US, Chinese warships in near collision

[jpinx]

The US has security agreements with countries in the area. We were not in Chinese waters, at least not as recognized by the people we have security agreements with.

Unfortunately those agreements are not with all the countries in the area -- only some of them.

[Credo]

I very much doubt the US has been in undisputed Chinese waters without the permission of the Chinese gov't.

[boomerangutang]

I went back and reread the CNN report of the incident (http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/13/politics/us-china-confrontation/index.html?iref=allsearch) and while it is not totally clear, it appears that the Chinese ship was on course to cross the bow of the Cowpens and that the Cowpens had to do an All Stop (i.e. reverse engines to slow the ship) in order for the Chines ship to pass in front of it. David

There's a battleship maneuver called 'crossing the T.' All surface military ships want to avoid an adversarial ship 'crossing its T' which effectively renders the ship representing the leg of the T, vulnerable to the superior number of guns available alongside the ship representing the cap of the T. With contemporary weaponry, it has become mostly an out-moded concept, but nevertheless, mariners are still spooked by it happening to their ship. In the incident of the OP, it sounds like the USN ship's T was crossed, but more riveting was the chance of a collision. The last time battleships experienced a crossed T in war, was when US Navy battleships crossed the T of the approaching Japanese battleships, at the Philippines near the end of WWII. It's probably the last time that will ever happen, as large battleships are considered archaic nowadays.. Edited December 21, 2013 by boomerangutang

[hawker9000]

I went back and reread the CNN report of the incident (http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/13/politics/us-china-confrontation/index.html?iref=allsearch) and while it is not totally clear, it appears that the Chinese ship was on course to cross the bow of the Cowpens and that the Cowpens had to do an All Stop (i.e. reverse engines to slow the ship) in order for the Chines ship to pass in front of it. David

There's a battleship maneuver called 'crossing the T.' All surface military ships want to avoid an adversarial ship 'crossing its T' which effectively renders the ship representing the leg of the T, vulnerable to the superior number of guns available alongside the ship representing the cap of the T. With contemporary weaponry, it has become mostly an out-moded concept, but nevertheless, mariners are still spooked by it happening to their ship. In the incident of the OP, it sounds like the USN ship's T was crossed, but more riveting was the chance of a collision. The last time battleships experienced a crossed T in war, was when US Navy battleships crossed the T of the approaching Japanese battleships, at the Philippines near the end of WWII. It's probably the last time that will ever happen, as large battleships are considered archaic nowadays..

Sorry, but as interesting a piece of history as this is, it's got nothing to do with the training of US deck watchstanders or the manner in which US naval ships manage surface contacts on the high seas. Nothing. Of immeasurably greater relevance are the International Rules of the Road. While this sounds at first blush like a classic "crossing" situation, giving rise to rules for the "stand-on vessel" and the "give-way" vessel, the CNN report simply doesn't provide enough detail to work out all of what transpired prior to Cowpens having to reverse engines in order to avoid collision (a near in-extremis situation). What does seem clear is that Cowpens was shadowing the Chinese carrier in international waters (as US carriers were routinely shadowed by Russian "fishing trawlers" throughout the Cold War - nothing illegal or provocative about it under existing international law) when the Chinese decided to try & run Cowpens off. This incident then ensued.

[Publicus]

quote

The Cowpens did have the right of way but a missile cruiser is more difficult to maneuver than is the much smaller, faster and lower in the water tank landing craft.

/quote

How can you state that with such certainty? Were you there ?

quote

It's just not encouraging however that the PLA Navy (PLAN) collects its officers from the Army, as does the PLA Air Force, not from formal service academies - incredulously, the CCP-PRC does not have either a bone fide naval or air force academy. This weakness of institutional competency makes the reckless naval stunt against the Cowpens an especially risky and dangerous action.

