Is Chiang Mai growing too fast?

[smurph]

Read interesting article earlier on how fast Chiang Mai is growing with two major malls this year, way more traffic and rising rent prices...

Thailand’s second city sees much growth, but will it retain its heart? - http://asiancorrespondent.com/117304/thailands-second-city-sees-much-growth-but-will-it-retain-its-heart/

Are we going to lose our quality of life? Personally I'm not too worried, but would be interested to hear people's thoughts.

[BlackArtemis]

Grid locked traffic from 5-7pm on Nimman, Canal, and some areas around the moat. Little to no attention paid to traffic patterns, zoning, environmental factors such as ground water, and erosion, clear cutting of vegetation and lowering the albido of the area, and no foreseeable mass transit plans. People only interested building and paying off the right people, rampant growth, etc.

I hate it when you look at Maya or that new condo on Suthep and Sirimunkalajarn and realize if the goverment had simply pulled eminent domain and demanded that an extra lane of traffic was added, trafic patterns would have been eased greatly.

Also, a piss poor police force who lack in numbers and funds. Then again, if they actually worked at policing the roads their coffers would be overrunning....

I plan on returning to the US next year due to family reasons, and while I am goign to miss CM with all my heart, i know that if I do return as planned for good, CM might no longer be on the list, but rather Phayao or Nan.

[Chicog]

Grid locked traffic from 5-7pm on Nimman, Canal, and some areas around the moat. Little to no attention paid to traffic patterns, zoning, environmental factors such as ground water, and erosion, clear cutting of vegetation and lowering the albido of the area, and no foreseeable mass transit plans.

They have a mass transit plan. But usual story....

[BlackArtemis]

I don't consider a shoddy bus system, tuk tuk drivers and red truck drivers as a mass transit system. I consider it a feeble attempt at providing mass transit.

We will need a subway or skytrain in 5-8 years, but these morons probably won't start planning on building on until 5-8 years...

[Oscar2]

it is HORRIBLE what is happening here! all the beautiful natural resources are being depleted. i can't wait until the economic bubble bursts and many go under , lose everything, and many of the junk building are demolished. then some of the scruff will be thinned out.

[Frank James]

"lowering the albido of the area"

Artemis, not trying to be a spelling weenie here, but what is "albido"? I looked it up, but it wasn't in my Websters. Just curious. No offense.

The town is definitely in a runaway boom phase. When you really look around inside Kad Suan Kaew mall, formerly a prestigious "shopping destination", there's a shocking amount of empty space. Just up the traffic-choked road is "Maya". Out the highway is Central Festival. Then there's Promenada. Have we reached saturation yet on malls and condos?

All these new condos means (I think) that a lot of the old ones will now get sub-let for cheap. Good for low end guys like me.

I can't believe CM will ever have a sky train or subway, and I'm OK with that. Songtaews and tuks are good for those of limited means.

[BlackArtemis]

Oscar: I really hate to "wish" these kinds of things to happen as often times the average layman ends up with the worst of it, but i really feel it's the last emergency brake we have left.

[Oscar2]

Oscar: I really hate to "wish" these kinds of things to happen as often times the average layman ends up with the worst of it, but i really feel it's the last emergency brake we have left.

BA, believe me i gave some thought before expressing my true feelings for fear of nasty comments that would follow, but as you said -- it's our only hope of saving what was once a wonderful and charming place to live.

[BlackArtemis]

"lowering the albido of the area"

Artemis, not trying to be a spelling weenie here, but what is "albido"? I looked it up, but it wasn't in my Websters. Just curious. No offense.

The town is definitely in a runaway boom phase. When you really look around inside Kad Suan Kaew mall, formerly a prestigious "shopping destination", there's a shocking amount of empty space. Just up the traffic-choked road is "Maya". Out the highway is Central Festival. Then there's Promenada. Have we reached saturation yet on malls and condos?

All these new condos means (I think) that a lot of the old ones will now get sub-let for cheap. Good for low end guys like me.

I can't believe CM will ever have a sky train or subway, and I'm OK with that. Songtaews and tuks are good for those of limited means.

I am sorry, I wrote that too fast. It should be Albedo. The Albedo is the measurement of whiteness or reflection coefficient. So White snow reflects a lot of the sun's rays and radiation back, where as black asphalt brings them in. Now, Thai's usually build with concrete and even use it in their roadways, so the albedo would actually be higher than grass trees and dirt. But trees also create water vapor through evapotranspiration which plays a large part in global or local cooling effect.

So it's a weird situation, the clear cutting of rice fields and trees to make way for concrete is actually an increase in albedo and therefore should lead to a cooling effect, but then you've taken away a large production of water vapor, thus lowering it.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

This picture that accompanies the article could have been taken in 1993, 20 years ago, as both buildings (Ram Hosptial and Sri Tokyo hotel) were already there 20 years ago.

