesses and individuals. And this view hardly seems to be affected by the recent world wide economic and financial crises.

"Not sure whether British ingenuity led the world in many areas after World War II"

Well the Americans certainly didn't,as they stole all of Hitler's Nazi scientists to build the Apollo rockets and that's when NASA and it's famous Jet Propulsion Laboratory was born!

Agree in principle, but just a slight edit;

They got 'Rocket' technology from the Nazi Scientists, 'Jet engine' technology they were of course given by the Brits, along with the Magnatron (Radar)

http://www.businessweek.com/chapter/invent.htm

[sustento]

I flabbergasted my colleagues a few years ago when it came up that I could return to my own country, sign on the dole which the most basic one equated to around 40,000b a month, for doing nothing.

Where do you get your 40,000Bt a month from? Current JSA is £71.70 a week.

[Sloopydee]

I flabbergasted my colleagues a few years ago when it came up that I could return to my own country, sign on the dole which the most basic one equated to around 40,000b a month, for doing nothing.

Where do you get your 40,000Bt a month from? Current JSA is £71.70 a week.

I'm not from the UK, this was in around 2007 and the basic weekly dole at the time equated to 10,000b. iirc it was something like 220 euros a week. For a single person in their 20's not paying rent (My brother, for a few months).

I have no idea if it has been cut since then, but would presume that it has in annual budgets.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Sloopydee

[sustento]

I flabbergasted my colleagues a few years ago when it came up that I could return to my own country, sign on the dole which the most basic one equated to around 40,000b a month, for doing nothing.

Where do you get your 40,000Bt a month from? Current JSA is £71.70 a week.

I'm not from the UK, this was in around 2007 and the basic weekly dole at the time equated to 10,000b. iirc it was something like 220 euros a week.

I have no idea if it has been cut since then, but would presume that it has in annual budgets.

The JSA in the UK has never been cut. It rises each year by the same amount as inflation so there is no way that it was 10,000Bt in 2007 as it's only around 3500Bt a week now.

[plachon]

The welfare system has destroyed the UK. Most of the people who would have taken the lower paid jobs (quite gladly) refuse to do this work now because they can get as much or more in benefits. This is a great waste of their life but also means the UK has no one to do these basic jobs (except more immigrants who in turn will soon turn to a life on benefits).

You sound like a fully paid up UKIP member, ready to star in Little Britain. Glad to hear that UK is such a "destroyed" nation, given the fact that a large proportion of the people who keep the country running and vibrant, from care workers to doctors to MPs to bus drivers, are in fact, first or second generation immigrants. I don't notice too many on benefits or "wasting" their lives, but I do see them paying a healthy share into the national economy in taxes and social capital. The UK is, and always has been, a country of immigrants if you'd only open your eyes to notice.

[Sloopydee]

I flabbergasted my colleagues a few years ago when it came up that I could return to my own country, sign on the dole which the most basic one equated to around 40,000b a month, for doing nothing.

Where do you get your 40,000Bt a month from? Current JSA is £71.70 a week.

I'm not from the UK, this was in around 2007 and the basic weekly dole at the time equated to 10,000b. iirc it was something like 220 euros a week.

I have no idea if it has been cut since then, but would presume that it has in annual budgets.

The JSA in the UK has never been cut. It rises each year by the same amount as inflation so there is no way that it was 10,000Bt in 2007 as it's only around 3500Bt a week now.

Some people just can't read, can they.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Sloopydee

[Sloopydee]

Just took a look and it has been slashed a number of times in my country since 2007. Now it stands at 144 euro a week, or about 25k baht a month.

Still probably mindblowing to a Thai.

Sit around at home all day and do nothing, recieve 25k baht a month.

[Hardened Spanker]

Come on now,it's still no justification for heading to Thailand to become a Boiler Room Billy and bilking gullible pensioners out of their life savings though is it?

Nope but that IS what you did, isn't it?

Couldn't you cut it as a TEFLer, then?

Oh I forgot,you're a "Legitimate daytrader",aren't you?