/quote

Don't be too superior - Pride comes before a fall. USA makes it's fair share of mistakes in many ways. For example by putting a known drunken womanizer in charge of nuclear missiles and letting him represent USA in Russia

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-25460660#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa

quote

Again Impeccable's powerful water cannon cleared the two MF ships and the wood from its path and it continued to sail on. The wild CCP-PRC provocation occurred about 75 miles from Hainan Island which has a new large PLAN base from which and in direct contravention of the UN International Law of the Sea it sends MF ships to establish bases on islands in the EEZs of the Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia.

/quote

I take it that you will have no problem when a chinese or russian ship parks 75 miles off some interesting port facility on USA coast and collects "data".

I have some links for you:

http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/thread-612382-1-1.html

http://www.molossia.org/chinese.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahuika_crater

ref -- 11 Gavin Masters "1434" and "1421" published by Harper collins. (William Morrow)

Maybe I'll also PM a copy of my troll Report for you to read.

The CCP's aircraft carrier claimed a defensive zone twice the size of the US state of Rhode Island, a naval claim that is on a par with Beijing's ridiculous claim of sovereignty over almost all of the South China Sea to include international waters and the EEZs of several Asean countries, all of which are in direct contravention of the UN International Convention on the Law of the Sea. So to say the CCP-PRC has an exaggerated notion of itself in relation to its neighbors and in its dismissive disregard of the global maritime commons might be an understatement.

That the CCP-PRC does not have a bone fide naval academy or a bona fide air force academy, and that both arms of the CCP military cherry pick officers for each from the PLA speaks directly and factually to the absence of an institutional competence concerning the PLA, the PLAN, ,the PLA-AF. There's no overstatement In this nor is there an understatement, there's only fact.

A PLA naval vessel operating in international waters off a coast of the United States would get all of its surveillance equipment jammed. That's just fact. Moreover, when we speak of the United States and the CCP-PRC we're not speaking apples and apples. We're speaking apples and arsenic. In other words, there's no moral neutrality in the comparison.

I notice you remained silent concerning the PRC Maritime Force sailors losing their shirts in their five ships on one unfortunate confrontation with the USNS Impeccable in the South China Sea a while back.

Tip: during the next day or two I'll be posting about the PRC Maritime Force run-in with the USNS Victorious. I'm letting you know in advance in case you might want to bone up on it to make a response when the time comes.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Publicus

[jpinx]

quote

The Cowpens did have the right of way but a missile cruiser is more difficult to maneuver than is the much smaller, faster and lower in the water tank landing craft.

/quote

How can you state that with such certainty? Were you there ?

quote

It's just not encouraging however that the PLA Navy (PLAN) collects its officers from the Army, as does the PLA Air Force, not from formal service academies - incredulously, the CCP-PRC does not have either a bone fide naval or air force academy. This weakness of institutional competency makes the reckless naval stunt against the Cowpens an especially risky and dangerous action.

/quote

Don't be too superior - Pride comes before a fall. USA makes it's fair share of mistakes in many ways. For example by putting a known drunken womanizer in charge of nuclear missiles and letting him represent USA in Russia

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-25460660#sa-ns_mchannel=rss&ns_source=PublicRSS20-sa

quote

Again Impeccable's powerful water cannon cleared the two MF ships and the wood from its path and it continued to sail on. The wild CCP-PRC provocation occurred about 75 miles from Hainan Island which has a new large PLAN base from which and in direct contravention of the UN International Law of the Sea it sends MF ships to establish bases on islands in the EEZs of the Philippines, Vietnam, Brunei, Malaysia.

/quote

I take it that you will have no problem when a chinese or russian ship parks 75 miles off some interesting port facility on USA coast and collects "data".

I have some links for you:

http://bbs.chinadaily.com.cn/thread-612382-1-1.html

http://www.molossia.org/chinese.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahuika_crater

ref -- 11 Gavin Masters "1434" and "1421" published by Harper collins. (William Morrow)

Maybe I'll also PM a copy of my troll Report for you to read.