And similar articles have in fact been written 20 years ago, and I'm sure will be rewritten again 20 years into the future. I remember the 1992 or so Nancy Chandler map whining about the 'monstrosity' shopping mall being built in town. (Yes, Central KSK)

In fact it is noteworthy that it is hard to take such a picture inside the old town, as high-rise development is not permitted there, so town planning is in fact pretty sensible. Not too many Thai towns (or Asian towns) are protected in that way, so we are fortunate, relatively speaking. All the development is in Nimman BECAUSE it is a suburb with no noteworthy historical sites. So over-development there is *just* *fine*. Leave that area to the people who appreciate creating a mini-Bangkok; if they're hell-bent on f&*king something up: great, let them do it there. And along the Superhighway. Because the alternative is having Maya right across from Wat Chedi Luang. Think about it.

So.. hard to take the article too seriously. But if enough people say it makes sense or adds an interesting perspective then I may still read it.

Edited December 18, 2013 by WinnieTheKhwai

[Chicog]

I don't consider a shoddy bus system, tuk tuk drivers and red truck drivers as a mass transit system. I consider it a feeble attempt at providing mass transit.

We will need a subway or skytrain in 5-8 years, but these morons probably won't start planning on building on until 5-8 years...

Could you not see that map? It's supposed to be some kind of metro railway.

[BlackArtemis]

I don't consider a shoddy bus system, tuk tuk drivers and red truck drivers as a mass transit system. I consider it a feeble attempt at providing mass transit.

We will need a subway or skytrain in 5-8 years, but these morons probably won't start planning on building on until 5-8 years...

Could you not see that map? It's supposed to be some kind of metro railway.

Didn't see it on my mobile, saw it now on my PC. I remember that thread from a year ago or so.

[Chicog]

Originally spun in 2006....

http://2bangkok.com/2bangkok-masstransit-chiangmain.html

[ARISTIDE]

That's a mighty good picture there. As a young person of 41 years I think Chiang Mai is expanding and growing in a good way. Airport is going to be a problem soon though, it need to expand or move to accommodate more passenger airline from overseas.

This picture that accompanies the article could have been taken in 1993, 20 years ago, as both buildings (Ram Hosptial and Sri Tokyo hotel) were already there 20 years ago.

And similar articles have in fact been written 20 years ago, and I'm sure will be rewritten again 20 years into the future. I remember the 1992 or so Nancy Chandler map whining about the 'monstrosity' shopping mall being built in town. (Yes, Central KSK)

In fact it is noteworthy that it is hard to take such a picture inside the old town, as high-rise development is not permitted there, so town planning is in fact pretty sensible. Not too many Thai towns (or Asian towns) are protected in that way, so we are fortunate, relatively speaking. All the development is in Nimman BECAUSE it is a suburb with no noteworthy historical sites. So over-development there is *just* *fine*. Leave that area to the people who appreciate creating a mini-Bangkok; if they're hell-bent on f&*king something up: great, let them do it there. And along the Superhighway. Because the alternative is having Maya right across from Wat Chedi Luang. Think about it.

So.. hard to take the article too seriously. But if enough people say it makes sense or adds an interesting perspective then I may still read it.

[watcharacters]

it is HORRIBLE what is happening here! all the beautiful natural resources are being depleted. i can't wait until the economic bubble bursts and many go under , lose everything, and many of the junk building are demolished. then some of the scruff will be thinned out.

.

Do you really feel it requires such drastic measures?

[Chicog]

There are already plans to move the airport. I believe to land owned by *cough* influential people.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I know the plans for moving it, though to me it seems it can grow quite a bit in the current location. Just build loads more gates on either side of the current ones. The single runway seems just fine for the foreseeable future, and it is plenty long for the regional flights Chiang Mai gets. (it's too short to fly a 777-300ER direct to New York or whatever, but airlines even gave up on doing that from Bangkok, so... can't see much demand doing serious long-haul from Chiang Mai. Flights within Asia (incl. middle east) can depart from CNX just fine.

[ARISTIDE]

Real problems with taxi services at night. Some International flights I had arrived at night and no taxi available...

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

At some point the development will be self limiting as congestion brings the area to a crawl.

I really like the various new malls. I am on Huay Kaew and the new Maya is going to be great.

I can easily walk to it and eliminate many motorbike or songthaw trips.

What's wrong with that?

[northernjohn]

At some point the development will be self limiting as congestion brings the area to a crawl.

I really like the various new malls. I am on Huay Kaew and the new Maya is going to be great.

I can easily walk to it and eliminate many motorbike or songthaw trips.

What's wrong with that?

What's wrong with it is that you can also easily walk to KSG. Have you even considered how to cross the street at the new Mall. I guess it will be easy with the traffic at a standstill.