So which trading platform do you use then?Is your broker an STP or ECN broker?Which indicators do you use?And do you use Level 2 trading?

Again,I won't hold my breath for your answer!

[watcharacters]

Hardendsaul,

its easy to pontificate (how old are you) but when i left school and went to live in London i got married and yes i bought a house for only 4250 pounds ,i was earning the princly sum of about 20 odd quid a week ,i remember well worrying myself sick how we were going to afford the 6 pounds a month rates(councill tax) there was no final salary pension scheme for most of us (unless you work for the govt) ,and what there was was destroyed by Gordon Brown and the labour govt ,even the very small private pension i get is mostly taken in tax. very few of us believe me traded in stocks. yes it was easier to get a job ,but there was not the sort of social money that todays unemployed get believe me , it was easier in some ways ,but believe me when i say ,it was sometimes just as much of a struggle with a young familly and without the massive safty net they now get.

I wonder about the year reference of both you and Soul?

Care to tell us?

edit. sorry I missed the "SAUL" part. but I do like the soul a tad better.

Edited December 15, 2013 by watcharacters

[Thongkorn]

I suppose its easy to speak from a lofty position about welfare. When you have nothing and no chance of getting anything , not of your own making, but because of politics, Like you are old at 30 nobody wants to employ you, maybe if people understood Thai culture they would have a more sympathetic attitude to the down and outs, people should pick them up, not put them down.

[watcharacters]

Come on now,it's still no justification for heading to Thailand to become a Boiler Room Billy and bilking gullible pensioners out of their life savings though is it?

Nope but that IS what you did, isn't it?

Couldn't you cut it as a TEFLer, then?

Oh I forgot,you're a "Legitimate daytrader",aren't you?

So which trading platform do you use then?Is your broker an STP or ECN broker?Which indicators do you use?And do you use Level 2 trading?

Again,I won't hold my breath for your answer!

.

All day traders are guaranteed at least an income of 135K / yr in the USA.

at least far as bragging goes. They may actually lose yearly as it's an addiction for them.

[manarak]

This thread of course has all the socialo-commies coming out.

I believe the state, in addition to good free education and "80-20" healthcare, has to guarantee equality of opportunity and has to provide a minimum "safety net" for people who don't have anything.

But this safety net should not include more than pocket money and it should be uncomfortable enough (such as sharing a room with 3 other people in state-sponsored accommodation) to motivate people to earn their money by working.

[nontabury]

This thread of course has all the socialo-commies coming out.

I believe the state, in addition to good free education and "80-20" healthcare, has to guarantee equality of opportunity and has to provide a minimum "safety net" for people who don't have anything.

But this safety net should not include more than pocket money and it should be uncomfortable enough (such as sharing a room with 3 other people in state-sponsored accommodation) to motivate people to earn their money by working.

EXACTLY.

And unfortunately it's getting no better, according to a parliamentary question this week, out of 8,700 benefit claimants who were convicted of fraud, only 5% finished up in prison,some for only a short period of time,even though the amount they falsely claimed was in some cases very high. And these are the numbers that they even considered it viable to prosecute, many,many more got away with just a slap on the wrist, not to mention those whom the authorities do not know about.

Just think about it, if all this STOLEN money could be used in education and health care, what a difference it would make.

[StreetCowboy]

This thread of course has all the socialo-commies coming out.

I believe the state, in addition to good free education and "80-20" healthcare, has to guarantee equality of opportunity and has to provide a minimum "safety net" for people who don't have anything.

But this safety net should not include more than pocket money and it should be uncomfortable enough (such as sharing a room with 3 other people in state-sponsored accommodation) to motivate people to earn their money by working.

EXACTLY.

And unfortunately it's getting no better, according to a parliamentary question this week, out of 8,700 benefit claimants who were convicted of fraud, only 5% finished up in prison,some for only a short period of time,even though the amount they falsely claimed was in some cases very high. And these are the numbers that they even considered it viable to prosecute, many,many more got away with just a slap on the wrist, not to mention those whom the authorities do not know about.

Just think about it, if all this STOLEN money could be used in education and health care, what a difference it would make.