The CCP's aircraft carrier claimed a defensive zone twice the size of the US state of Rhode Island, a naval claim that is on a par with Beijing's ridiculous claim of sovereignty over almost all of the South China Sea to include international waters and the EEZs of several Asean countries, all of which are in direct contravention of the UN International Convention on the Law of the Sea. So to say the CCP-PRC has an exaggerated notion of itself in relation to its neighbors and in its dismissive disregard of the global maritime commons might be an understatement.

That the CCP-PRC does not have a bone fide naval academy or a bona fide air force academy, and that both arms of the CCP military cherry pick officers for each from the PLA speaks directly and factually to the absence of an institutional competence concerning the PLA, the PLAN, ,the PLA-AF. There's no overstatement In this nor is there an understatement, there's only fact.

A PLA naval vessel operating in international waters off a coast of the United States would get all of its surveillance equipment jammed. That's just fact. Moreover, when we speak of the United States and the CCP-PRC we're not speaking apples and apples. We're speaking apples and arsenic. In other words, there's no moral neutrality in the comparison.

I notice you remained silent concerning the PRC Maritime Force sailors losing their shirts in their five ships on one unfortunate confrontation with the USNS Impeccable in the South China Sea a while back.

Tip: during the next day or two I'll be posting about the PRC Maritime Force run-in with the USNS Victorious. I'm letting you know in advance in case you might want to bone up on it to make a response when the time comes.

Thanks but no thanks Whilst your input is interesting, I was talking about the principles involved, not the details of water-cannons and shirtless sailors The notion that China has an "exaggerated notion of itself in relation to its neighbors "(sic) is equally applicable to Russia and USA.

[VegasVic]

All the US has to do to crush China is to put a 30% tariff on anything imported into the US from China.

Already the US is figuring out how to manufacture things cheaper using technology. Add to that the cost of shipping raw materials to China and then shipping back finished product. Now add in the cost of sending Americans to China to set up and supervise the manufacturing plants so that there is American quality instead of Chinese junk. Already a lot of manufacturing is returning to the US from China.

Start with 3D printing. Now look at the computerized clothing manufacturing which will make, label, and package clothing without human intervention making cheap Chinese labor irrelevant too expensive.

Just do it. Apply that 30% tariff and manufacturing coming back to the US would change from garden hose to a huge river, and China's pockets would be turned inside out.

And once the Chinese close their laundrettes and washing parlours, we will all be smelly and starving

The Chinese hold about $1.3T of the US national debt (which is a bit less than one quarter of the total - it so happens Japan holds about $1.1T btw). I'm not sure whether they're still buying our debt or not, but I don't think either China OR the US wants, really, to upset the applecart... The 2 economies sort of need each other.

The relationship between the U.S. and China is indeed a symbiotic one for the time being, however given the outlook for the next 5 years (the U.S. becoming a net exporter of energy, the 3D printing revolution and the crash of the Chinese banking system) the U.S. definitely has the upper hand economically and of course militarily it has always been a no contest

[VegasVic]

Truth is, China has run its economy into the ground on a scale that the US has never known through manipulation of its currency and artificially inflating GDP with loans that can never be repaid. Their banking reserves are beyond bunk. The pollution and class disparity is also problematic, but censored.

You are correct, the Chinese banking system could crash at any time and when it does the rest of the fairytale will unravel and the world will see rioting on a scale never witnessed before in human history The Chinese will have so many internal problems to deal with that sabre rattling will be the last thing on their minds

[VegasVic]

I still believe that China's belligerence in SE Asia is designed to impress its own people, and remove attention from its failed economic and social policies.

Bank of America warns against coming China debt storm

FBN's Jo Ling Kent on Bank of America advising clients to take out default insurance against China debt.

FBN Video

BINGO, and the trophy goes to never sure for cutting through the nonsense and getting to the truth

[Jay Sata]

The problem is they view Bama as weak or without sufficient backing or support to do anything. They are simply exploiting this . . .

Need to look back over your recent history. In a similar situation in 2001, W not only let the Chinese hold the 24 US servicemen (and women) for 10 days, the US then paid for their keep and issued a "sorry about that" letter to win their release.