In my opinion you are correct as to the self limiting congestion bringing the area to a crawl. The problem with that is it will just spread outwards. Why just screw up three square Kilometers when you can screw up 40. For the life of me I do not see how they can create a usable rapid transportation for the whole city just a small part of it. They would need massive parking areas in the suburbs also more Songthaew's and tuck tuck's at there terminus. It leaves huge parts of the city as is.

Also how much of the local traffic will it hinder. What Chiang Mai needs is a city planner who would personally have to OK any new building. Also they would be set back far enough from the road for future widening.

Try driving down the Chiang Mai Lamphun road from the Navarat bridge to the Nakorn Ping bridge or the superhighway at rush hour. You will notice there is no room to expand the road or put in a rapid transit system with out tearing down the buildings on one side of the road. This is only one tiny example of what they are facing now. So far It dosen't really look like they are going to ever address the problem. Just talk about one little part of the town while they let the rest of it grow with no thought to the future.

Yes Chiang Mai is growing to fast slow down and fix the problems it all ready has. Besides I think it is big enough as it is.

[Cnxforever]

Chiang Mai has been growing steadily with most development now outside the city along the ring roads.

When I came to Chiang Mai around 1990 the "outer limit" was the "super highway" or first ring road anything beyond was considered countryside. The Amari Rincome Hotel was considered far away from the city center back then. Tantraphan was the place to shop before KSK opened.

I lived in Chang Phuak back then - and remember the excitement when the first Rimping Supermarket was built along Chotana Road as it was within walking distance of the house I rented.

Development started KSK being built and some condos along Huay Kheo Road and was interrupted by the financial crises in 1997. After recovery Chiang Mai exploded with the building of 2 more ring roads and the rapid development around them.

2000 I moved to San Sai - riding a motorbike back then the 1001 or Mae Jo Road was "mine" most of the time - hardly any traffic worth speaking off - today it is almost as bad as in the city.

Ruam-Chok and Rimping / Meechok Plaza did not exist back then - it was a meadow! Then came the 3rd ring road 121 and the development with it enormous housing estates like L&H, Chook-Varee, Lagunna, Siriporn - Chiang Mai has been growing rapidly in all directions for many years now.

I wish they would have started building a subway 20 years ago because traffic is getting worse and worse every year.

I moved on to Doi Sakhet - peaceful and quite there - the new Central Festival and the development that will come around it - within easy reach I have the best of both worlds now - quite country living, a few nice little restaurants around me, a lovely coffee shop - and now Northern Thailand's largest shopping mall within a 15 minute drive no need to go into the city at all anymore.

Chiang Mai will keep growing in the foreseeable future. Students from 8 different provinces studying here many never return back home but stay in Chiang Mai starting families, finding jobs, starting businesses. There is no end in sight.

The trick is to move on if you can - away from heavily populated areas and choose quality of life over "what's hip". If you run a business in the city you don't have much choice of course.

Let's hope the people in charge will start thinking ahead and find a solution for a city-wide, clean, sustainable mass transport system which would benefit Chiang Mai tremendously.

[searcher22]

I'm looking forward to the new Maya too. I went back to the KSK shopping mall today after being away six months, and it had a depressing, end-of-an-era feel to it. I'm not planning to go back. I also visited the new Festival Mall which I found nice except for the noisy and cold food court near the skating rink.

[Oscar2]

I went back to the KSK shopping mall today after being away six months, and it had a depressing, end-of-an-era feel to it. I'm not planning to go back.

oh come on,. there is no "depressing, end of an era feel" to Kad Suan Kaew. that's total nonsense. how melodramatic. it feels the same today as it did 10 years ago -- and is as busy as ever. the new shopping malls didn't make a dent in the business there. c'ya....more room to park for others. doubt they will miss y'all...

[Ulysses G.]

And similar articles have in fact been written 20 years ago, and I'm sure will be rewritten again 20 years into the future. I remember the 1992 or so Nancy Chandler map whining about the 'monstrosity' shopping mall being built in town. (Yes, Central KSK)

Just what I was thinking. I used to tell people to move to Chiang Rai if Chiang Mai was too big, but never got any takers.

[anonymouse]

I moved on to Doi Sakhet - peaceful and quite there - the new Central Festival and the development that will come around it - within easy reach I have the best of both worlds now - quite country living, a few nice little restaurants around me, a lovely coffee shop - and now Northern Thailand's largest shopping mall within a 15 minute drive no need to go into the city at all anymore.

Chiang Mai will keep growing in the foreseeable future. Students from 8 different provinces studying here many never return back home but stay in Chiang Mai starting families, finding jobs, starting businesses. There is no end in sight.

The trick is to move on if you can - away from heavily populated areas and choose quality of life over "what's hip". If you run a business in the city you don't have much choice of course.