I blame the voters for consistently electing governments that are soft on fraud. Also, on people like you and I, who see it as someone else's problem, and don't do their utmost to pursue the villains who are robbing us all.

Of course, it would be easier to blame it on Johnny Foreigners.... but I'm not sure that the easiest way is always right or best

SC

[sustento]

This thread of course has all the socialo-commies coming out.

I believe the state, in addition to good free education and "80-20" healthcare, has to guarantee equality of opportunity and has to provide a minimum "safety net" for people who don't have anything.

But this safety net should not include more than pocket money and it should be uncomfortable enough (such as sharing a room with 3 other people in state-sponsored accommodation) to motivate people to earn their money by working.

EXACTLY.

And unfortunately it's getting no better, according to a parliamentary question this week, out of 8,700 benefit claimants who were convicted of fraud, only 5% finished up in prison,some for only a short period of time,even though the amount they falsely claimed was in some cases very high.

Do you really think it's sensible or cost effective to imprison benefit fraudsters when it costs £40,000 a year to keep them in prison?

[StreetCowboy]

This thread of course has all the socialo-commies coming out.

I believe the state, in addition to good free education and "80-20" healthcare, has to guarantee equality of opportunity and has to provide a minimum "safety net" for people who don't have anything.

But this safety net should not include more than pocket money and it should be uncomfortable enough (such as sharing a room with 3 other people in state-sponsored accommodation) to motivate people to earn their money by working.

EXACTLY.

And unfortunately it's getting no better, according to a parliamentary question this week, out of 8,700 benefit claimants who were convicted of fraud, only 5% finished up in prison,some for only a short period of time,even though the amount they falsely claimed was in some cases very high.

Do you really think it's sensible or cost effective to imprison benefit fraudsters when it costs £40,000 a year to keep them in prison?

They could cut the knackers off every second fraudster and force the alternate ones to eat them, by way of warning. It's not that expensive with sheep

[HardenedSoul]

Come on now,it's still no justification for heading to Thailand to become a Boiler Room Billy and bilking gullible pensioners out of their life savings though is it?

Nope but that IS what you did, isn't it?

Couldn't you cut it as a TEFLer, then?

Oh I forgot,you're a "Legitimate daytrader",aren't you?

So which trading platform do you use then?Is your broker an STP or ECN broker?Which indicators do you use?And do you use Level 2 trading?

Again,I won't hold my breath for your answer!

Ha

Not that I owe you any explanation, you chiseler but I trade through personal accounts held at Alpari, ODL Markets (now FXCM), Finspreads and CMC Markets all in the UK

Alpari are ECN, FXCM provide Straight Through Processing both of them on MT4 platform while CMC and Finspreads are just spreadbetting accounts with proprietary, web-based platforms.

I swing trade using price action on candle charts. Level 2 quotes - pure overkill, useless market noise unless you're looking to benefit from the tiniest movement in the price of a stock. I'm not

The overwhelming majority of indicators just cloud the picture. Momentum, volume, MACD do me just fine and afford me a very comfortable life here in downtown BKK without having to scam hard-working expats into moving their pensions to the shifty providers you and your cold-calling ilk at De Vere-like "financial consultant" companies peddle.

[metisdead]

A post insulting another member has been removed as well as the replies. A racist nonsense post was removed as well.

[sustento]

This thread of course has all the socialo-commies coming out.

I believe the state, in addition to good free education and "80-20" healthcare, has to guarantee equality of opportunity and has to provide a minimum "safety net" for people who don't have anything.

But this safety net should not include more than pocket money and it should be uncomfortable enough (such as sharing a room with 3 other people in state-sponsored accommodation) to motivate people to earn their money by working.

EXACTLY.

And unfortunately it's getting no better, according to a parliamentary question this week, out of 8,700 benefit claimants who were convicted of fraud, only 5% finished up in prison,some for only a short period of time,even though the amount they falsely claimed was in some cases very high.

Do you really think it's sensible or cost effective to imprison benefit fraudsters when it costs £40,000 a year to keep them in prison?