Then they let the Chinese pore over the top secret equipment for a couple of months before sending a Russian Antonov to retrieve the pieces- AFTER paying the Chinese to dis-assemble the super secret plane.

I'm not an Obama fan, but his foreign relations have been a world of improvement over W. It will take 50 years to undo the damage his administration did- if ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

The Hainan Island episode was 100% the fault of the US and their regular spying missions aimed at the submarine base on the island.

The aircraft was stuffed full of spying equipment and experts. Let's not forget that a Chinese pilot died in the incident.

As others have said if the Chinese or Russians were operating the same missions nearby the US the American military would get rattled.

Bush,Rumsfeld and all the other redneck warmongers achieved nothing. Look at Iraq and Afghanistan which are both failed missions and in the case of the former has fomented terrorism in the Middle East and elsewhere.

The recent exposure of the mass snooping by the USA and GCHQ on half the world is a prime example of who the bully boys are.

Obama is trying to reign in the forces let loose by the Republicans and their Fox News friends.

[F430murci]

The problem is they view Bama as weak or without sufficient backing or support to do anything. They are simply exploiting this . . .

Need to look back over your recent history. In a similar situation in 2001, W not only let the Chinese hold the 24 US servicemen (and women) for 10 days, the US then paid for their keep and issued a "sorry about that" letter to win their release.

Then they let the Chinese pore over the top secret equipment for a couple of months before sending a Russian Antonov to retrieve the pieces- AFTER paying the Chinese to dis-assemble the super secret plane.

I'm not an Obama fan, but his foreign relations have been a world of improvement over W. It will take 50 years to undo the damage his administration did- if ever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

The Hainan Island episode was 100% the fault of the US and their regular spying missions aimed at the submarine base on the island.

The aircraft was stuffed full of spying equipment and experts. Let's not forget that a Chinese pilot died in the incident.

As others have said if the Chinese or Russians were operating the same missions nearby the US the American military would get rattled.

Bush,Rumsfeld and all the other redneck warmongers achieved nothing. Look at Iraq and Afghanistan which are both failed missions and in the case of the former has fomented terrorism in the Middle East and elsewhere.

The recent exposure of the mass snooping by the USA and GCHQ on half the world is a prime example of who the bully boys are.

Obama is trying to reign in the forces let loose by the Republicans and their Fox News friends.

I have never been a GW fan, but failed missions?

One would have to ask what were the objectives? We had just experienced planes being flown into the towers, Pentagon and but for the heroic acts of many passengers, the White House would likely have been hit.

I would say the objectives were to get OBL, remove Sadam and weaken AQ to prevent further terrorist acts on US soil. I would say that we accomplished all 3. If we were like Russia or China, we would have pulled out immediately after capturing Sadam, but in typical US fashion we tried to help stabilize Iraq after accomplishing our objectives and it has become a disaster.

NSA activity is no different than activity by Russia, China, Germany, GB, France, Israel et al. Everyone is collecting data and spying on everyone else so, under your rationale, everyone is a bully.

Being a bully is a good idea in today's world because there are a lot of whackos out there that are jealous of our success and way of life that seek to do us harm. Being a bully is necessary for deterrence and national security.

Edited December 22, 2013 by F430murci

[Publicus]

The poster thinks the following is an asset.

China makes everything and has the one thing that made America great. A lot of people.

China has 1,361,770,000 people.

India has 1,238,020,000

Sorry to upset you but the USA is not in the billion people league coming in at

317,314,000

AS for standard of living I guess you've never been to Shanghai?

Or Detroit?

As your statement quoted above presents to us, the CCP-PRC has the largest population of the world, India is a close second soon to become the largest, and the United States is the third most populous.

I say again, the United States is third - population 317 million.

Fourth is Indonesia @ 267 million. Germany is 16th @ 80.5 million, Thailand is 21st @ 67 million, South Africa is 25th at 52 million and so on.