Let's hope the people in charge will start thinking ahead and find a solution for a city-wide, clean, sustainable mass transport system which would benefit Chiang Mai tremendously.

Yes I live in Doi Saket as well and agree we have the best of both worlds, we hardly need to cross the river any more. we could do with a decent bar in Doi Saket but that is all that is missing. I think this is the future of a lot of Chiang Mai and its environs where people won't really bother leaving the suburbs.

The ideal for Chiang Mai would be to somehow pedestrianize the Old City and keep as is but this is never going to happen.

[worgeordie]

The expansion of Chiang Mai has its good and bad parts,when I first

came here it was difficult to find many things for the house,had to fly

to Bangkok to get a cooker hood,now you can get almost anything

here now,so thats the good part.

The bad part is the traffic,and I hope the Electricity,Water,Refuse

collection,companies are planning ahead for all the increased

demand for their services,but as usual with Thailand ,planning

for the future is not a strong point,they usually wait till something

goes horrible wrong,make a big fuss,then try and do a quick fix.

one thing that should have been in place by now is an integrated

transport system,but the all powerful Bht buses will not allow it ! !.

Does Chiang Mai really need more shophouses!,I thought the British

were a nation of shopkeepers,but what is happening here is ridiculous.

regards Worgeordie

[CobraSnakeNecktie]

At some point the development will be self limiting as congestion brings the area to a crawl.

I really like the various new malls. I am on Huay Kaew and the new Maya is going to be great.

I can easily walk to it and eliminate many motorbike or songthaw trips.

What's wrong with that?

What's wrong with it is that you can also easily walk to KSG. Have you even considered how to cross the street at the new Mall. I guess it will be easy with the traffic at a standstill.

In my opinion you are correct as to the self limiting congestion bringing the area to a crawl. The problem with that is it will just spread outwards. Why just screw up three square Kilometers when you can screw up 40. For the life of me I do not see how they can create a usable rapid transportation for the whole city just a small part of it. They would need massive parking areas in the suburbs also more Songthaew's and tuck tuck's at there terminus. It leaves huge parts of the city as is.

Also how much of the local traffic will it hinder. What Chiang Mai needs is a city planner who would personally have to OK any new building. Also they would be set back far enough from the road for future widening.

Try driving down the Chiang Mai Lamphun road from the Navarat bridge to the Nakorn Ping bridge or the superhighway at rush hour. You will notice there is no room to expand the road or put in a rapid transit system with out tearing down the buildings on one side of the road. This is only one tiny example of what they are facing now. So far It dosen't really look like they are going to ever address the problem. Just talk about one little part of the town while they let the rest of it grow with no thought to the future.

Yes Chiang Mai is growing to fast slow down and fix the problems it all ready has. Besides I think it is big enough as it is.

I cross the Rincom intersection on foot or bicycle all the time. There is a traffic light and cross walk so really not a problem.

Sure I walk to KSK also but Maya is significantly closer so much more convenient and easy walk.

They build 7-11's everywhere so people don't have to travel. Why not malls also?

BTW does anyone know what the other building (blue) will be?

Maya even has a huge TV screen I can watch. Now if I could only get a remote control for it.

[FolkGuitar]

Maya may be convenient, but I imagine that if I lived on the west side of Hillside 4, I'd feel as if I were in an old B-movie about some guy moving into a $2-a-night flop house, with a neon sign flashing on and off projecting a garish light show into my windows at night. I live further away down Huay Kaew but can see Maya's big screen tv flashing at night when we go out into the hall to take the elevator. I feel sorry for all the people who will be subjected to this lighting every night. It might be nice if they projected a good movie or music video, but it seems to be just advertising. Hmmm.... maybe not a old B-movie but the beginning of 'Blade Runner.' Is that where Chiang Mai is headed?

[FiftyTwo]

With all the excess building, rents seem to be lowering.

I agree with the shop-houses comments though, who the hell wants them at 3-5M each or 10-15k+/month rent, how can anyone actually make a profit running a small business from one of them. Hundreds being built everywhere, most unsold/unrented.

Traffic,

Yep, it's a problem for old foreigners driving Fortunas, everyone else on their m/cs, no problem.

Edited December 19, 2013 by FiftyTwo

[aTomsLife]

And similar articles have in fact been written 20 years ago, and I'm sure will be rewritten again 20 years into the future. I remember the 1992 or so Nancy Chandler map whining about the 'monstrosity' shopping mall being built in town. (Yes, Central KSK)

Just what I was thinking. I used to tell people to move to Chiang Rai if Chiang Mai was too big, but never got any takers.

With congestion at its current level, it appears those who wrote similar articles 20 years ago were actually quite prescient. I do, however, see the other point you allude to: The writing's been on the wall a long time already, as far as development is concerned.