They could cut the knackers off every second fraudster and force the alternate ones to eat them, by way of warning. It's not that expensive with sheep

Cost the NHS a fortune...

[StreetCowboy]

...

They could cut the knackers off every second fraudster and force the alternate ones to eat them, by way of warning. It's not that expensive with sheep

Cost the NHS a fortune...

Doesn't cost a lot with sheep...

[sustento]

...

They could cut the knackers off every second fraudster and force the alternate ones to eat them, by way of warning. It's not that expensive with sheep

Cost the NHS a fortune...

Doesn't cost a lot with sheep...

I suspect that leaving benefit fraudsters bleeding out in a field would cause a bit of a commotion.

[StreetCowboy]

Cost the NHS a fortune...

Doesn't cost a lot with sheep...

I suspect that leaving benefit fraudsters bleeding out in a field would cause a bit of a commotion.

Elastration is quick, clean, and almost painless, except for the sheep

[StreetCowboy]

It would be a big incentive to take a job....

[sustento]

How could you get to interviews with a laccy band round your knackers? You wouldn't be able to walk.

[manarak]

This thread of course has all the socialo-commies coming out.

I believe the state, in addition to good free education and "80-20" healthcare, has to guarantee equality of opportunity and has to provide a minimum "safety net" for people who don't have anything.

But this safety net should not include more than pocket money and it should be uncomfortable enough (such as sharing a room with 3 other people in state-sponsored accommodation) to motivate people to earn their money by working.

EXACTLY.

And unfortunately it's getting no better, according to a parliamentary question this week, out of 8,700 benefit claimants who were convicted of fraud, only 5% finished up in prison,some for only a short period of time,even though the amount they falsely claimed was in some cases very high. And these are the numbers that they even considered it viable to prosecute, many,many more got away with just a slap on the wrist, not to mention those whom the authorities do not know about.

Just think about it, if all this STOLEN money could be used in education and health care, what a difference it would make.

The fraudsters are just a logical by-product of the current systems - I really do not see the point of getting angry with them - the main fault is the system itself.

In a well-thought out social system, fraud would be almost inexistent, because the welfare would be too inconvenient for fraudsters.

Edited December 15, 2013 by manarak

[stoli]

The welfare system has destroyed the UK. Most of the people who would have taken the lower paid jobs (quite gladly) refuse to do this work now because they can get as much or more in benefits. This is a great waste of their life but also means the UK has no one to do these basic jobs (except more immigrants who in turn will soon turn to a life on benefits).

I had no idea than the same problem exists in the U.K. as it does in the U.S. Previously owing a restaurant, employees would quit for no reason and still get unemployment insurance and food stamps for doing nothing. This is an epidemic that is getting worse under the current president. It will eventually burst at the seams as there won't be enough money to pay them all, and it is going to destroy the country. And yes, some of these lazy people were not even citizens of the US.

[Rooo]

Off topic posts & responses removed.

[soomak]

When I see frail, gaunt elderly women picking through trashcans I think there's something wrong with a society that doesn't provide for them in their old age. The concept that in Thai society family will always support you doesn't always work. There is definitely a need for a better social security safety net here.

The notion that the family is the social security existed all over the world up to a hundred years ago or so.

Now the country replaced the family, at least in all developed countries.

In Thailand it will take another 50 years, maybe more.

[soomak]

There is welfare for people assessed with a disability. 500baht a month.

There is wefare for elderly people also 500 baht a month.

There is Universal Health Care for all Thais.

500 baht a month wouldn't get you anything. Maybe food for 5 days if you live off rice and vegetables.

Just for comparison:

In my home country an elderly person receives 16,000 baht a month from the state, and a couple would receive over 20,000. That doesn't include his/her pension if they have any.

In Thailand you either have a family to take care of you, or you have to beg for money. The state does not help.

Edited December 15, 2013 by soomak

[samran]

Great work guys. Two posts in and someone managed to bring up an immigrant bash.

Anti immigrant immigrants. As always, you blokes are a special breed.

Now, back to the cricket.