In other words, of the roughly 200 countries of the world, only the CCP-PRC and India, respectively, have more than 1 billion people - and climbing. In each country people are crawling over one another.

No countries of the world even remotely approach the population of either the CCP-PRC or of India.

The CCP-PRC and India are in a tier of population of their own.

The USA and Indonesia are in a second tier.

Then the vast number of countries group into several tiers, ranging from Germany, to Thailand, to South Africa and then below South Africa.

The CCP-PRC is destroying itself with pollution of the environment and pollution of its government and politics. The line every PRChinese sheeple learns in school from day one to the final day in grade 12 is that China is so big only the Communist Party and its dictatorship can rule it.

Indeed, looking at world population data, we now have 7 billion people headed soon to 9 billion. The PRC has one-fifth of the 7 billion, India has one-sixth of it.

More people live on a peninsula in Northeast China the size of Texas than live in the United States.

China and India are freak of nature countries and they are suffering severely for it. And so are the rest of us on this spaceship we call earth.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts deleted.

[Bpuumike]

The poster thinks the following is an asset.

China makes everything and has the one thing that made America great. A lot of people.

China has 1,361,770,000 people.[/size]

India has [/size]

1,238,020,000[/size]

Sorry to upset you but the USA is not in the billion people league coming in at [/size]

317,314,000[/size]

AS for standard of living I guess you've never been to Shanghai?[/size]

Or Detroit?[/size]

As your statement quoted above presents to us, the CCP-PRC has the largest population of the world, India is a close second soon to become the largest, and the United States is the third most populous.

I say again, the United States is third - population 317 million.

Fourth is Indonesia @ 267 million. Germany is 16th @ 80.5 million, Thailand is 21st @ 67 million, South Africa is 25th at 52 million and so on.

In other words, of the roughly 200 countries of the world, only the CCP-PRC and India, respectively, have more than 1 billion people - and climbing. In each country people are crawling over one another.

No countries of the world even remotely approach the population of either the CCP-PRC or of India.

The CCP-PRC and India are in a tier of population of their own.

The USA and Indonesia are in a second tier.

Then the vast number of countries group into several tiers, ranging from Germany, to Thailand, to South Africa and then below South Africa.

The CCP-PRC is destroying itself with pollution of the environment and pollution of its government and politics. The line every PRChinese sheeple learns in school from day one to the final day in grade 12 is that China is so big only the Communist Party and its dictatorship can rule it.

Indeed, looking at world population data, we now have 7 billion people headed soon to 9 billion. The PRC has one-fifth of the 7 billion, India has one-sixth of it.

More people live on a peninsula in Northeast China the size of Texas than live in the United States.

China and India are freak of nature countries and they are suffering severely for it. And so are the rest of us on this spaceship we call earth.

Edited December 23, 2013 by SeaVisionBurma
Fixed up/removed wrongly quoted

[folium]

The poster thinks the following is an asset.

China makes everything and has the one thing that made America great. A lot of people.

China has 1,361,770,000 people.

India has 1,238,020,000

Sorry to upset you but the USA is not in the billion people league coming in at

317,314,000

AS for standard of living I guess you've never been to Shanghai?

Or Detroit?

As your statement quoted above presents to us, the CCP-PRC has the largest population of the world, India is a close second soon to become the largest, and the United States is the third most populous.

I say again, the United States is third - population 317 million.

Fourth is Indonesia @ 267 million. Germany is 16th @ 80.5 million, Thailand is 21st @ 67 million, South Africa is 25th at 52 million and so on.

In other words, of the roughly 200 countries of the world, only the CCP-PRC and India, respectively, have more than 1 billion people - and climbing. In each country people are crawling over one another.

No countries of the world even remotely approach the population of either the CCP-PRC or of India.

The CCP-PRC and India are in a tier of population of their own.

The USA and Indonesia are in a second tier.

Then the vast number of countries group into several tiers, ranging from Germany, to Thailand, to South Africa and then below South Africa.

The CCP-PRC is destroying itself with pollution of the environment and pollution of its government and politics. The line every PRChinese sheeple learns in school from day one to the final day in grade 12 is that China is so big only the Communist Party and its dictatorship can rule it.

Indeed, looking at world population data, we now have 7 billion people headed soon to 9 billion. The PRC has one-fifth of the 7 billion, India has one-sixth of it.

More people live on a peninsula in Northeast China the size of Texas than live in the United States.

China and India are freak of nature countries and they are suffering severely for it. And so are the rest of us on this spaceship we call earth.

There is nothing new or unusual about Asia having the largest share of global population. See below for stats since 1750.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:WorldPopulation.png

The Chinese population is likely to shrink from 2030, as its sub-replacement Total Fertility Rate (<2.1) kicks in. By 2100 its population is estimated to be 941million compared to India's projected 1550 million. The US (est. 478million) will by then be no longer third having been superseded by Nigeria with 729million (!!).

The top 10 will then be rounded out by Tanzania, Pakistan, Indonesia, DR Congo, Philippines and Brazil. Seven out of 10 of the next most populous countries are estimated to be African (Uganda, Kenya, Ethiopia, Zambia, Malawi, Niger, & Sudan).

China's demographic issue is going to be that of an ageing nation. The first ever country to hit ageing before becoming wealthy. The real threat of booming demographics is going to be experienced in India and even more so in African countries such as DRC, Tanzania, Nigeria, or Malawi given their state of governance.

[Scott]

Off-topic post and posts with technical problems have been deleted.

Please stay on topic.

[F430murci]

Sad, with that many people their GDP per person is completely sad.

-----

America's economy will stay atop the world for at least another 14 years.

A new study says China won't eclipse the U.S. economy until 2028, much later than some analysts have suggested.

http://m.nbcnews.com/business/chinas-economy-wont-eclipse-americas-until-2028-study-says-2D11810756

[Publicus]

The CCP-PRC military budget this year - the visible part of it - is in the neighborhood of USD value $200 billion.

The CCP spends more than that on its domestic security apparatus, the People's Armed Police which is in fact the Party's armed police against the People.

The eastern half of the CCP-PRC, the developing half, has a huge and growing property market bubble in an amount so incomprehensibly monstrous and catastrophic I won't bother to present it.

The state owned banks, which is all of them, are in a huge credit bubble. The shadow banking system, which funds the private sector, is staggering under its huge debt load and credit bubble.

The thousands of municipal governments are buried in debt equal to 40% of GDP and can no longer access the state banking system which by the way wants its money back from these very governments that can't pay.

No bubble anywhere anytime ever ends well. When the first bubble bursts, the others will come cascading immediately after it.

Because of endemic and massive corruption that also is unfathomable in its size, and due to the party-state-corporate-military-industrial complex, the only place the CCP-PRC economy is going is straight into a great wall.

Ouch.

[boomerangutang]

Sad, with that many people their GDP per person is completely sad.

America's economy will stay atop the world for at least another 14 years.

A new study says China won't eclipse the U.S. economy until 2028, much later than some analysts have suggested.

http://m.nbcnews.com/business/chinas-economy-wont-eclipse-americas-until-2028-study-says-2D11810756

China's economy won't ever 'eclipse' the US economy, even with US so heavily reliant on debt. I think China has reached close to its apex of economic expansion.

For all its faults, the US economy will continue to be strong. Two of several reasons why: US has a lot of popular franchises worldwide, and there is still quite a bit of innovativeness coming from Americans. Granted, the US won't make any revenue from things they give away, like data/photos of space from NASA projects, their do-good organizations (like Red Cross, etc) or their GPS satellite network. For its part, China is doing next to nothing regarding innovations, it has no franchises, and does nearly nothing to assist countries outside its borders, except well-publicized hand-outs - when trying to gain natural resources.

[NeverSure]

The US will continue to be strong because it keeps bringing in innovation. It is also soon to become the world's leading exporter of oil.

So many people confuse the government (public sector) with the private sector, and the private sector is rolling in, and sitting on, money.

The government itself owns so many assets in the form of natural resources that it doesn't touch that it is astonishing.

The private sector keeps pushing ahead with innovation, and manufacturing is returning to the US.

3D printing, and computerized manufacturing which requires no human intervention will make cheap 3rd world labor obsolete. To the contrary, the US is exporting its franchises all over the world. Walmart now has more stores outside the US than inside.

The US owns technology from the computer to the smartphone to the internet and it just keeps improving it with new innovation.

The US is growing and expanding in the private sector and it is silly to predict its demise. It's actually getting more powerful.

[Scott]

@Neversure:

It is also soon to become the world's leading exporter of oil.

I think you mean producer?

[boomerangutang]

One downside of being an innovator, is the ease in which copiers, like China (and Thailand) can replicate others' innovations - and skirt around paying royalties. They can justify it as easily as a Bible-thumpers can justify threatening non-believers with eternal damnation.

[mumjokmok]

Lucky there wasn't a collison cos I heard the Chinese warships carry those antiquated hydrogen peroxide torpedoes that explode when other vessels come into close proximity.

Didn't they fly some super sonic plane over the country when Robert Gates was there a couple of years ago? Might have been a special treat for Mr Biden, try to make him blaspheme or something....

Edited December 29, 2013 by mumjokmok

[mumjokmok]

Sad, with that many people their GDP per person is completely sad.

America's economy will stay atop the world for at least another 14 years.

A new study says China won't eclipse the U.S. economy until 2028, much later than some analysts have suggested.

http://m.nbcnews.com/business/chinas-economy-wont-eclipse-americas-until-2028-study-says-2D11810756

China's economy won't ever 'eclipse' the US economy, even with US so heavily reliant on debt. I think China has reached close to its apex of economic expansion.

For all its faults, the US economy will continue to be strong. Two of several reasons why: US has a lot of popular franchises worldwide, and there is still quite a bit of innovativeness coming from Americans. Granted, the US won't make any revenue from things they give away, like data/photos of space from NASA projects, their do-good organizations (like Red Cross, etc) or their GPS satellite network. For its part, China is doing next to nothing regarding innovations, it has no franchises, and does nearly nothing to assist countries outside its borders, except well-publicized hand-outs - when trying to gain natural resources.

The US has that super powerful navy and any actual naval dispute might end in a couple of big splashes, a hurrah and a round of budweisers.

[Tchooptip]

And some people still wondered why there are wars again and again for thousands of years on the planet...with behaviours like that go figure

[Tchooptip]

Maybe of interest to some here.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/22070c2264b7

Maybe of interest to some here.

Yes Thanks

[Publicus]

Maybe of interest to some here.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/22070c2264b7

Maybe of interest to some here.

Yes Thanks

The PLA Navy gets its commanders from the PLA. There isn't any PRC naval academy as such. The CCP-PRC takes army officers and puts them in command of the PLANavy and the PLA-Air Force.

This is not only a mismatch of competency, it's a gross incompetence of leadership from the CCP in Beijing right on down through the officer corps.

The CCP's military will never equal that of the United States no matter how much money they spend.

Capt. Kirk Takes Command Of Hot New Ship – Really! USS Zumwalt Sails

http://breakingdefense.com/2013/10/capt-kirk-takes-command-of-hot-new-ship-really-uss-zumwalt-sails/

Edited December 30, 2013 by Publicus

[boomerangutang]

Sometimes 'old tech' or analog technology can cause as much - or more destruction. Remember the USS Cole? it was a rinky dink little Arab boat (a dhow?) that came up alongside, and POW! destruction and death. I could build a catapault using lengths of PVC pipe lashed together - which could toss a bomb over a 50ft. high wall. If the US armed forces wanted to do that, they would need an expensive digital contraption. One bad apple on an aircraft carrier, with one hand-grenade, could disable the carrier by tossing it in the steam propulsion rail bed.

[Scott]

Off-topic post deleted.